Insteon Hubs Bricked? Insteon going out of business? What about switch purchase, what now?

[johnmsch]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:47 PM, Teken said:

I could go on about this for days as this was one of the major failings of not expanding the Insteon brand. There's only like 8 billion people on the planet and Asia / Europe / Middle East represent more than 70% of the worlds population!

Yet, this senile imbecile never ever added the same hardware for our brothers across the globe?!?!

Literally free money left on the table by this inept aszz clown . . .

Every new piece of hardware was already dual frequency and multi-voltage. It would take almost nothing for them to change the frequency for the battery only devices and have them tested and certified for domestic use.

Yet, more than ten years goes by and the ring leader operating this circus doesn't move an inch to take market share . . .

This only gets worse in North America because you guessed it . . . Clowns are us does absolutely nothing to improve the existing hardware line. Not once do they take a great idea and make it better they simply throw sh^t at the wall and wait for it to stick.

Anything that was solid, moved, and made money they dicked around adding things that should have been present 20 years ago! To add insult to injury this incompetent fool decides to launch a new line hoping to negate the bad press the existing Insteon line had.

He spends all this money to buy the rights to use Nokia adds lipstick to a pig. Goes through the effort to file all the FCC documents and testing. Spends more money on sh^t software for yet another POS HUB, opens the doors to preorders and charges everyone's CC.

Than . . .

Wait for it . . .

Takes all the customers money, closes the doors, and runs away without a peep!

Like a bad **** in the wind it just lingers with a taste in your mouth!

     

Sing it brother!

[fisix]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:01 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm not really sure where you are getting your information from as there are many falsehoods in your statements. 

Insteon devices  are already cheap. Comparable to other zwave device makers at the same level of quality. Of course there are cheaper switches to be had. However, the ones at a lower price that are also high quality is very small. There are outliers but trying to play the race to the bottom is a fools game. 

Not sure about making things smaller being an issue. They already have the smallest devices on the market so I doubt that size matters...Otherwise people wouldn't have been using zwave. 

They did improve quality over time. Early on their stuff sucked. Quality was atrocious but there is a huge difference between the last 5-6 years and previous iterations (PLM took longer to solve). 

Voice assistants- they were an early adopter. The hub 2 has been working with Alexa and Google for years. They had a homekit compatible hub from day 1 (though it and homekit sucked) so I'm not sure how they didn't adapt to voice assistants. 

They had a 240v load controller that could operate pool pumps. However, most people with that type of disposable income were going to use other systems not insteon. There's a reason why none of the big boys such as Control4, Savant, Crestron, and Lutron do not make them and only 1 zwave mfg. does. People with disposable income will use pentair, jandy, Haywood, and some others. 

 

1) there are no falsehoods in my post.  i'm just not in the state of denial you seem to be in.

2) insteon devices were never "cheap" - how many of your friends and family have insteon devices that you haven't installed for them?  the reason why that number is low or zero is because very few if any middle income consumers wanted to make the $$ investment needed to have a reasonably complete smart-controlled home based on insteon devices.  compare x10 and Hue or alexa dot, google home, etc.  those devices (aside from Hue) are roughly half the price of an insteon wall switch, and the Hue was an actual light fixture.

3) maybe you haven't installed insteon devices in old (1980s) housing, but the outlet boxes are shallow and the apertures for the switches themselves are narrow.  an insteon switch about 0.5" shorter in depth and even just 1/4" narrower side to side would have been a huge reduction in installation woes.  size always matters.  i don't know why you care about zwave so much.

4) did insteon improve in quality since the purchase by the current owner (at least, current in January 2022)?  no.  did insteon improve in quality since 2007 or so?  maybe?  did they ever solve the PLM issues?  not that i can tell (from posts on this and other boards).  my personal PLM has improved, but i'm the one who improved it (with properly spec'd and quality caps).

5) the insteon hub and its integration with other devices has always been poor.  insteon didn't adapt (meaning make purchase and installation of their devices easier) throughout any of the home assistants - they just kept selling pretty much the same old stock they had on hand; zero development of devices the new install base was looking for, and really poor advertising.  in fact, insteon reduced their product line (because they ran out of old stock?) as time passed, and right at the time the market was looking for devices that pushed the edge of automated control.  maybe they were trying with Nokia, but that seems more like it was a paper mache mocked-up attempt to make the company look like it was worth buying.

