Is RadioRA3 the Ultimate Replacement For Insteon?

[simplextech]

6 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

O lord ... thank you very much for being so explicit. Now I know exactly when you were stung and by what. Not.

What?  You want exact date and times of when what broke or caused problems?  In a recent update Node.Js was updated along with everything else in the system.  This broke a PG2 nodeserver.  Is this widespread?  No.... NOBODY else develops any nodeservers in Node.js so nobody else noticed or cared.  The same type of issues has happened with Python updates in the past.

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@simplextech,

What you refer to was immediately caught and fixed from 17 to 17.01.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Less about the capabilities and more about how they are implemented. Because they are dealer installed they are not really available/affordable to Prosumers who might actually want some of the complex capability while dealers tend to avoid anything too wild to avoid the potential service issues. I am not saying these products are don't have capabilities but that they are rarely implemented to do anything very interesting.

The affordable part is very dependent on the size of the install.  It is possible to do a install for a average size home at only slightly higher cost than a typical DIY install.  The big difference in the cost is pay it upfront now for a full install which a lot of DIY can't/don't want to do.  Or build it up over time piece by piece which is how most DIY installs are done.

What "complex" capabilities are you thinking of?  Most of what the DIY systems think of as "complex" are just normal deployments for professional systems.  One major difference that includes larger costs is that professional systems are not going to install or support cheap devices that are prone to problems and lead to support calls. 

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

What you refer to was immediately caught and fixed from 17 to 17.01.

 

That was caught and fixed for PG3.  The move to 17 still broke a PG2 nodeserver and I think it's still broke.  I've sent a message to the nodeserver users and I'll wait and find out.  

Case in point still stands.  Updating the development runtimes as a bundle update with everything else leads to problems that could be avoided.

And why are we side-tracking the Ra 3 discussion so much on this?  This whole topic could be it's own thread.

[asbril]

29 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

O lord ... thank you very much for being so explicit. Now I know exactly when you were stung and by what. Not.

With kind regards,
Michel

the bees & birds of home automation.

[Michel Kohanim]

On 11/4/2021 at 6:37 PM, simplextech said:

Now is this possible with Python?  Yes.  BUT.... I never did this with Python or even with JavaScript because the underlying OS and development environment of Polisy is under too heavy of development itself and is constantly changing the versions of the runtime environments which makes it very difficult to compile against a specific version that will likely be gone on the next update.  Currently there is no structure or order to the development and release process.  I would rant about SDLC but I'm not sure that would mean anything to anyone else.

Above is the reason for the sidetrack. And, incidentally, I am not aware of the issue you are referring to with node.js and PG2. Perhaps you can submit an issue? You're welcome to make another topic for your "rant about SDLC" and everything that's wrong with our development/deployment methodology. I would be delighted to learn.

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

It is interesting the different groups represented here and the dramatic difference in priorities. While it would be nice to identify the best automation protocol and best controller to serve all or most of these use cases I'm beginning to think there is no chance for that kind of consolidation simply because the requirements are so different and to some extent mutually exlusive.

The first group (in no particular order) is the "Integrators" who are well represented here and who favor super reliable systems that have a low liklihood of generating service calls. This group is well served by protocolos like RadioRA and C3 which are rock solid but don't really do very much. Once you get past setting scenes by varying the relative dim levels of a group of lights and triggering those scens by timers or geofencing or keypad buttons you have pretty much exhausted their bag of tricks. The device selection tends to be limited for retrofit situations where you need to rely on fixture modules and other special parts to complete your install, focusing instead primarily on dimmers, switches, and keypads. The controllers from Lutron, RTI, C4, etc, likewise are reliable but pretty basic in adding security cameras, touch screens, thermostats, and rudimentary music control into the mix but not really doing anything very exciting, whether due to platform limitations or simply by design to keep things simple and avoid service headaches. These systems tend to seem both expensive and incredibly boring to the other groups.

The next group is the "Hardcore Hobbyist". These are the folks flashing light switch firmware with Tasmota, building custom hardware interfaces with Arduinos and Ras-Pi's, sifting through pages of code on Github, and writing their own Node servers. This group will gladly spend hundreds of hours creating a custom $6 module to automate a light switch rather than pay $30 for a plug and play unit from Amazon. This is the group best served by products like Home Assistant, Shelly, and Sonoff, which demand a level of time commitment that the other groups are not interested in making.

