So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.  Does anyone have experience with it vs Zwave in terms of not needing any additional amplifiers?  or any other pros or cons vs Zwave is appreciated.

 

Additionally I may be confused is Caséta  the only Lutron type or are there others i.e. is Caséta the only Lutron smart switches?

Edited April 23, 20223 yr by jkraus

I have only very little experience at this point.  I have a Caseta smart bridge two Pico's and two automated blinds.

Right now the bridge and the blinds are at opposite sides of our 2000 sqft. single story home and it just barely works.  The bridge is able to control the blinds 99% of the time.  If I move the bridge, it gets worse.   If I were to place the bridge in a more central location in the house, I don't believe I would have any issues at all.

It's currently located where it's at so that I can use it to develop the PG3 Caseta node server.

When I first installed a z-wave lock, I had no luck communicating with over that distance, but that was with z-wave 300 series devices so it may not be a fair comparison today.

17 minutes ago, jkraus said:

So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.  Does anyone have experience with it vs Zwave in terms of not needing any additional amplifiers?  or any other pros or cons vs Zwave is appreciated.

 

Additionally I may be confused is Caséta  the only Lutron type or are there others i.e. is Caséta the only Lutron smart switches?

I googled caseta wireless range and Lutron says it's range is 30 feet from controller to device. Their forums can provide more help in regards to caseta since they make it. 

https://forums.lutron.com/forumdisplay.php/82-Caseta-Wireless

Edited April 23, 20223 yr by lilyoyo1

44 minutes ago, jkraus said:

So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.  Does anyone have experience with it vs Zwave in terms of not needing any additional amplifiers?  or any other pros or cons vs Zwave is appreciated.

 

Additionally I may be confused is Caséta  the only Lutron type or are there others i.e. is Caséta the only Lutron smart switches?

https://www.lutron.com/en-US/Residential-Commercial-Solutions/Pages/Residential-Solutions/WholeHomeSolutions.aspx

also - not listed on that page - is

https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en

as i understand it, radiora3 and homeworks are sealer only - you can either take their courses to get certified or find a dealer that will sell to you (though probably not kosher with lutron)

its a maze to understand the components that are compatible - lutron's radio (clear connect) as i understand it can be 2 types - a or x - different radio frequencies - but if you go with x, its like 2.4 ghz - from lutron

"Type X and Type A are terms that are coupled with Lutron's Clear Connect Wireless protocol. Type A refers to devices that communicate using 431 to 437 MHz whereas Type X uses 2.4 to 2.48 GHz. RadioRA 3 utilizes both of these protocols in order to provide flexibility. The most important aspect is less the Type and frequency and more just remembering the key device rules. seeTouch, Maestro, Pico Wireless, Radio Powr Savr sensors, and wireless window treatments should all be placed within 30ft of the processor or a Repeater and Repeaters should be placed no further than 60ft apart from each other. Sunnata keypads, dimmers and switches utilize more of a mesh topology and should be placed using the following key rules: 1. all Sunnata devices within 75ft of the processor 2. at least 2 Sunnata devices within 25ft of the processor 3. at least 2 Sunnata devices within 25ft of other Sunnata devices"

not sure if there is a polisy node yet for anything lutron but the specs are public

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/040249.pdf

until competing standards shake themselves out, its pick a hole and jump on it - lutron has some integration with other devices but my elk security system is not one of them - some stuff (like roomba) i don't need - but the beauty of polisy is the integration of most anything that someone can develop a node for (assuming its legit) and make those resources interact with other unrelated resources - with most 'solutions', you can only relate disparate resoutces the manufacturer had integrated with

lutron is expensive but it works - from a dealer post -

"The common complaint I see here is that iTs NoT aN oPeN sYsTeM - which to me just means that you have some limitations to work with. You have to use Lutron products and can’t sub in random switches or other controls. I like that the system as a whole is easy to setup, maintain, and forget about. It’s all self contained and when I sell my house, I don’t have to rip everything out because it’s held together with shoestrings and raspberry pi.

"That all said - it’s expensive. I get a discount cause I’m a dealer and it’s still really expensive. But like another poster said, it’s a Cadillac where other systems are a little more back catalog go-cart"

 

um - dealer only - sealer - jeez

 

2 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

https://www.lutron.com/en-US/Residential-Commercial-Solutions/Pages/Residential-Solutions/WholeHomeSolutions.aspx

also - not listed on that page - is

https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en

as i understand it, radiora3 and homeworks are sealer only - you can either take their courses to get certified or find a dealer that will sell to you (though probably not kosher with lutron)

its a maze to understand the components that are compatible - lutron's radio (clear connect) as i understand it can be 2 types - a or x - different radio frequencies - but if you go with x, its like 2.4 ghz - from lutron

"Type X and Type A are terms that are coupled with Lutron's Clear Connect Wireless protocol. Type A refers to devices that communicate using 431 to 437 MHz whereas Type X uses 2.4 to 2.48 GHz. RadioRA 3 utilizes both of these protocols in order to provide flexibility. The most important aspect is less the Type and frequency and more just remembering the key device rules. seeTouch, Maestro, Pico Wireless, Radio Powr Savr sensors, and wireless window treatments should all be placed within 30ft of the processor or a Repeater and Repeaters should be placed no further than 60ft apart from each other. Sunnata keypads, dimmers and switches utilize more of a mesh topology and should be placed using the following key rules: 1. all Sunnata devices within 75ft of the processor 2. at least 2 Sunnata devices within 25ft of the processor 3. at least 2 Sunnata devices within 25ft of other Sunnata devices"

not sure if there is a polisy node yet for anything lutron but the specs are public

