ISY on Polisy Feature Request: FLIRC for IR input

[JTsao]

It's in the title - the Flirc is a low cost USB device that can appear as a keyboard to the Polisy - it accepts learned IR commands and can translate them into key presses - any chance this could be used with the IoP to support IR?

(in fact IoP would only have to support initiating actions from keyboard input - the Flirc would do the IR part)

 

[apostolakisl]

Great idea.  USB keyboard input node server.  Lots of uses for that besides Flirc.  Plus flirc is cheap.

@Michel Kohanim

Edited April 20, 2022 by apostolakisl

[Michel Kohanim]

@JTsao,

Why convert IR to Keyboard? Why not just find an IR sensor and make a node server for it?

With kind regards,
Michel

[stillwater]

I would vote for having the keyboard node server even if someone has a nice special purpose IR interface that they write a node server for.   The more standard-ish  ways of getting in and out of Polisy the better.   

[apostolakisl]

6 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@JTsao,

Why convert IR to Keyboard? Why not just find an IR sensor and make a node server for it?

With kind regards,
Michel

Understand, but a keyboard input on polisy would also be a keyboard input, which I'm sure would have value aside from this particular IR sensor.  If not, what IR sensor would you have in mind?  Googling that doesn't give a lot of options.  This particular IR sensor is dirt cheap, well regarded, and readily available.  

[JTsao]

10 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Why convert IR to Keyboard? Why not just find an IR sensor and make a node server for it?

I don't know how to write a node server, and there's not any IR sensors that I am aware of, from a reputable vendor, or anyone else for that matter, that would even qualify to make a node server.  It would require an IR to IP conversion product of some kind.  The Flirc has been around for a long time and is well supported.

I was hoping UDI might be interested in adding native keyboard support to IoP for this (and possibly other) purposes.  As the Polisy is a headless device, would it be possible to use the previously unused keyboard as an input device to run programs?  From the outside, it seems like this would not be too difficult - get a character from the console and put it into a queue for the IoP to process and programs could be written like "if keyboard F1 is pressed then.... set scene 'Lights' On" - any thoughts?

[ase]

6 hours ago, JTsao said:

I don't know how to write a node server, and there's not any IR sensors that I am aware of, from a reputable vendor, or anyone else for that matter, that would even qualify to make a node server.  It would require an IR to IP conversion product of some kind.  The Flirc has been around for a long time and is well supported.

I was hoping UDI might be interested in adding native keyboard support to IoP for this (and possibly other) purposes.  As the Polisy is a headless device, would it be possible to use the previously unused keyboard as an input device to run programs?  From the outside, it seems like this would not be too difficult - get a character from the console and put it into a queue for the IoP to process and programs could be written like "if keyboard F1 is pressed then.... set scene 'Lights' On" - any thoughts?

Well I can see one major issue. Driver. Flirc doesn't seem to have a compiled Driver for bsd or a source available.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the product. I don't really see where it does anything that isn't already accomplished via the lirc library and any standard ir receiver.

https://www.lirc.org/

I am not sure what in polisy's build of BSD has been modified. However in standard BSD images even when headless it is standard for the system to drop into shell. If an keyboard is detected it would be issuing commands via cli. This means some form of cli to isy program would need to be written. This would be similar to how apache2 needs php-cli to run many server side processes.

Directly mapping keystrokes to cli "aliases" would likely cause issues when actually trying to work with cli for other reasons.

If you want "remote" access via a remote a solution like harmony hub or iTach seems like a better way. 

For local access remote control the lirc library and an ir receiver would make much more sense.

[apostolakisl]

5 hours ago, ase said:

Well I can see one major issue. Driver. Flirc doesn't seem to have a compiled Driver for bsd or a source available.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the product. I don't really see where it does anything that isn't already accomplished via the lirc library and any standard ir receiver.

https://www.lirc.org/

I am not sure what in polisy's build of BSD has been modified. However in standard BSD images even when headless it is standard for the system to drop into shell. If an keyboard is detected it would be issuing commands via cli. This means some form of cli to isy program would need to be written. This would be similar to how apache2 needs php-cli to run many server side processes.