Another group is the "Perpetual Entry Level Consumer". These are the folks who go to Home Depot or Best Buy to pick up a few switches or bulbs that will work with Alexa. If they are particularly ambitious they might go for a video doorbell or smart thermostat but they don't want to commit to anything that can't be completed in a weekend and likely will never expand into anything more complex. If they ever do upgrade their system it will just be replaceing what they have with a new set of entry level products. Wi-Fi and Zigbee (Hue) are targeting these folks and this probably also the target demographic for Matter. Because this group is so large and lucrative it has a huge influence on what automation products are produced and what the capabilities and limitations of those products and their associated eco-systems are.

Then there is the "Casual Hobbyist" group. These are the folks using Smarthings or Hubitat or even advanced routines in Alexa. They are looking to do more than the entry level products offer out of the box. They are comfortable with "trigger plus conditions" type logic but do not have the tech savvy or tme to go full "Hardcore Hobbyist". This group uses Z-Wave and Zigbee and higher end Wi-Fi (Lifx) to create cool custom actions to meet their specific needs and are willing to expand and tweak their systems on an ongoing basis but not to the point where it consumes all of their spare time. 

Finally there is the "Prosumer" group. These are folks who like to do fairly elaborate things with Home Automation but not down to the technical level of "Hardcore Hobbyists"  nor at the limited simplistic level of "Casual Hobbyists". They want hardware that works out of the box but also want a logic engine that can handle complex nested "if-then" and "or" commands. They want this extended logic in a GUI interface without having to resort to manual scripting so their time is focused on the logic rather than syntax and debugging. They want to integrate with a wide variety of things beyond wireless protocols and expect dry contact inputs and relay outputs and serial connectivity as well. They are generally comfortable with MQTT and Node Red but not neccessarily Python or Json. This group often starts with Smartthings or Hubitat and then migrates to Homseer or Polisy. 

So what are the upcoming protocols and standards and platforms that are finally going to consolidate the Home Automation universe and end the market fragmentation and uncertainty we are now experiencing? Is improvement even possible without leaving one group or the other abandoned?

Can't believe I'm saying this but for once I agree with what you're saying, albeit with some caveats. Ra is generally a control system used for integrating with other systems so there is a lot of limitations with that. 

C4 can do alot more but most installers (including myself) use it as a control system to avoid people headaches. The more you do, the greater the likelihood of something going wrong as you've already stated. While the Isy can do more, performance wise, there's a huge gap between the 2 overall.... But that does come at a cost. 

I don't see any 1 system fitting all the different customers out there without leaving multiple groups out. Businesses exists for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only.... To make money!

High end systems cater to those with more money than time so they will always exist for that group. The entry level group is by far the largest segment, easiest to please, and the lowest entry point. This includes casual user and products do not need to do much to please them. Prosumer and hardcore hobbyists are the 2 that gets left out due to higher expectations. It's sad to say but this is where it's headed now. When I look around, I see this happening now. The amount of products geared towards prosumer and beyond has dwindled greatly. 

[upstatemike]

9 minutes ago, simplextech said:

What "complex" capabilities are you thinking of?  Most of what the DIY systems think of as "complex" are just normal deployments for professional systems.  One major difference that includes larger costs is that professional systems are not going to install or support cheap devices that are prone to problems and lead to support calls. 

One example is I have a large home that is mostly guest areas that I rarely visit so I create automations that help alert me to issues that might otherwise go unresolved for quite awhile before I happen along to notice them. If a guest leaves a toilet running because the handle stuck I wouldn't realize until I notice the softner cycling more often than normal so I fix that by having water level sensor in the toilet tank. If the sensor is dry for a period much longer than it takes for the tank to refill normally after a flush i am alerted to go check on it. Very much a prosumer one off kind of application that no integrator would want to offer because of the initial fiddling to get the detection right plus the risk of callbacks on something like that.

