Nodeserver Migration to ISY on Polisy

[mbking]

I currently have ISY on Polisy version 5.1.1 running and have begun moving some of my production loops to the new ISY.  These are independent loops, mostly time based, so if there are any issues, it's not a big deal.  So far so good.  5.1.1 seems pretty solid.  Note: For a variety of reasons, I'm choosing to manually move my Insteon and Z-Wave devices over to the new ISY.

The next step will be to move my node servers to the new ISY.  Are there any recommendations on how to do this given a new version of Polyglot is in the works?  Can I simply change the address and port in Polyglot 2 to the new ISY to get those nodes to show up there and then upgrade to Polyglot 3 when it's available.  Or should I wait for Polyglot 3 and just reinstall everything?  Some of my schedule for all of this depends on Push Notifications being added to UD Mobile, but I'd like to be building some idea of how all of this will happen.

Thoughts from the experts?

Mark

[bpwwer]

Both PG2 and PG3 can run simultaneously on the Polisy.  However, PG3 and PG2 node servers are not compatible. Moving to PG3 will require installing new node servers that are written for PG3.  There are no plans to provide an automated migration of node servers.

Currently the PG3 node server store has 31 node servers available and the PG2 node server store has 112 node servers available.  Work is underway to reduce that gap.  

PG3 is not yet functionally complete, but it's close.  I believe it is about 2 releases away from being moved from an Alpha quality product to a Beta quality product.  It will remain beta until all existing node servers (that can be) are available in the PG3 node server store.

[asbril]

6 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

Both PG2 and PG3 can run simultaneously on the Polisy.  However, PG3 and PG2 node servers are not compatible. Moving to PG3 will require installing new node servers that are written for PG3.  There are no plans to provide an automated migration of node servers.

Currently the PG3 node server store has 31 node servers available and the PG2 node server store has 112 node servers available.  Work is underway to reduce that gap.  

PG3 is not yet functionally complete, but it's close.  I believe it is about 2 releases away from being moved from an Alpha quality product to a Beta quality product.  It will remain beta until all existing node servers (that can be) are available in the PG3 node server store.

Can you explain to me as I am confused by the terminology ?

Is PG3 versus PG2 the same issue as getting ISY on Polisy, or are these unrelated ?

In other words, can I upgrade to PG3 even though ISY on Polisy is not yet ready ?

[bpwwer]

@asbrilThey are unrelated.  Polyglot is a program for managing node servers. 

PG2 - Polyglot version 2

PG3 - Polyglot version 3

ISY on Polisy is a replacement for the ISY 994i hardware

The Polisy hardware is capable of running all three (PG2, PG3, and ISY) applications

The 994i hardware is capable of only running the ISY application/firmware

[asbril]

2 hours ago, bpwwer said:

@asbrilThey are unrelated.  Polyglot is a program for managing node servers. 

PG2 - Polyglot version 2

PG3 - Polyglot version 3

ISY on Polisy is a replacement for the ISY 994i hardware

The Polisy hardware is capable of running all three (PG2, PG3, and ISY) applications

The 994i hardware is capable of only running the ISY application/firmware

Thanks. You just confirmed what I had understood. When is PG 3 available ?

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, asbril said:

Thanks. You just confirmed what I had understood. When is PG 3 available ?

A couple posts up he said:

16 hours ago, bpwwer said:

PG3 is not yet functionally complete, but it's close.  I believe it is about 2 releases away from being moved from an Alpha quality product to a Beta quality product.  It will remain beta until all existing node servers (that can be) are available in the PG3 node server store.

but we don't know how much time that equates to...

[bpwwer]

Nailing down a specific date for each milestone is difficult because everyone working on PG3 and porting node servers over is doing so in their spare time.

Most people using it today, are doing so simply to port node servers but a couple of people have been doing more 'real-world' testing.

I've been running a couple of instances of PG3 for most of this year.  We continue to find the occasional bug but overall, it has been stable.  But given that I have a lot more insight into the inner workings of it, I probably subconsciously avoid doing things that will cause issues (I.E. I'm a horrible test user).

Once we declare beta, it means I'm pretty confident that anyone can use it without major issues. That's also when I expect to get more bug reports as there will be minor issues.

As many of you are probably aware, one of the primary reasons for PG3 was to build in the capabilities that allow node server authors to charge and get compensated for their efforts. This is a big change and is also where we're likely to see issues initially. 

I'm going take this opportunity to try and do some quick market research.  Currently, we're seeing prices between free and about $15 per node server with a couple taking advantage of subscription pricing of like $5 a year.  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this pricing model.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

one of the primary reasons for PG3 was to build in the capabilities that allow node server authors to charge and get compensated for their efforts

Excellent. Not only does this reward the authors, but it also motivates to keep nodeservers up-to-date. Bravo !

