Brilliant meets ISY

[randyth]

18 hours ago, carealtor said:

I submitted a request to Brilliant to "respect and use the port in the response" from the HueEmulator.  This is the response I just received.

 

Hi Tim,

My name is Isaac and I am part of the Customer Support team here at Brilliant. Thank you for reaching out to us.

I don't believe this would be on the product roadmap at this time but I'll put in an integration request for this with our product team for the future.


Regards,

Isaac
Brilliant Customer Support

That's a lame response from Brilliant. The fact the Brilliant Controller ignores the port number HueEmulator feeds it is, in my opinion, a bug. Their product roadmap should prioritize bugs.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, randyth said:

That's a lame response from Brilliant. The fact the Brilliant Controller ignores the port number HueEmulator feeds it is, in my opinion, a bug. Their product roadmap should prioritize bugs.

It's not a bug to them. It's only a bug to you since you're trying to use it outside of what they intended. 

They are only looking at what they officially support and nothing else. In that regard, the system is doing what it's supposed to do so it's not a bug. 

I'm submitting a request to though it's not something I'd ever use. It seems like they want a closed ecosystem but it doesn't hurt to ask

 

[randyth]

11 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It's not a bug to them. It's only a bug to you since you're trying to use it outside of what they intended. 

Me, biased? You're right, of course, but it could be argued that their device did not not properly implement the UPnP protocol.

Bugs are in the eye of the beholder. I remember often jokingly arguing with my QA department whether something they reported was a bug or a "feature." :-)

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, randyth said:

Me, biased? You're right, of course, but it could be argued that their device did not not properly implement the UPnP protocol.

Bugs are in the eye of the beholder. I remember often jokingly arguing with my QA department whether something they reported was a bug or a "feature." :-)

I definitely understand that. I say that to my wife and her friends when it comes to medical stuff. Depending on who you talk to you'll get a different response. 

[randyth]

47 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm submitting a request to though it's not something I'd ever use. It seems like they want a closed ecosystem but it doesn't hurt to ask

Thanks!

[carealtor]

9 hours ago, oberkc said:

I am interested in the Brilliant "switch" as a user interface only...as an alternative to keypadlincs.  It also happens to be a wonderful interface to Sonos, so bonus points there.  I have no intention of using the brilliant as another hub, or as a bridge to other devices, or as a switch controlling a load.  I also don't really care who supports whom, but was hopeful that the hue emulator (an existing node server) would work with the Brilliant much as it does with harmony remotes.

Exactly this.

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, randyth said:

<snippage>

I cannot recommend Brilliant to anyone at this point. It's too early days for me to make any endorsements. But so far it's been a (mostly) fun adventure.

I would like to hear more about the Brilliant protocol based devices. With my scan-over read I only saw devices that use other brand hubs but if they have their own protocol I would like to hear more about them. If they have another line ISY could link to, it is another option for some to expand.

If I had that hub / central smart box I would try to link into it also. Hey!, you do what you can to expand to and use what ya' got! Sometimes it spreads to the industry like an Omicron device.

[randyth]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I would like to hear more about the Brilliant protocol based devices. With my scan-over read I only saw devices that use other brand hubs but if they have their own protocol I would like to hear more about them. If they have another line ISY could link to, it is another option for some to expand.

If I had that hub / central smart box I would try to link into it also. Hey!, you do what you can to expand to and use what ya' got! Sometimes it spreads to the industry like an Omicron device.

The Brilliant-brand dimmer switches and smart plugs communicate with Brilliant's in-wall Controller using Bluetooth. You need at least one Brilliant Controller for any of the Brilliant-brand switches or plugs to work. I have no idea how their Bluetooth protocol works, but if they chose to they could absolutely allow ISY to talk directly to their controller (and vice-versa) over local Wi-Fi.

[larryllix]

2 minutes ago, randyth said:

The Brilliant-brand dimmer switches and smart plugs communicate with Brilliant's in-wall Controller using Bluetooth. You need at least one Brilliant Controller for any of the Brilliant-brand switches or plugs to work. I have no idea how their Bluetooth protocol works, but if they chose to they could absolutely allow ISY to talk directly to their controller (and vice-versa) over local Wi-Fi.