Another pet peeve is music integration, For me the very minimum basic basic requirements for a music system is:

-Must provide good multi-room performance... no glitching or sync issues and no time delay on local sources.

-Must support local library as well as streaming

-Must have at least 4 levels of hierarchical priority 1 emergency messages like fire alarms, 2 alerts like doorbels and driveway sensors, 3 local to that room music and voice assistant interaction, and 4 shared multi-room music program. Each level should automatically override anything playing from lower level sources.

-Must have true voice assistant integration... not the half assed integration you get from the API offered from Sonos etc. All voice assistant audio should utilize the sound system speakers, not just music. 

-Program muting or ducking for voice assistant interaction or playing of alarms or alerts should work regardless of program source, whether local or shared multi-room.

-Muting and ducking functions should be smart enough to work automaticlly if a phone rings or is picked up, a TV is turned on, or the room becomes unoccupied, all without disrupting music in other rooms. 

None of these are hard but in most of the high end systems I have seen there are a couple of keypad buttons to select music mode or TV mode and that's it. Voice assistant integration is limited to the restrictions of a poor API from Sonos or Heos or whatever and the integrator has no desire to offer or maintain anything more complex. 

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

I have no idea about MQTT and Node Red  so I guess that I have to go back to home automation school if I ever want to be a Prosumer.

Don't feel bad, I am in the same boat. I need to get up to speed on both of these next year after getting past a long list of other overdue projects. It will be awhile before I achieve my Prosumer certification!

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

so I fix that by having water level sensor in the toilet tank.

that is interesting.  Most would handle that with a flow meter at the source and if it's outside of normal range alert.  For the in take level sensor I would definitely go with a wired sensor for reliability but that's just me.  Curious what sensor you use today though.

As for the music functions.  Please explain how you accomplish that whole thing with whatever DIY system you have as I'm sure others would be interested.

The hard part of your music example is the voice assistant piece.  Most pro systems don't have much interest or care of integrating with Alexa, Google, Siri, because of the high level of support due to "cloud" problems that do occur and those result in support calls which are outside of the control of anyone.  Recently I've seen a lot more deployments of Josh.AI which can be a local system removing the cloud reliability issues.  Now this system is also very expensive.  Flip side the cloud integration with Alexa, Google is possible but most dealers again don't like to do it because of support but if the money is right they will install and support it.

[DAlter01]

21 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

One example is I have a large home that is mostly guest areas that I rarely visit so I create automations that help alert me to issues that might otherwise go unresolved for quite awhile before I happen along to notice them. If a guest leaves a toilet running because the handle stuck I wouldn't realize until I notice the softner cycling more often than normal so I fix that by having water level sensor in the toilet tank. If the sensor is dry for a period much longer than it takes for the tank to refill normally after a flush i am alerted to go check on it. Very much a prosumer one off kind of application that no integrator would want to offer because of the initial fiddling to get the detection right plus the risk of callbacks on something like that.

Another pet peeve is music integration, For me the very minimum basic basic requirements for a music system is:

-Must provide good multi-room performance... no glitching or sync issues and no time delay on local sources.

-Must support local library as well as streaming

-Must have at least 4 levels of hierarchical priority 1 emergency messages like fire alarms, 2 alerts like doorbels and driveway sensors, 3 local to that room music and voice assistant interaction, and 4 shared multi-room music program. Each level should automatically override anything playing from lower level sources.

-Must have true voice assistant integration... not the half assed integration you get from the API offered from Sonos etc. All voice assistant audio should utilize the sound system speakers, not just music. 

-Program muting or ducking for voice assistant interaction or playing of alarms or alerts should work regardless of program source, whether local or shared multi-room.

-Muting and ducking functions should be smart enough to work automaticlly if a phone rings or is picked up, a TV is turned on, or the room becomes unoccupied, all without disrupting music in other rooms. 

None of these are hard but in most of the high end systems I have seen there are a couple of keypad buttons to select music mode or TV mode and that's it. Voice assistant integration is limited to the restrictions of a poor API from Sonos or Heos or whatever and the integrator has no desire to offer or maintain anything more complex. 