[asbril]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

Currently, we're seeing prices between free and about $15 per node server with a couple taking advantage of subscription pricing of like $5 a year.  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this pricing model.

Very reasonable.

[Athlon]

45 minutes ago, asbril said:

Very reasonable.

Agreed

[Athlon]

Are there any PG3 Nodeservers that are not available in PG2?

[Bumbershoot]

2 hours ago, bpwwer said:

Currently, we're seeing prices between free and about $15 per node server with a couple taking advantage of subscription pricing of like $5 a year.  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this pricing model.

For nodeservers that directly control devices, this pricing model won't discourage me from any of the nodeservers I'm currently using, as they are generally a fraction of the cost of the controlled devices themselves.  If I have a single $50 device and have to spend $10 on a nodeserver to control it, then I might think about it.

Nodeservers that provide data to the ISY buy don't directly interact with devices (Sun, Timedata, Backup) would seem to be good candidates for the annual subscription model.  Nodeservers that directly control devices seem to be good candidates for a one-time payment model, similar to the devices themselves.  After all, I don't rent my devices, and I don't want to rent my ability to control them.

[mbking]

2 hours ago, bpwwer said:

I'm going take this opportunity to try and do some quick market research.  Currently, we're seeing prices between free and about $15 per node server with a couple taking advantage of subscription pricing of like $5 a year.  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this pricing model.

This pricing seems reasonable to me.  I will be happy to pay those prices to get the functionality.

[asbril]

11 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

For nodeservers that directly control devices, this pricing model won't discourage me from any of the nodeservers I'm currently using, as they are generally a fraction of the cost of the controlled devices themselves.  If I have a single $50 device and have to spend $10 on a nodeserver to control it, then I might think about it.

Nodeservers that provide data to the ISY buy don't directly interact with devices (Sun, Timedata, Backup) would seem to be good candidates for the annual subscription model.  Nodeservers that directly control devices seem to be good candidates for a one-time payment model, similar to the devices themselves.  After all, I don't rent my devices, and I don't want to rent my ability to control them.

I am not sure to agree. let's take the example of the Lifx ns. It controls devices and the ns may need to be updated if Lifx would change their App or API.  That requires work for the developer and I would not mind for paying for that. A developer may also add more features to a nodeserver.

On the other hand the Time/Date ns may never need an update, so why would we have to pay for a subscription ? It is not that I am opposed to it, but I am trying to see logic in the pay-to-play model.

As mentioned before, I am very much in favor to pay the developers.

[MrBill]

57 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I'm going take this opportunity to try and do some quick market research.  Currently, we're seeing prices between free and about $15 per node server with a couple taking advantage of subscription pricing of like $5 a year.  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this pricing model.

This is a hard question to answer.  All I can really say is "it depends", but I guess that requires some explanation.... so here goes some rambling discussion.......

First and foremost... one of the reasons I choose to the ISY platform to start with "all local, no subscriptions required, no add-on fee's"   I didn't mind paying $20 on-top for Mobilinc Pro, However I was instantly turned off by Mobilinc X when it was released because it required an annual subscription, and for that reason I never bought it.  Finally frustrated with Mobilinc Pro tho due to the "Already subscribed" bug I next invested in eKeypad, and later I bought Agave too. (turns out the "Already Subscribed" bug is caused by something unknown other than Mobilinc, but the problem really seems to be a Mobilinc bug and I lived with it a long time trying to resolve it).  So, over time I spent considerably on "add-ons", but as noted dislike annual fees....

But the fear of recurring fee's does have a pricepoint... For example: I have no problem subscribing the Portal at it's low rate of just ~$1.00 per month, I also like the two year subscription duration. 

So I favor a flat fee, with no recurring subscriptions, but in certain cases will buy a subscription.  Another disclosure I'll make is that I've actually made a few private payments to node server developers to get my "suggestions" moved higher on their priority lists.  I'm not bashful about offering incentives, that's happened multiple times in amounts like $30, $60 and $100 depending how badly I felt I needed the change/modification.

All that said tho... there's another economic factor in the mix.  I was originally attracted to Home Assistant because both @asbril and @carealtor were using it.   What I found when I got there tho, is that the UDI integration is amazing.  I was finally able to set up a mobile experience that has wife approval.. and she actually will use it....   while I try to make ISY the "center of the universe" in a couple of places I have delegated "control" to HA over the ISY.. in two cases what I need isn't available thru ISY/nodeserver, and in other the HA integration is just better than the ISY nodeserver.   All that said the core integration count for HA is sitting at 1860... that equates to 1860 nodeservers that are built in and free to use.. there's also 1000's more that are free but have to be added through the community store.  So all things considered this is a driving force in whether I'll buy a nodeserver or use the HA integration.  After all HA and ISY operate so well together they seem to be like Siamese twins....