Directly mapping keystrokes to cli "aliases" would likely cause issues when actually trying to work with cli for other reasons.

If you want "remote" access via a remote a solution like harmony hub or iTach seems like a better way. 

For local access remote control the lirc library and an ir receiver would make much more sense.

Harmony hub and itach are IR output, not input.  I know nothing about a usb keyboard plugged into polisy and how polyglot would be able to receive input from it.  Looking to control ISY using IR, not have ISY send IR.  I already have a harmony hub and an itach and am already using it via the harmony and itach node servers.

[ase]

6 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Harmony hub and itach are IR output, not input.  I know nothing about a usb keyboard plugged into polisy and how polyglot would be able to receive input from it.  Looking to control ISY using IR, not have ISY send IR.  I already have a harmony hub and an itach and am already using it via the harmony and itach node servers.

Harmony hub can send commands back to polisy via the hue node. And iTach can send, receive and relay commands.

[JTsao]

I use the Hue emulator V2 with Harmony hub remotes - you are limited to the dedicated home control buttons and can really only turn scenes on/off or adjust.  With the Virtual node server, or by using a device, this can be used to trigger a program.  I also use the Harmony Hub V2 Node server, but it is also limited - the main benefit I see is to run a program when an activity is started.  As far as I can tell, the iTach only goes from IP to IR, not the other way around, which is what would be required for the discussion at hand here.

I see that LIRC is a Linux software package that can send IR and possibly receive - it looks like there are instructions for building your own IR to UART receiver - this would require tying up the Polisy Serial Port and require building your own hardware - this requires further study but I'm not seeing an upside yet.  BTW there is one other device that can be purchased, that I am aware of, to receive (and send) IR signals and send them to a computer via USB and it is called the USB-UIRT - I used to use this with DVR software known as SageTV to control set top boxes for video capture.

The thing I am trying to accomplish by suggesting use of the Flirc is to replace the IR capability that was in the ISY994, which I found to be very useful - because I could use any programmable IR Remote, any button, and have the ISY994 run a program.  I can't seem to easily do that anymore and I don't like the idea of buying a super expensive remote to control the ISY via IP.

The Flirc is a nice, low cost, very small dongle, kind of like one of those very small USB drives that barely sticks out of the USB port - in my mind it would be a very convenient way to get IR into the Polisy/IoP but I don't know what is required to connect the key codes to running ISY programs.

Edited April 23, 2022 by JTsao
add info

[gzahar]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:06 PM, ase said:

Harmony hub can send commands back to polisy via the hue node. And iTach can send, receive and relay commands.

Harmony is obsolete.  Even if you were willing to pay for the products you can currently find, we need a non Harmony solution for the future.  Not to mention it does not receive IR or work with non harmony remotes.  iTach in it's off the shelf form does not provide received IR signals.  It will display a received IR signal using their iLearn program but I do not see an API listed for this functionality so that it can be used in the mode you suggest.  Possibly someone could reverse engineer this and create a Node server.

I think the Flirc idea sounds great (since they are inexpensive and I have several...); but as mentioned a driver would be needed for native Polisy support and/or a Node server (if USB s/w access is allowed).

[ase]

1 hour ago, gzahar said:

Harmony is obsolete.  Even if you were willing to pay for the products you can currently find, we need a non Harmony solution for the future.  Not to mention it does not receive IR or work with non harmony remotes.  iTach in it's off the shelf form does not provide received IR signals.  It will display a received IR signal using their iLearn program but I do not see an API listed for this functionality so that it can be used in the mode you suggest.  Possibly someone could reverse engineer this and create a Node server.

I think the Flirc idea sounds great (since they are inexpensive and I have several...); but as mentioned a driver would be needed for native Polisy support and/or a Node server (if USB s/w access is allowed).

