When is a switch bad? 2477S

[Ajax]

OK, I have been struggling more and more with a specific switches.

Issue #1:

I have a 4-way setup with the load going to a 2477S and 3x 2477D's for the 4-way function. The load to the 2477S are LED bulbs in my garage 9x150W=1350W. The switch should be rated at 1800W. ( I am not using the dimmers to dim, just had a bunch of them compared to on/off switches)

The issue is that sometimes I can turn the light off at any of the 4 switches and they all turn off (The LED indicator lights) except the garage lights stays on. Does not matter which switch I used I can hear the relay turn on and off at the load switch but nothing happens. Sometimes if I play with it for a while it would turn off other times I need to flip the breaker.

Is the switch itself bad? I haven plenty of 2477D's to replace it with and test but they are only rated for 600W. 

Issue #2:

Another 2477S question: I have 2 in a bathroom-1 Controls the light one controls the fan. Program turns the fan on when light is on and have a 5min timer to turn the fan off after the light is off. Sometimes I turn the light on get a red flashing LED on the light switch, the fan switch does not turn on and I can hear a slight buzzing from one of the 2 switches. I can flip the light switch off and back on and it works fine again.

These switches are fairly new purchased 3 years ago and installed 1 year ago.

 

Thanks

[mmb]

I don't think I've ever seen a 150W LED bulb.  Are you sure it's not 15W?

Do you have a make and model?

[MrBill]

12 minutes ago, mmb said:

I don't think I've ever seen a 150W LED bulb.  Are you sure it's not 15W?

Do you have a make and model?

either that or @Ajax is giving use the rating for "incandescent equivalent wattage".  If that's the case the actual wattage of the LED is likely 25-28 watt LEDs producing 2600 to 2800 lumens each.

I'm not sure why we in America have to need to keep talking about light quantity in terms of watts... as usual we can't let go of tradition, the rest of the world uses lumens tho...

[Techman]

@mmb

There are 150 watt equivalent led bulbs, I have one in my garage.

@Ajax

1. the 150 watt equivalent bulbs use about 20 watts, so that shouldn't be an issue. It's possible that one of the bulbs has a bad driver circuit that's creating noise on the powerline. I would first try doing a factory reset / restore device on the switches. If that doesn't resolve the problem then try removing one bulb at a time to see if you can isolate a problem bulb.

2. the flashing red led indicates a communication problem. Try doing a factory reset / restore device. It could also be a bad switch.

[tmorse305]

1. Replace the switch and see if the problem is resolved.  The 600W version is fine.

2. Try what @Techman suggested but if there is a communication problem, a factory reset and/or switch replacement will likely not fix it.   Since the red light is on the switch watch in the AC to see if the program fires.  If it doesn't then the switch is having trouble communicating with the PLM

[Ajax]

Thanks yes I figured the wattage could be incandescent equivalent but couldn't find anything else. Originally I had a dimmer in that switch but it got plenty hot so I figured to change it to the 2477S to be safe. Here is what I have. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L51NRLJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 the lights are great had them for over a year.  

I will replace them both a report back. Might be while sometimes its weeks before they act up

[apostolakisl]

@Ajax I hear you saying that the 2477s relay is making a click on/off sound in addition to the led on the switch going up and down, correct?  If so, then the relay inside the switch has failed.  That would be an unusual failure. especially considering the very small load, but coincidentally I have a relay that just failed me (not an insteon), it was stuck.  I tapped on it (if all else fails, beat on it), and it finally released.  But I ordered a new relay since I expect it to happen again.  Anyway, if indeed the relay inside the 2477s is just stuck to the pads and not releasing, you could try to replace just the relay, seeing as Insteon switches are hard to find nowadays.  You would have to have some soldering skills.

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Thanks yes I figured the wattage could be incandescent equivalent but couldn't find anything else. Originally I had a dimmer in that switch but it got plenty hot so I figured to change it to the 2477S to be safe. Here is what I have. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L51NRLJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 the lights are great had them for over a year.  

