Switches unreliable via automation when calling multiple

[ThisIsTheWay]

I have a simple automation to turn on four lights. These lights are all physical Insteon dimmers interfaced via ISY.

I get mixed success (some stay on or off)
1) When I put all 4 in a group and trigger that
2) When I address all 4 directly in the automation

I have success triggering (all off or on when expected)
3) When I go to ISY, create a scene, add all 4 to scene and address that scene in my HA automation

This leads me to think HA is sending too many commands to ISY in scenario (1) and (2). Anyone have experience with this?

[MrBill]

Never tried to do what you're doing, but why not just use the scene and turn it on in the HA automation.  Scene's appear in HA as a switch.

[ThisIsTheWay]

38 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Never tried to do what you're doing, but why not just use the scene and turn it on in the HA automation.  Scene's appear in HA as a switch.

That is what I did.  But that sort of defeats the purpose of HA automations.  Would be really nice to be able to add a new light to an HA automation via my phone.  Rather than needing to go to my computer and create a new scene in ISY controller. 

This sort of indicates the HA ISY integration is an issue...

[MrBill]

I guess the test would be to insert a 1 second delay between each device in the HA automation and see what happens... and if it still fails then 2 seconds... etc.

Once it's proved tho, the best answer might just be that work-around... add a delay between devices.

[larryllix]

<off-topic post deleted>
 

Edited November 11, 2021 by larryllix

[MrBill]

56 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I find one or two devices without any Waits is not a problem. But three and almost always four devices in a rapid sequence, one is going to get missed.

If you have any comm noise Insteon will retry and by the time three hops are done and waiting for ACK signals to come back via three mesh echoes, each retry, a lot of time can pass. Rapid fire missing usually indicates bad comms in your house.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

Have you started running Home Assistant?

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

Have you started running Home Assistant?

No.  Is that related some how? I thought this was about ISY and Insteon program lines??

 

[lilyoyo1]

5 hours ago, uffy said:

That is what I did.  But that sort of defeats the purpose of HA automations.  Would be really nice to be able to add a new light to an HA automation via my phone.  Rather than needing to go to my computer and create a new scene in ISY controller. 

This sort of indicates the HA ISY integration is an issue...

I wouldn't say the integration has a issue. It's more about both systems handles things differently than each other. Then you throw Insteon itself into the equation and that plays a part as well.

Insteons strength is in scene's which the Isy excels at vs singular device control which is insteon's weakness to some degree. 

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

No.  Is that related some how? I thought this was about ISY and Insteon program lines??

Yes, it's in the Home Assistant section of the forum and discussing HA automatons, and the UDI integration.

51 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I wouldn't say the integration has a issue. It's more about both systems handles things differently than each other. Then you throw Insteon itself into the equation and that plays a part as well.

I agree with this.  The integration is really good and for the most part problem free.  But mix several technologies and there's bound to be something that has an issue somewhere. 

6 hours ago, uffy said:

Would be really nice to be able to add a new light to an HA automation via my phone.

While that's awesome, how many times do you really change automatons on the the fly?  Personally I hardly ever find the need to add a light to an automation, let alone do so on the fly.   I might want to temporarily override something, like turn a light on or off outside it's normal automation/schedule, but never do I need to re-write the plan while out and about.

[larryllix]

27 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Yes, it's in the Home Assistant section of the forum and discussing HA automatons, and the UDI integration.

ooops. my apologies and thanks!

[asbril]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

While that's awesome, how many times do you really change automatons on the the fly?  Personally I hardly ever find the need to add a light to an automation, let alone do so on the fly.   I might want to temporarily override something, like turn a light on or off outside it's normal automation/schedule, but never do I need to re-write the plan while out and about.

I agree. I use HA to access my ISY, mostly for browser control and a bit on my phone, but make no use of HA's own automation, which is much better on ISY. Unless you add/remove a device very frequently, I don't see the disadvantage of having to to use the Administrative Console. Furthermore, while I have not used option yet, I believe that the excellent UD Mobile lets you add a device as well.

If not mistaken, UD Mobile will ultimately also work in a browser and that may be game changer.

[ThisIsTheWay]

I agree with all the sentiments.  I guess I do not have a need to do scenes and automations on the fly.  This was more a desire to use HAs groups (light and switch groups).  Which are essentially unusable with ISY in the case I've mentioned.

 

This seems to be the exact issue:

20 hours ago, MrBill said:

I find one or two devices without any Waits is not a problem. But three and almost always four devices in a rapid sequence, one is going to get missed.

This started because the lack of stock in Intseon products.  I need a few more lamplincs but am forced to use some sonoffs.  

[MrBill]

Before, when I had ISY only, my basic rule was the ISY is always the controller.   That was generally an easy rule to follow.  When Alexa came along that was really the first chance to challenge the ISY as the Controller.  I however kept it firmly in my head that Alexa could only be an input/output device, and not the controller.  In other words, don't set a schedule or make routines (automation, programs) in Alexa.

When HA came along there became a challenge to that ideology.  There are some devices now that only HA knows about for example blinds.  They are automated entirely on the HA side.  There are others that I ported the device status over to the ISY, for example the MyQ HA integration ended up working out better for me than the nodeserver, Now each of my 4 doors has an integer variable that appears as a sensor in HA, the value is normally 0, but if ISY changes the value to 1, then HA will open the door and change the ISY variable back to 0, also if ISY changes the value to -1 then HA will close the door and change the ISY variable back to 0.

So when we have two power controllers at the center of the diagram we have to get creative about which is in control of what, and how to let the other control a device.

The Quote from your post above is not me, its actually not from me but from @larryllix's deleted post.  But the statement true, and he's not even using HA... His experience is just speaking of programs with multiple devices being controlled in rapid succession from a program.  So the problem that you identified may not be where HA integrates with ISY... it may just be the insteon queue overflows... in other words HA may be properly controlling the devices but the powerline signals are lost in an overcrowded queue.    To test for this, turn on the devices off in the ISY and execute your HA automation.  At then end besides check the physical lights to see which went on and off also check the device node in the ISY and see if the ISY thinks it's off or on.  If they ISY shows they all got turned on, but only some actually came on... then this issue has nothing to do with HA, its just the insteon protocol which is slow and only has minor safeguards against collisions and overflows.