TL;DR  Yes I'll pay... prefer 1 time charges over subscriptions, but will also evaluate all options before paying.

[asbril]

8 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Mobilinc

Ever since I discovered Home Automation and UD Mobile, Mobilinc is history for me. I paid for Mobilinc X, but I considered it a degression from Mobilinc Pro. I am not regretting having paid for Mobilinc, because the effort deserved compensation, but now I would not recommend Mobilinc to anyone.

On the other hand, I use HA largely for control of ISY, and have not looked in using HA for programming or integrations ( "nodeservers") other than Chromecast. As much as I like HA, my feeling is that UD Mobile may become my primary control, once it becomes browser friendly.

[MrBill]

8 minutes ago, asbril said:

Ever since I discovered Home Automation and UD Mobile, Mobilinc is history for me. I paid for Mobilinc X, but I considered it a degression from Mobilinc Pro. I am not regretting having paid for Mobilinc, because the effort deserved compensation, but now I would not recommend Mobilinc to anyone.

On the other hand, I use HA largely for control of ISY, and have not looked in using HA for programming or integrations ( "nodeservers") other than Chromecast. As much as I like HA, my feeling is that UD Mobile may become my primary control, once it becomes browser friendly.

I agree on mobilinc, I wouldn't send anyone that direction anymore.

as far as UD mobile, it's great, and I do use it for one off issues that I haven't built controls for in my HA dashboard.  I think for the most part HA will remain my mobile interface, but its absolutely awesome to have UD mobile and be able to reach devices, programs, NR's etc that I don't have controls built for.  On thing I love about HA is that I can use my laptop to "develop" the dashboard and then it can be used from mobile, wheras with UD mobile I have to hold my phone to "develop" or 'create all the favorites' and scaled down controls... I probably will just never get around to that, especially if I have to do it on the phone and not build it for use via the laptop.

I don't know what the case would be tho had UD mobile existed first.....

[bpwwer]

1 hour ago, Athlon said:

Are there any PG3 Nodeservers that are not available in PG2?

Yes.  I've added a couple of PG3 only node servers for integrating with smart meter energy monitors.  There might be a couple of others also, I haven't really looked.  Most are simple conversion from PG2 to PG3.

For some of mine, I've tried to make the PG3 version better in some way to help justify the price.  For example, the WeatherFlow node server for PG3 support the forecast data, the PG2 version does not.   The PG3 version of the Volumio node server supports multiple Volumio devices, the PG2 version supports only one.

[LarryCRetired]

I currently have 5 node servers running on my Polisy.  They are as follows:

• Tags
• OpenWeather
• Notifcation Node Server
• ISY Inventory
• TimeData

For the most part I do not like subscription based pricing and would probably stir clear of a node server priced that way  My experience only, is that I don't see that much value in updates unless there is a feature that makes my life easier. Maybe I am biased because I hate (strong word) the constant updates from Apple which sometimes made a well used and user friendly process more difficult.  

Of the 5 node servers I use, I would rather pay upfront for them and if there were updates, other than major bug related making the server unusable, let me decide if the update has value, and if so, pay for that update.

These 5 node servers have a lot of value for me and I honestly feel like I should have paid something for their use.   

 

  

[Bumbershoot]

3 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

For example, the WeatherFlow node server for PG3 support the forecast data, the PG2 version does not.

Thank-you for that.  It was already worth the price, this makes it even more so.

[bpwwer]

Thanks everyone for the info.  It was helpful to see that my pricing models seem to be aligned with expectations to most extents. Hopefully other node server authors will see this and get some value from it as well.

I do agree about preferring non-subscription pricing, but I can also envision some cases where it could be required. A node server that accesses data from a data service that requires a paid account and a monthly subscription to access the data would mean that monthly subscription cost would need to be passed to the node server purchasers.  Otherwise the node server author would end up paying out-of-pocket at some point.  

[bpwwer]

In no particular order, here's the list of node servers currently available in the PG3 store.