6) i know they had a 240v load controller - i have one, and i use it to control my ancient, inefficient pool pump.  what the 240v load controller can't do is select a particular flow rate, such as what's been offered in new, much more efficient pool pumps for at least a decade now.  most of the new pumps have an interface of some kind that provides for two way communication, but insteon never worked out a way to partner with any of the pool companies to get their protocol integrated with a pump, even as an after-market module.  instead, insteon continued to sell fairly expensive fan links based on a fully electrical control module while even the cheapest fans in Lowes have zwave, zigbee, or some other wireless protocol built into them.

management failure after management failure, vision failure after vision failure, basic business skills failure after basic business skills failure.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, fisix said:

1) there are no falsehoods in my post.  i'm just not in the state of denial you seem to be in.

2) insteon devices were never "cheap" - how many of your friends and family have insteon devices that you haven't installed for them?  the reason why that number is low or zero is because very few if any middle income consumers wanted to make the $$ investment needed to have a reasonably complete smart-controlled home based on insteon devices.  compare x10 and Hue or alexa dot, google home, etc.  those devices (aside from Hue) are roughly half the price of an insteon wall switch, and the Hue was an actual light fixture.

3) maybe you haven't installed insteon devices in old (1980s) housing, but the outlet boxes are shallow and the apertures for the switches themselves are narrow.  an insteon switch about 0.5" shorter in depth and even just 1/4" narrower side to side would have been a huge reduction in installation woes.  size always matters.  i don't know why you care about zwave so much.

4) did insteon improve in quality since the purchase by the current owner (at least, current in January 2022)?  no.  did insteon improve in quality since 2007 or so?  maybe?  did they ever solve the PLM issues?  not that i can tell (from posts on this and other boards).  my personal PLM has improved, but i'm the one who improved it (with properly spec'd and quality caps).

5) the insteon hub and its integration with other devices has always been poor.  insteon didn't adapt (meaning make purchase and installation of their devices easier) throughout any of the home assistants - they just kept selling pretty much the same old stock they had on hand; zero development of devices the new install base was looking for, and really poor advertising.  in fact, insteon reduced their product line (because they ran out of old stock?) as time passed, and right at the time the market was looking for devices that pushed the edge of automated control.  maybe they were trying with Nokia, but that seems more like it was a paper mache mocked-up attempt to make the company look like it was worth buying.

6) i know they had a 240v load controller - i have one, and i use it to control my ancient, inefficient pool pump.  what the 240v load controller can't do is select a particular flow rate, such as what's been offered in new, much more efficient pool pumps for at least a decade now.  most of the new pumps have an interface of some kind that provides for two way communication, but insteon never worked out a way to partner with any of the pool companies to get their protocol integrated with a pump, even as an after-market module.  instead, insteon continued to sell fairly expensive fan links based on a fully electrical control module while even the cheapest fans in Lowes have zwave, zigbee, or some other wireless protocol built into them.

management failure after management failure, vision failure after vision failure, basic business skills failure after basic business skills failure.

Im not in any state of denial. 50 bucks isnt much for what you're getting. A standard name brand simple timer switch can easily run $25.00+, so asking for 50 dollars for a device that has 10x the capability isnt asking for too much. Are their cheaper options...of course. There are also tradeoffs with most of those options as well. Why would insteon charge the same as x10 when its much more capable. Would you Honda charge the same amount for an Accord that a Kia Rio cost just so more people buy it?

Depending on finances, yes, 50 dollars can seem expensive. But for many, that,s not even the price of a bottle of liquor, night out on the town with the Mrs., or a tank of gas. In the grand scheme of things no it is not expensive.

Of course F&F has had me install their devices. (outside my mom and MIL who I give my stuff to when I upgrade)What does that have to do with anything? They still pay for their stuff and my time (albeit with a discount) Every client I have purchases their devices (with a markup on them at that). When I installed insteon, not a single one complained about it being to costlye (specially after seeing the price of other systems).

Yes insteon has improved the quality of their devices over the years (even under new ownership). Look at the amount of failures people talk about previously vs now. Are there still failures, of course. Every device maker has them. However they are much much lower than in the past. That includes the PLM. Are people still reporting failures. Yes. But how many are of older revs vs the newest one?

What are you talking about with the home assistants? Their devices work via google and alexa no different than the isy does. When they had devices to sell, you buy them from amazon or smarthome and install in your wall. Add to your hub and connect your account to your voice assistant. How hard is that?

The nokia line was their next move. When covid hit, that did cause issues with alot of stuff and delayed things tremendously (for a lot of companies). That's not to say they didnt have poor management because its obviously they did. However, they did bring in many of the things modern systems provide in regards to adding to a system. Alas, they didnt make it to market.