Life is WAY to short to try and work all of this into a multi-room audio system.  Since there are probably only three people in the United States that would want to pay to make all of this happen, the demand for the capabilities to make this happen within the separate systems isn't going to exist for a long time (maybe never). 

If I were to describe to an integrator that I wanted to make all of that happen and for it to work perfectly, I suspect my phone calls would stop being returned.  Alternatively, they would think, Ok, we can do it, I'll have one of my guys start working on it full time.  In about 18 months, we should have a working prototype.  Can I get a retainer of $250k to get started on the initial phase of development.  In about 6 months, I should have a basic strategy worked out at which time I'll bill for the next phase of development.

Edited November 7, 2021 by DAlter01

[asbril]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Don't feel bad, I am in the same boat. I need to get up to speed on both of these next year after getting past a long list of other overdue projects. It will be awhile before I achieve my Prosumer certification!

On a more serious note,  with the help from UD and from many of you, I have made an enormous progress  since moving in 2014 from X10 to ISY then first to Insteon + Zwave and now Zwave with  numerous additions (nodeservers, wifi etc). This forum is pure gold for me.

[upstatemike]

1 minute ago, simplextech said:

that is interesting.  Most would handle that with a flow meter at the source and if it's outside of normal range alert.  For the in take level sensor I would definitely go with a wired sensor for reliability but that's just me.  Curious what sensor you use today though.

As for the music functions.  Please explain how you accomplish that whole thing with whatever DIY system you have as I'm sure others would be interested.

The hard part of your music example is the voice assistant piece.  Most pro systems don't have much interest or care of integrating with Alexa, Google, Siri, because of the high level of support due to "cloud" problems that do occur and those result in support calls which are outside of the control of anyone.  Recently I've seen a lot more deployments of Josh.AI which can be a local system removing the cloud reliability issues.  Now this system is also very expensive.  Flip side the cloud integration with Alexa, Google is possible but most dealers again don't like to do it because of support but if the money is right they will install and support it.

A flow meter tells me there is a problem someplace. A toilet sensor tells me the what and where of the problem. 

I'll provide a diagram of the music system if anybody is interested but it basically involves using relays and separate components and not just relying on a boxed solution with a lame API to link to.

[upstatemike]

7 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Life is WAY to short to try and work all fo this into a multi-room audio system.  Since there are probably only three people in the United States that would want to pay to make all of this happen, the demand for the capabilities to make this happen within the separate systems isn't going to exist for a long time (maybe never).  If I were to describe to an integrator that I wanted to make all of that happen and for it to work perfectly, I suspect my phone calls would stop being returned.  Alternatively, they would think, Ok, we can do it, I'll have one of my guys start working on it full time.  In about 18 months, we should have a working prototype.  Can I get a retainer of $250k to get started on the initial phase of development.  In about 6 months, I should have a basic strategy worked out at which time I'll bill for the next phase of development.

Which is exactly why products for Integrators don't work for Prosumers and Vice Versa.

[DAlter01]

Just now, upstatemike said:

Which is exactly why products for Integrators don't work for Prosumers and Vice Versa.

Though, in looking at the "definitions" you are not a Prosumer.....

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Which is exactly why products for Integrators don't work for Prosumers and Vice Versa.

Well actually they do.  As a lot of the products evolve from the requests of users.  Example RTI recently released their RTI Music solution.  Which fills in some of the most requested gaps of distributed music playing https://www.rticontrol.com/rti-music

There are always going to be fringe cases that some integrators won't touch but others will because it's a fun challenge.  They can then bundle/package it for the next customer.  Keeps things interesting.

Ra 3 is an example of Lutron taking the requests and interests of the "prosumer" users and from their "dealers" and trying to combine them.  It provides a dealer install system that has much more "user" configuration options and full control (after training).  Ra 3 is bridging the gap between Ra 2 and Caseta in many ways and I think RA2 Select will eventually be deprecated because of this.  

 

[upstatemike]

25 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Though, in looking at the "definitions" you are not a Prosumer.....

Aspiring Prosumer... I identify with that group but probably not there yet. What group do you picture me in?

[asbril]

18 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Aspiring Prosumer

This is in fact a great denominator for what some of us are

[DAlter01]

31 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Aspiring Prosumer... I identify with that group but probably not there yet. What group do you picture me in?