I will replace them both a report back. Might be while sometimes its weeks before they act up

I wouldn't recommend putting that load on a dimmer switch. It's not like you're going slightly over the rating but effectively doubling what it's rated for (even worse if next to another switch). Overloading a dimmer not only heats it up to the touch but could be a potential fire hazard

Edited March 23, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, tmorse305 said:

1. Replace the switch and see if the problem is resolved.  The 600W version is fine.

 

A 600w max dimmer is not fine to control a load that's more than double it's rating. Besides potentially damaging the device itself, he's at risk of starting a fire due to the heat. 

[mwester]

An 1800-watt load is not an 1800-watt load.

The problem is the type of the load -- inductive, resistive, or incandescant (and sometimes other finer details are applied).

To get to the point, that many LED bulbs on the same circuit is exceeding the capabilities of the little bitty relay inside the 2477S.  It's not a matter of the "average" load in watts (which is well within the limits), it's the instantaneous load when they turn on that creates an arc capable of welding the contacts closed.  This load happens over a fraction of the AC waveform, where for a very small period of time the LED bulbs all appear to be a dead short circuit (until their capacitors in their switching power supplies all charge up a bit).

Your dimmer is unlikely to fare much better, frankly.

(For the doubters, the Zooz z-wave folks actually publish specs for their switches/dimmers that show the de-ratings when used with LED loads.)

Solution: For my kitchen lighting circuit, I used an outboard relay rated for motor types of loads, and use the 2477S to turn that on/off.  I replaced the 2477S twice, until I figured out what the issue really was, and implemented the outboard relay solution.  It's worked flawlessly now, although the LED bulbs lag just a bit when doing so, and there's a distinct double-clicking as the built-in relay clicks followed almost (but not quite) instantly by the 30A relay for the lighting.  I had plenty of room under the sink to put a NEMA box to house the relay; you may need to do some creative stuff in the garage attic to house a box of sufficient size.

Edited March 23, 2022 by mwester

[tmorse305]

3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Thanks yes I figured the wattage could be incandescent equivalent but couldn't find anything else. Originally I had a dimmer in that switch but it got plenty hot so I figured to change it to the 2477S to be safe. Here is what I have. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L51NRLJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 the lights are great had them for over a year.  

Based on that you indeed have a 1350W load.  That's a lot of LEDs.  The 600W device will not handle that load as lilyoyo pointed out.  Sorry for the confusion, the thread suggested you were quoting the incandescent equivalent.

You could try the 600 W switch with just 2 of the lamps screwed in so the load is in range.  That way you could confirm you have a bad switch.

Edited March 23, 2022 by tmorse305

[Ajax]

@mwester I think you experienced what I am dealing with! You dont happen to have info on the relay you used? Getting that installed is going to be the next issue. Maybe if I split the 9 lights into 2 circuits but that will be a pain also. My whole attic has blown-in insulation 

Before I go nuts, I will dig up my kill-a-watt meter and plug one bulb in and see the actually wattage

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ajax

[mwester]

If I had to do over again, I'd go with this: https://www.functionaldevices.com/products/building-automation/details/RIB01P30

 

At the time I implemented this, I used a Functional Devices relay, but could only find a 24VAC coil version with the right contact rating, so the NEMA box includes a 24VAC transformer along with the relay.  The above link is a single box that should be able to do it with no outboard components.  You'll just need to find the right place to wire it in.

 

[bhihifi]

@Ajax, I had the same flashing LED/communication issue you have in your bathroom for the virtual switch in a 3-way configuration. It connects the other phase of electrical service versus the PLM.

I added an Insteon 2443 Access Point and coupled phases with the 2413U PLM. Communications work much better now. I don't know if you have already coupled phases in your setup, but if you haven't, it's worth a try. Other Insteon devices can also be used as phase couplers, but you would have to check their documentation to know if they can be set up that way.

[apostolakisl]

@AjaxOK, so I was under the impression that these were 150watt equivalent.  These are actually 150watts based on the fact that they say "150 watts", not 150w eq, and the fact that they also say they put out 15,000 lumens, which matches up with 150 watts of actual usage.  @mwester pointed out that you can use a relay to control a relay (2477s internal relay powers a more robust externally located relay) or you can split up the lights.  Or, you could go with a garage that isn't as bright as the surface of the sun and downgrade the wattage. 