Weird! BT is only good for about 10-15 feet max, but some of these new BT offshoots are good for much longer ranges now. Is it a mesh networks or only radial connections?

[randyth]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

Weird! BT is only good for about 10-15 feet max, but some of these new BT offshoots are good for much longer ranges now. Is it a mesh networks or only radial connections?

I definitely worried about that distance limitation. I understand that Brilliant utilizes a s mesh and I've no problem so far with a switch that is much farther than 15' from the mother-ship controller. That said, it's early days and I only have three Brilliant dimmer switches in my system to date. I love these switches so much (they have no moving parts to break along with built-in motion sensors) that I have ten more coming. I'll give an update once I install them in more distant regions of my house -- all to replace dying Insteon switches.

FYI, Harmony hubs are BT as well and mine are at least 40' from their remotes and work fine. I have a headless AV system with Harmony hubs all located in a central area where a 4x4 matrix marries them with all my TV + streaming devices.

[simplextech]

4 hours ago, randyth said:

if they chose to they could absolutely allow ISY to talk directly to their controller (and vice-versa) over local Wi-Fi.

About a year ago, perhaps longer now I can't remember.  I called Brilliant and spoke with the dev department.  They were very clear (at that time) they did not want to work with any outside integrators or platforms.  They have their controller which they integrate with devices and not the other way around.  Perhaps they are changing their views.  

On a different topic another in-wall controller switch/dimmer that is new'ish (couple years old now) is the Orro switch and they do work with integrators and platforms.  I've had many discussions with them about platform integrations.

[carealtor]

12 minutes ago, simplextech said:

On a different topic another in-wall controller switch/dimmer that is new'ish (couple years old now) is the Orro switch and they do work with integrators and platforms.  I've had many discussions with them about platform integrations.

I tried out the Orro awhile back.  Still have it in my stash of "stuff".  I understand they did release an API fairly recently, but only available as alpha/beta to those who wanted to test.  I don't believe it is generally available yet.  The deal breaker for me was the convoluted method of integrating Ring doorbell.  It had to be through SmartThings.  No thanks.

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, carealtor said:

I tried out the Orro awhile back.  Still have it in my stash of "stuff".  I understand they did release an API fairly recently, but only available as alpha/beta to those who wanted to test.  I don't believe it is generally available yet.  The deal breaker for me was the convoluted method of integrating Ring doorbell.  It had to be through SmartThings.  No thanks.

They did release an API but I don't believe it's general available to public for DIY.  I don't have a unit yet but I'm thinking of getting one for development/testing.  Company wise we've been a dealer for them but never sold any due to the lack of drivers for integrating them.  Just recently the Control4 driver was released.... so....I reached out to my contact at Orro about getting the API documentation for a RTI driver and possibly ISY as well.

[randyth]

I looked into Orro but never purchased one because reviews talked about how hot they get and how the screen is really too small (and low resolution?) to be useful. The real deal killer for me was that the switches can't talk to each other -- or anything else, of course -- if your Wi-Fi/LAN drops out. My Wi-Fi is pretty reliable, but I own enough Shelly devices to know that this would drive me crazy.

[simplextech]

4 minutes ago, randyth said:

I looked into Orro but never purchased one because reviews talked about how hot they get and how the screen is really too small (and low resolution?) to be useful. The real deal killer for me was that the switches can't talk to each other -- or anything else, of course -- if your Wi-Fi/LAN drops out. My Wi-Fi is pretty reliable, but I own enough Shelly devices to know that this would drive me crazy.

Kinda the catch-22 with those devices including Brilliant.  At least Brilliant is using BT for their internal communications.  They both rely on Wifi to talk to any other device.

[randyth]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

At least Brilliant is using BT for their internal communications.  They both rely on Wifi to talk to any other device.

Yeah, I can forgive a device for needing Wi-Fi to talk to Sonos, Ring, etc. But I draw the line at not being able to turn on a 3-way light switch if Wi-Fi drops out.