What zwave or zigbee fan can you buy from lowes? They make a fan controller despite new tech thats available because there are still millions of fans out there without. Its also why you see other companies with controllers themselves such as lutron, control4, savant, and Crestron.

Why do they need to partner with a pool company to install their tech inside? It would be cheaper from a financial standpoint for both to make their api's available to an assortment of controllers like its done now and integrate that way. This is why Control4, lutron, Crestron, and Savant doesnt make their own but integrate with different systems. Ditto for UDI, Homeseer, HA, and others. In addition, you just said insteon was expensive at 50 bucks. Why would people pay the extra hundreds that an insteon pool controller would cost?

From a consumer standpoint, its great on paper to see a company try to make and do everything. From a business standpoint, it makes more sense to control as much as you can when it comes to your operation. If someone does something better than you, its better to let them build it, and integrate that way.

Edited April 25, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[TrojanHorse]

…You may recall that the UK embassy in DC was (is?) an 100% Insteon shop…

That is fascinating and news to me. Any articles on this to share? I sure hope they weren’t using the Insteon hub


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[apostolakisl]

18 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Im not in any state of denial. 50 bucks isnt much for what you're getting. A standard name brand simple timer switch can easily run $25.00+, so asking for 50 dollars for a device that has 10x the capability isnt asking for too 

 

Ahh, the good old days, when a tank of gas was $50.  Unless you are taking your date to McDonalds, not sure your going to get by with $50 there either.   

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Ahh, the good old days, when a tank of gas was $50.  Unless you are taking your date to McDonalds, not sure your going to get by with $50 there either.   

That's my whole point. Every day stuff is more than 50 bucks

[mvgossman]

There are some PLMs with the USB interface (2413U) for reasonable prices out there. The ones with the ethernet connection are outrageously expensive.

So if the new Polisy Pro works with the USB, maybe this is a good time to upgrade from the ISY994? Or is it a foolish time to upgrade because of the lack of availability of replacement Insteon switches, and especially because of the entire thing hanging on that PLM which isn't being made now? Universal Devices is very straightforward about this risk, pointing out that they are not available and accepting requests for one that they'll provide when they have a source for them.

Or does the Polisy provide an interface between Insteon and other networkable switches that will fill in the gaps smoothly? By "smoothly", I mean is there another brand of switch and alternative technology, with ready availability, that will instantly participate in a Scene with Insteon switches?

[Techman]

@mvgossman

Polisy currently supports Insteon and Zwave. Zwave devices are available from numerous manufactures. 

The possibility that Insteon and/or the PLM will be resurrected is a good possibility, but we probably won't have an ideal where it's all going until they exit bankruptcy which could be many months from now. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Techman

[apostolakisl]

42 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's my whole point. Every day stuff is more than 50 bucks

Of course the caveat to that is that you don't just buy one switch.  You might want 100 of them.

[apostolakisl]

40 minutes ago, mvgossman said:

There are some PLMs with the USB interface (2413U) for reasonable prices out there. The ones with the ethernet connection are outrageously expensive.

So if the new Polisy Pro works with the USB, maybe this is a good time to upgrade from the ISY994? Or is it a foolish time to upgrade because of the lack of availability of replacement Insteon switches, and especially because of the entire thing hanging on that PLM which isn't being made now? Universal Devices is very straightforward about this risk, pointing out that they are not available and accepting requests for one that they'll provide when they have a source for them.

Or does the Polisy provide an interface between Insteon and other networkable switches that will fill in the gaps smoothly? By "smoothly", I mean is there another brand of switch and alternative technology, with ready availability, that will instantly participate in a Scene with Insteon switches?

Polisy is a device that supports Insteon, it is not an Insteon device.  Polisy will probably support every open source protocol that exists, so I wouldn't worry about Insteon when making a Polisy decision.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Of course the caveat to that is that you don't just buy one switch.  You might want 100 of them.

True. But with 100 switches, an argument can be made that a person probably has a large home and the disposable income that comes with owning a sizeable home. 

A person with an avg size home is looking at 20-40 which still adds up but can be done 1 room at a time to lessen the the impact. 

[MrBill]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:16 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

That's my whole point. Every day stuff is more than 50 bucks

Everyday pricing is weird tho... a small complex commodity item for 64cents a piece retail vs a smaller less complex commodity item with fewer materials for $4.37 each