Hardcore hobbyist prosumer that integrates and has a good sense of humor.  A man of many talents.

[DAlter01]

41 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Aspiring Prosumer... I identify with that group but probably not there yet. What group do you picture me in?

Since I don't fit the other boxes well, I figure I'm a beginner Prosumer.  If you are in the same Prosumer "group", you are teaching an advanced degree on ths subject and at the top 1/10th of 1%.

It's nice that you identify with us "little" people.

Edited November 7, 2021 by DAlter01

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Less about the capabilities and more about how they are implemented. Because they are dealer installed they are not really available/affordable to Prosumers who might actually want some of the complex capability while dealers tend to avoid anything too wild to avoid the potential service issues. I am not saying these products don't have capabilities but that they are rarely implemented to do anything very interesting.

You'd be surprised how much can be done with these systems even with minimal complexity. At least with C4, it's nothing for a press of button to start a movie, turn down lights, close shades, etc. Or if going to bed, arm the alarm, lock doors stuff which are the things most people would want. 

While you can do the same with the Isy, performance wise it's a whole different ball game. The speed at which it runs and smoothness can't be duplicated with diy. This isn't a knock but is similar to comparing the performance of a Corvette to a Ferrari. No matter how good the Vette may be, the Ferrari is in a different world. 

Diy systems are more capable than high end systems however for the simple fact is that they are designed for people do it want they want. That level of personalization isn't going to be for someone who's being paid to install something for someone that has to worry about performance, stability, and longevity. They are simply designed for 2 different segments.

Its like buying a vehicle to go offroading. Most people who want to go off roading aren't buying a luxury SUV for that purpose. They'll buy a Jeep and fix it up to do what they need. Can a Range Rover be used that purpose....yes! But who's paying 6 figures for that when a 30k Jeep can be fixed up for exactly what they want and do the same with extras. The Range Rover just looks better at it. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[randyth]

5 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Hardcore hobbyist prosumer that integrates and has a good sense of humor.  A man of many talents.

Hey, that's my dating app profile!

[silverton38]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:51 AM, upstatemike said:

But if Lutron is moving from Telnet to SSH with LEAP wouldn't that be a dead end? What is Hubitat doing about the change?

Lutron has no plans to discontinue the Telnet service.

[silverton38]

On 11/7/2021 at 9:03 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm with you on this one. I'd do insteon with the Isy in low cost installs but those were installations with very basic needs. The builder installed insteon in every home he built and customers could opt for programming as an upgrade or accept the house with standard control. Those systems were priced accordingly and those clients would not have been purchasing high end systems anyway so it didn't matter. 

I don't know how @silverton38prices his systems but either he's leaving alot of money on the table or overcharging by using diy systems for customers. The main reason I like C4 (and high end in general) is margin. I make more on the parts alone than i did doing a full install with insteon. 

I do hope ISY integration comes (hint hint ?) as I do like to look for ways to save customers money. The Isy is a reliable system so it would allow those who may want more than ra gives (but not willing to pay) to have a better experience at a lower cost.

I have a simple pricing model. $100 a switch plus $950 for hub(s) and setup and programming. I only do whole home integrations; partials have never worked well for me. Simple; customers know what the cost will be without much trouble. I also charge a $300 a year maintenance program which includes hub management fees that I have to pay plus a few hours year in programming ($250 and hour after that). The last thing I do is create an email address for the home. I actually do not give my customers an option to opt out of the email or the whole home.

 

So I have to make a profit somehow.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by silverton38

[silverton38]

3 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

I have a simple pricing model. $100 a switch plus $950 for hub(s) and setup and programming. I only do whole home integrations; partials have never worked well for me. Simple; customers know what the cost will be without much trouble. I also charge a $300 a year maintenance program which includes hub management fees that I have to pay plus a few hours year in programming ($250 and hour after that). The last thing I do is create an email address for the home. I actually do not give my customers an option to opt out of the email or the whole home.

 

So I have to make a profit somehow.

 

I also do ELK and DSC security setups but the pricing is much more complex for those installations.