[simplextech]

Just now, randyth said:

Yeah, I can forgive a device for needing Wi-Fi to talk to Sonos, Ring, etc. But I draw the line at not being able to turn on a 3-way light switch if Wi-Fi drops out.

LOL.  Yeah... 

[stillwater]

@randythand @simplextech

I am not a big fan of RF connectivity in general  but I don't understand the idea that local WiFi (as opposed to internet connectivity)  is unreliable or "drops out."    The only time my wifi goes down is when we have an extended  power failure beyond the capacity of my UPS  (when no 3-way light bulb is going to work anyway).   And of course for a minute or so when I update firmware on the router or access points -- but I can do that when no one is needing to switch a light.  

In my urban row house with many neighbors before 5 GHZ wifi was widespread we did have problems with channel congestion on 2.4 GHZ (especially if some router changed channels to an overlapping one) , but with multiple UniFi access points and most people using 5 GHZ this is a thing of the past for me.  In my rural house with no wifi congestion there have never been any drop-outs, except momentarily on mobile devices switching between access points -- which would not happen with a stationary 3-way switch. 

Even adding many low-data rate devices such as switches to my wifi shouldn't cause any problems with a modern router and access points.  Though I'd rather have as much wired as possible.

I am not meaning to be argumentative -- just wondering from your obviously different experience what causes of poor wifi reliability I should be taking into account. 

 

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, stillwater said:

just wondering from your obviously different experience what causes of poor wifi reliability I should be taking into account. 

It's a two factor.

1) Cheap low-end consumer Wifi.  People using router/Wifi (AP) combo units and having too many devices connected which will cause device drops.  Yes this is resolved by upgrading the actual Wifi infrastructure and not really a big issue

2) More importantly the enormous amount of cheap/junk/crap wifi devices that have poor wifi radios to begin with that just leads to end-user frustration and just constant problems.  This is resolved by not buying cheap junk.  If something like Brilliant were to start dropping from the network I'd me just a little upset and tech support would be hearing from me.

[randyth]

Update:

After a few months of use, I am sold on Brilliant Dimmers and have been steadily replacing my dead or dying Insteon switches with them. To "automate" Brilliant Dimmers, I use Home Assistant (HA) via its excellent HomeKit integration (I largely ignore the "controller" features of the Brilliant Control itself). HA also works well with Polisy, so it acts as the glue connecting the two technologies.

 

Pros

• Every switch has a built-in motion sensor if you want lights/scenes to turn on automatically
• No mechanical parts to wear out -- it's touch sensitive
• Dimming action, by sliding finger along groove, is smooth and responsive
• You can just whack (with back of hand, elbow, finger, forehead, whatever) the switch to turn on/off
• Remembers last dim level when turning on
• Double-whack switch to trigger a "scene"
• Supports Hue lights by leaving power on to fixture while sending on/off and dim commands
• Bluetooth-based mesh connectivity (in my household at least) appears rock solid
• Works with Alexa and Google Home
• Not unreasonably priced if purchased in lots of 3 or 10 (around $60 per switch)

Cons

• Requires the purchase of a ~$400 Brilliant Control (which also acts as a switch, BTW) before you can install any ~$60 dimmer switches. Think of the Control as an in-wall touch-screen based hub.
• No way to set a default dim level -- the last level you used becomes the new "default" when turning on a light
• You must create a free cloud account with Brilliant. However, once installed and setup, the switches do not require the Internet to operate.
• I am not a fan of the Brilliant app, although it does allow me to monitor and control my home remotely
• If Brilliant goes Instegone, the switches would likely keep working (I hope!) but you probably wouldn't be able to reconfigure them and the app will most certainly stop working
• Worst of all, Brilliant Dimmers don't work natively with ISY

[bpwwer]

From their FAQ:

At this moment, the Brilliant Control does not have a public API or SDK to integrate with. 

Until they do, it's unlikely that a node server for them will be written.

[randyth]

4 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

From their FAQ:

At this moment, the Brilliant Control does not have a public API or SDK to integrate with. 

Until they do, it's unlikely that a node server for them will be written.