It very much sounds like you welded the internal relay.  That internal relay almost certainly needs to be replaced.  If you are comfortable with soldering, you could replace that relay and perhaps do so with a higher rated one that won't weld itself shut.  The Insteon switches come apart but do require you drill out the heat sink rivet and then re-revet when done.  Just depends on the physical configuration of the relay and the Insteon device.  Odds are you will not be able to fit an external relay inside of your wall gang box along with your switch, so using and external relay will require adding a box.

[mmb]

I can honestly say I've never had a switch go bad.  I'm still running original Icon switches too.

PLMs however are another sad story...

[Brian H]

I have had a 2476S fail.

Was during the bad Tact Switch production run. Paddle would push the switch and it would click but the relay didn't change. Switch didn't make contact inside the switch. Some only one of the two and some both.

Got so bad they gave users with that production run a seven year guarantee.

[apostolakisl]

16 hours ago, mmb said:

I can honestly say I've never had a switch go bad.  I'm still running original Icon switches too.

PLMs however are another sad story...

To the best of my recollection, I have never had a 2477d/s go bad (except for one that I accidentally shorted the load and fried it).  I have lots and lots of them and have been generally very pleased with them.  However, I have a bunch of 2476d's that failed.  All of my first bath failed from bad tact switches, then SH replaced them with new 2476d's and I had quite a few of those fail as well from other issues.  Several had bad caps which I fixed, I had a couple that I could no longer program ramp rates, on levels, etc, and I had a couple that would no longer turn the load on/off.  In summary, 2476d bad, 2477d good.  If indeed Insteon is done, then it is quite disappointing since they seem to have finally gotten their sh.. in order.

[Ajax]

20 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Or, you could go with a garage that isn't as bright as the surface of the sun and downgrade the wattage. 

But it is sooo nice! Hopefully I will be able to verify the actual wattage tonight

[mmb]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:54 AM, Techman said:

@mmb

There are 150 watt equivalent led bulbs, I have one in my garage.

@Techman of course, but that's not what he posted. Must be equivalent.

Edited March 24, 2022 by mmb

[mmb]

3 hours ago, Ajax said:

But it is sooo nice! Hopefully I will be able to verify the actual wattage tonight

?

[Ajax]

OK the results are in they peak at about 85W and settle down to 82W. Even at 85W you are looking at 765W why would the relay weld shut... I am sure that is what happened. Prob will switch out the 2477S in the bathroom for a dimmer and use that as a replacement

[mwester]

The relay welds shut because the current is NOT a constant value with a switching power supply, which is what's inside LED light bulbs.  When the power is turned on to the bulbs after they're "cold", there is an instantaneous inrush of current because the capacitors in those power supplies have no charge whatsoever.  Thus, the LED bulbs look like a dead short circuit for a fraction of a second -- during which time you may have (depending on the wiring and length of the cable run from the breaker box) potentially 100 amps or more flowing.  That's enough to "arc-weld" the contacts together.

Note that not all switching supplied do this -- some have their circuits designed to soften this inrush current.  But many that are designed for low-cost and/or light-weight sacrifice such a circuit.  Try this with your laptop power-supply:  unplug it from the wall while it's powering your laptop, wait a few minutes, then plug it in slowly.   Watch for a flash/spark as you plug it in -- that's not the constant current, that's that "inrush" current.  If you have a very high-quality power supply, you may not see this, but most of the lower-cost (and almost all of the no-name replacement ones) do this.

[stillwater]

Correct about in-rush current.   Conceivable to have an NTC thermistor in series with load(s)  which would reduce the problem unless the the load is turned off and on again before the thermistor has a chance to cool down.   Best to use a hybrid relay with an SSR or Triac to switch the ac on and off and then a relay contact that closes after the SSR to eliminate the voltage drop (and heat) across the SSR and then the relay contact opens a few cycles before the SSR is turned off when the load is switched off.  

[Brian H]

I saw a White Paper from the ASSIST group.

Covering both Inrush and Repetitive Peek currents and how they can effect a switch or dimmer.

Most manufacturers seem to not make that information on how it may effect their products. Early days of LED bulbs had some manufacturers giving a wattage number to calculate how many bulb could safely be used. That seems to also quietly disappear. I did find one of my garage LED lights did have NTC-5D7 in its line input connection.