Airscape        JImBo                $10   Airscape Node Server
HusqvarnaMower  Bob Paauwe           $10   Husqvarna Mower: A node server for control of AutoMower
Timedata        Gordon Larsen        $5    An ephemeris nodeserver for Polyglot V3 on Polisy
PurpleAir       Bob Paauwe           $5    Add air quality data to the ISY994
WLED            AutomationGeek       free  Interface between WLED and PG3. 
AERISWeather    Bob Paauwe           free  Add AERISWeather service weather data to the ISY994
Roku            Bob Paauwe           $10   Control Roku media devices.
PythonTemplate  James Milne (Einstein.42) free  Template Node Server
Example-1       Bob paauwe           free  Example node server that simply increments a count. This is demonstrating how to create a simple node server that doesn't have a controller node and creates only a device node.
WeatherBit      Bob Paauwe           $5    Add weather data from WeatherBit.io. Includes current conditions and daily forecasts
NOAA            Bob Paauwe           $5    Add weather data to the ISY994
Daikin          James Paul           $5    Daikin Node Server to control Daikin Mini-Split System
AMINEM          Steven Bailey        $5 / 12month Net Energy Utility Meter for Landis+Gy & Oncor models you can set the devisor in custom parameter nem_oncor. 
WeatherLink     Bob Paauwe           $10   Pull weather data from a Davis weather station using WeatherLink Live's local device API.
UnifiPresence   AutomationGeek       $10   UniFi Device Network Presence Detection
Example-2       Bob paauwe           free  Example node server that simply increments a count. This is demonstrating how to create a simple node server that has only a controller node.
Climacell       Bob Paauwe           $5    Add weather data from Tomorrow.io. Includes current conditions and daily forecasts
Volumio         Bob paauwe           $10   Add control of Volumio media players
WeatherPoly     Bob Paauwe           $10   Receive weather data from locally configured station software like meteobridge, Cumulus, WeeWx, acuparse, etc.
Example-3       Bob paauwe           free  Example node server that creates a user specified number of counter child nodes.
Twinkly         AutomationGeek       free  Twinkly Light
WeatherFlow     Bob Paauwe           $10   Make WeatherFlow weather station data available to the ISY.
BASIRRIGATION   Steven Bailey        $5 / 12month Universal Devices WiFi Controlled irrigation controller, with optional local camera for up to thirty six (36) irrigation Zones. It utilizes up to six (6) Contemporary Controls BASpi-6u6r or the BASpi-Edge-6u6r.
Please see documentation.
Backup          Bob Paauwe           free  Save and restore lighting type device status
OpenWeatherMap  Bob Paauwe           $5    Add weather data from OpenWeatherMap.org. Includes current conditions and daily forecasts
RainMachine     Gordon Larsen        $20   Nodeserver for the Green Electronics RainMachine
BASPOOL         Steven Bailey        $15 / 12month Universal Devices Wifi Ethernet Pool Controller using the Contemporary Controls BASpi-6u6r or the BASpi-Edge-6u6r control Devices. 
You can have up to (6) pools using this Node Server and it is a great fit for a conventional Time Clock controlled pool upgrades.
Please see GitHub documentation for details on setup.
Acurite         James Paul           free  A Node Server for retrieving AcuRite Access Remote data for AcuRite devices
BASGARAGE       Steven Bailey        $5 / 12month WiFi Controlled Garage door opener momentary push button duplicator, with optional local camera for up to six (6) doors.
FlumeWater      JimBo                $10   FlumeWater Nodeserver
VUE             Bob paauwe           free  Monitor your smart meter with Emporia VUE
Sense           AutomationGeek       free  Sense Home Energy Monitoring
MySmartBlinds   AutomationGeek       free  MySmartBlinds *Only support Blind and required a Bridge*
Eagle-200       Bob Paauwe           free  Smart Home Energy Monitor. Monitor home electricity use.
AmbientWeather  Bob Paauwe           $10   Pull weather data from weather stations connected to Ambient Weather's ambientweather.net servers

 

[asbril]

What will this mean for me as I use the following nodeservers :

• Kasa
• MyQ
• Lifx
• Notifications
• ISY-Inventory
• Time-Date
• Harmony Hub
• AVRemote
• Holidays Google

I make intensive use of most of these.

Will nodeservers,  that have not been updated to the "pay"  format, still be available in PG 3 ?

[Jimbo.Automates]

I'm working on converting mine, but it's slow going, especially since I've been deep in the midst of converting PG2 kasa to use the newly released library which has been a lot more difficult to complete, and may need to push off those changes to PG3 version.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Athlon]

9 hours ago, Jimbo said:

I'm working on converting mine, but it's slow going, especially since I've been deep in the midst of converting PG2 kasa to use the newly released library which has been a lot more difficult to complete, and may need to push off those changes to PG3 version.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 

As someone with more Kasa devices than Insteon now (many hidden plugs, 2 switches and two 2 outlet devices) I'm ok for now using the network resource work-a-round. I say write the Node Server in PG3 - especially if it's within a few months of beta.

(My Insteon devices are mostly dimmers and bulbs.)