Barring the unlikely release of a Brilliant API, a HomeKit node server would also allow ISY to control Brilliant switches. But, I understand that is prohibitively expensive to implement due to licensing fees.

[Michel Kohanim]

@randyth,

I am not sure how HA does HomeKit. As a commercial entity, we are not allowed to release any HomeKit enabled product without incorporating their chip (it cannot be a software only solution). This will be easier with Polisy but still a very large up front cost.

With kind regards,
Michel

[randyth]

46 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@randyth,

I am not sure how HA does HomeKit. As a commercial entity, we are not allowed to release any HomeKit enabled product without incorporating their chip (it cannot be a software only solution). This will be easier with Polisy but still a very large up front cost.

With kind regards,
Michel

Interesting. If a HomeKit chip could be utilized by Polisy via a USB device, I would happily pay for such an addon. Of course, with all UDI has going on right now, I assume investigating such a thing is way way down the priority list.

Note that I am only using HA's HomeKit Controller integration to control my Brilliant devices. There is another integration that allows you to also expose HA devices as HomeKit devices, but I have no experience with that.

[Teken]

3 hours ago, randyth said:

Update:

After a few months of use, I am sold on Brilliant Dimmers and have been steadily replacing my dead or dying Insteon switches with them. To "automate" Brilliant Dimmers, I use Home Assistant (HA) via its excellent HomeKit integration (I largely ignore the "controller" features of the Brilliant Control itself). HA also works well with Polisy, so it acts as the glue connecting the two technologies.

 

Pros

• Every switch has a built-in motion sensor if you want lights/scenes to turn on automatically
• No mechanical parts to wear out -- it's touch sensitive
• Dimming action, by sliding finger along groove, is smooth and responsive
• You can just whack (with back of hand, elbow, finger, forehead, whatever) the switch to turn on/off
• Remembers last dim level when turning on
• Double-whack switch to trigger a "scene"
• Supports Hue lights by leaving power on to fixture while sending on/off and dim commands
• Bluetooth-based mesh connectivity (in my household at least) appears rock solid
• Works with Alexa and Google Home
• Not unreasonably priced if purchased in lots of 3 or 10 (around $60 per switch)

Cons

• Requires the purchase of a ~$400 Brilliant Control (which also acts as a switch, BTW) before you can install any ~$60 dimmer switches. Think of the Control as an in-wall touch-screen based hub.
• No way to set a default dim level -- the last level you used becomes the new "default" when turning on a light
• You must create a free cloud account with Brilliant. However, once installed and setup, the switches do not require the Internet to operate.
• I am not a fan of the Brilliant app, although it does allow me to monitor and control my home remotely
• If Brilliant goes Instegone, the switches would likely keep working (I hope!) but you probably wouldn't be able to reconfigure them and the app will most certainly stop working
• Worst of all, Brilliant Dimmers don't work natively with ISY

It's been a really long time since you first started this conversation and me thinking about this new hardware. I took a quick look at some of the Amazon reviews and Q&A from potential buyers.

I just can't get past the same bull sh^t that pervades this so called Home Automation industry. 

Can you pair this to any wifi or bluetooth speakers or just sonos?

Answer:

Brilliant currently only integrates with Sonos.

 

You know Blue Tooth is an actual standard which was created to allow almost anything to be connected *Wirelessly* Yet these aszz hats won't allow BLE to connect to a simple aftermarket speaker??

 

Does this work with ip cameras?

Answer:

Currently Brilliant integrates with Ring cameras. We are always adding to our list of integrations so definitely check back at a later time.

 

Here's another real winner of a answer. We'll support a POS device like Ring. But won't follow wait for it - Standards! The RTSP / ONVIF standard was created so ANY IP based security camera could be used and viewed! Yet, stupid here will only support yet again a a sub par Cloud First device.

 

The reviews from customers also don't instill confidence in this hardware never mind the people who make this hardware. As soon as I hear and read a company is putting all their hardware on the reliance of the cloud. You know this isn't a serious company or one that will be around for very long. 

 

It just simply amazes me how utterly stupid people are getting every single year . . .

 

I just want the entire Internet to shut down for an entire year. ?