Harmony is not obsolete, it just isn't manufactured anymore. There is a plentiful supply on the market. Logitech has pledge to continue to support the product. Logitech has an excellent reputation for support. They are still supporting devices as far back as 1997. Furthermore Harmony hub absolutely does support IR remotes via the IR receiver that can be via the ports on the back. The IR receiver for that is about 8 dollars.

As far as iTach. 

Connector: 3.5mm stereo jack
3 Independent selectable IR outputs or sensor inputs
3 IR emitters included
1 IR blaster included (supported on 3rd IR port)

The site itself shows it is configurable for both send and receive out of the box. 

Both the white papers and release notes show ir receive is factory supported.

There is already a node for iTach in the node store and iTach can be used by network resources.

Now as far as Flirc. It doesn't do anything that the lirc library doesn't do for the cost of any generic ir receiver l. Lirc library is nativity supported by BSD and wouldn't require any drivers.

However IR is long in the tooth. With EoHDMI most home theater devices are ARC or CEC compatible. Most high-end split ac systems have moved away from IR to Bluetooth driven. So IRs future is really relegated to low cost fans and portable ac. 

In terms of trigger of scenes a simple z-wave remote can do that very reliably now. 

Logitech basically broke down the same reasons in their development fourm as to why they discontinued harmony.

I would expect that iTach would be in a better position than Logitech as they are not mass produced at the same level that harmony had been. But I would expect that they may even reduce support levels to IR. 

There are just too many options already for IR control, I just can't see UDI benefiting from spending time on Flirc. Especially when it doesn't really do anything that lirc library doesn't already do with any IR receiver. I have used lirc in hundreds of setups, it works great with literally any ir remote. You can program any key to do anything, any command, any macro. It is at the heart of many consumer devices. I am willing to bet that both Harmony and iTach use it.

[apostolakisl]

@ase  Have you ever provisioned an itach to receive ir aside from it's own learning app?  I haven't seen anyone do that.  And the node server doesn't support ir input, it only supports output.

The point of the flirc support is 1) simple, 2) cheap, 3) supports any keyboard input.  In fact, it is not flirc per se that we are requesting support, it is just keyboard input which can be generically applied to anything that does keyboard output, including an actual keyboard.

Edited April 25, 2022 by apostolakisl

[hart2hart]

I have sophisticated URC remotes that I’ve used some model for the last 17ish years. In my case, they send RF to a base station which is converted to IR or IP. One remote to control from rooms where the shared actual device is located in media room rack.

I used IR on ISY to control lights as the remote was already near or close at hand. Ive slowly been migrating to voice control but still prefer a simple button press if the remote is in hand.

As much as some want it to go away, it is still very useful n my use case.

[ase]

16 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

@ase  Have you ever provisioned an itach to receive ir aside from it's own learning app?  I haven't seen anyone do that.  And the node server doesn't support ir input, it only supports output.

The point of the flirc support is 1) simple, 2) cheap, 3) supports any keyboard input.  In fact, it is not flirc per se that we are requesting support, it is just keyboard input which can be generically applied to anything that does keyboard output, including an actual keyboard.

Yes I have. The node server can be modified the code is all there.

Flirc if you haven't figured it out is just a modified version of lirc library.  Lirc is free, ir receiver witj remotes are 3-4 times cheaper than Flirc.

ISY and polisy are not able to take command from cli.

Several of you seem to be missing that. The keyboard thing is a no go without someway to translate cli commands into isy or polisy to execute.

This would require UDI to create such a program and would absolutely compromise security.

Polisy runs on BSD Flirc doesn't have a driver for BSD. That means UDI or who ever would need to dump the EEPROM from the device and write a driver.

 

The end result of which would be the exact same as LIRC.

So Why bother? You can install lirc right now and do EVERYTHING that Flirc does.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/lirc/files/LIRC/0.10.0/

A ir receiver and remote cost about 10 dollars.

It's also worth noting that BSD supports Bluetooth remotes. You can plug a Bluetooth interface in polisy or via usb and it will recognize it. 

Again all of that is moot without some way of translating bash commands into isy or polisy.

[ase]

46 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

I have sophisticated URC remotes that I’ve used some model for the last 17ish years. In my case, they send RF to a base station which is converted to IR or IP. One remote to control from rooms where the shared actual device is located in media room rack.

I used IR on ISY to control lights as the remote was already near or close at hand. Ive slowly been migrating to voice control but still prefer a simple button press if the remote is in hand.

As much as some want it to go away, it is still very useful n my use case.

Don't get me wrong I love my buttons. However, IR is essentially dead. Love it, hate it. Bluetooth has taken over the space as it allows for bidirectional communication and data transmission.

The aeotec nanomote is what I will be adding for remote control. They are small and simple. Just stick them at each seating location in the house.

I still use harmony hubs, but as I upgrade more and more I am seeing less and less need for them. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by ase

[gzahar]

Yes I have. The node server can be modified the code is all there.
Flirc if you haven't figured it out is just a modified version of lirc library.  Lirc is free, ir receiver witj remotes are 3-4 times cheaper than Flirc.
ISY and polisy are not able to take command from cli.
Several of you seem to be missing that. The keyboard thing is a no go without someway to translate cli commands into isy or polisy to execute.
This would require UDI to create such a program and would absolutely compromise security.
Polisy runs on BSD Flirc doesn't have a driver for BSD. That means UDI or who ever would need to dump the EEPROM from the device and write a driver.
 
The end result of which would be the exact same as LIRC.
So Why bother? You can install lirc right now and do EVERYTHING that Flirc does.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/lirc/files/LIRC/0.10.0/
A ir receiver and remote cost about 10 dollars.
It's also worth noting that BSD supports Bluetooth remotes. You can plug a Bluetooth interface in polisy or via usb and it will recognize it. 
Again all of that is moot without some way of translating bash commands into isy or polisy.

If you have modified the iTach node server to receive IR, please release or provide instructions to modify for the rest of us. I’m not on PG3 yet, but it could help others now.

I would be happy with Lirc or Flirc. I understand that others might like the idea of keyboard input, but that is secondary in my mind to a simple IR input for Polisy. If security or development favors one over the other, so be it.

Long live IR!

[ase]

1 minute ago, gzahar said:

If you have modified the iTach node server to receive IR, please release or provide instructions to modify for the rest of us. I’m not on PG3 yet, but it could help others now.

I would be happy with Lirc or Flirc. I understand that others might like the idea of keyboard input, but that is secondary in my mind to a simple IR input for Polisy. If security or development favors one over the other, so be it.

I have not modified the node server. I haven't used iTach in many years. I simply have no use for it. However, the current iTach node source code is all right there and iTach's api is incredibly simple. Maybe one of the simplest ever in existence. You could literally write it into a very simple html document for control. 

[ase]

Ok I think there is some misunderstanding here.

Right now AFAIK isy and polyglot are not commandable from a bash shell. 

So something like isy-cli would need to be created.

Then a command like: "isy-cli set on <device id> would need to be issued.

Now obviously this isn't going to work with a single button. 

We would have to map an alias so a single letter would be acceptable.

Now we need to allow that single button to enter. So we need to create bindings and macros for each button.

Now none of this would be GUI. Because this is all OS level, and not application level.

So each config file would be manually created with nano, vi, or vim.

If you think getting iTach or harmony is difficult to get to handle commands you are not ready to handle hand editing this kind of system.

You would have at least four config files to manually create and configure.

To top all of this now all devices would be addressable from the OS. Imagine a hacker getting into polisy via ssh and now having full control of your house....

There are reasons why developers try to keep OS level access away from web exposed applications. Think about why we have VirtualBox, VMWARE, and Docker.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ase