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/040249.pdf

until competing standards shake themselves out, its pick a hole and jump on it - lutron has some integration with other devices but my elk security system is not one of them - some stuff (like roomba) i don't need - but the beauty of polisy is the integration of most anything that someone can develop a node for (assuming its legit) and make those resources interact with other unrelated resources - with most 'solutions', you can only relate disparate resoutces the manufacturer had integrated with

lutron is expensive but it works - from a dealer post -

"The common complaint I see here is that iTs NoT aN oPeN sYsTeM - which to me just means that you have some limitations to work with. You have to use Lutron products and can’t sub in random switches or other controls. I like that the system as a whole is easy to setup, maintain, and forget about. It’s all self contained and when I sell my house, I don’t have to rip everything out because it’s held together with shoestrings and raspberry pi.

"That all said - it’s expensive. I get a discount cause I’m a dealer and it’s still really expensive. But like another poster said, it’s a Cadillac where other systems are a little more back catalog go-cart"

 

Ra3 does not work with the Isy. Currently only select systems. While UDI is trying to gain access, there is no guarantee. 

Lutron doesn't care what dealers do with their products since most must go through a distributer and not directly through them. They won't help end users anyway. 

Most dealers don't sell direct since they don't want the headache. Why would I pass my discount along to you (not you personally), and deal with potential warranty issues and calls for help for a product i didn't install and didn't make my full amount on? 

There are many online stores that sell Ra3. You'll just pay full price. It's really not hard to get which is why Lutron has the free class. A person just had to be willing to take the time to read and learn

1 hour ago, jkraus said:

So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.  Does anyone have experience with it vs Zwave in terms of not needing any additional amplifiers?  or any other pros or cons vs Zwave is appreciated.

 

Additionally I may be confused is Caséta  the only Lutron type or are there others i.e. is Caséta the only Lutron smart switches?

I'm curious where you are going with the "no additional amplifiers" thing? All radio technologies, including Wi-Fi, have the potential to require some sort of repeater to ensure a good signal path to all parts of a house, especially if there is a lot of stone and brick and metal to deal with. Some technologies use the end devices themselves to provide the repeating which I don't care for because if you need to service. or just want to change an end device in your system and it was the critical path (no alternate route available) for other parts of your network to get a signal then that simple device change can quickly become a huge headache. I prefer dedicated communication radios that provide a backbone for the system that no single endpoint device can disrupt. Lutron Caseta, Lutron Radio RA2, and Yolink LoRa devices work this way. You can also get Z-Wave to work this way if you use multiple Hubitat hubs or Homeseer Z-Net radios as your interface so all devices talk directly to the interface. For me, Wi-Fi and Zigbee and Lutron Radio RA3 are non starters because they use 2.4GHz which I think is a much bigger problem than needing repeaters will ever be.

Autelis - bummer that it went away

The Lutron integration protocol will allow third-party equipment, such as touch-screens, universal remote controls, and software applications, to control and monitor devices in a Lutron lighting control system. The protocol supports three basic types of integration operations: • Execute an action in the Lutron system • Query the status of the Lutron system and Lutron devices • Monitor responses from the Lutron system

Integration Access Points communicate with external systems using RS232, Ethernet or both. The Lutron integration protocol will allow third-party equipment, such as touch-screens, keypads, and software applications, to control and monitor devices in the Lutron lighting control system through an Integration Access Point. For more information, check the page specific to the Integration Access Point being used. An example of an Integration Access Point is the QS Network Interface (QSE-CI-NWK-E). For a listing of all the available Integration Access Points supported by a particular system, see the Integration Access Points section for that system in the table of contents.

start coding

 

3 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

Autelis - bummer that it went away

The Lutron integration protocol will allow third-party equipment, such as touch-screens, universal remote controls, and software applications, to control and monitor devices in a Lutron lighting control system. The protocol supports three basic types of integration operations: • Execute an action in the Lutron system • Query the status of the Lutron system and Lutron devices • Monitor responses from the Lutron system

Integration Access Points communicate with external systems using RS232, Ethernet or both. The Lutron integration protocol will allow third-party equipment, such as touch-screens, keypads, and software applications, to control and monitor devices in the Lutron lighting control system through an Integration Access Point. For more information, check the page specific to the Integration Access Point being used. An example of an Integration Access Point is the QS Network Interface (QSE-CI-NWK-E). For a listing of all the available Integration Access Points supported by a particular system, see the Integration Access Points section for that system in the table of contents.

start coding

 

There's more to Lutron than just copying and pasting information. There needs to be an understanding of how things work in addition to access to their API (at least in regards to RA3. With the type of questions the op is asking, the information you're pasting will only cause further confusion which doesn't help him at all. 

2 hours ago, jkraus said:

So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.  Does anyone have experience with it vs Zwave in terms of not needing any additional amplifiers?  or any other pros or cons vs Zwave is appreciated.

 

Additionally I may be confused is Caséta  the only Lutron type or are there others i.e. is Caséta the only Lutron smart switches?

Lutron is different, and has a few product lines, from their training:

• Caseta: up to 75 devices and 1 repeater, 400 MHz
• RA2Select: Up to 100 devices and a pair of repeaters, 400 MHz
• RadioRA2: Up to 100 devices and a pair of repeaters (dealer only), 400 MHz
• RadioRA3: Newest, up to 100 devices on 2.4 GHz + 100 RadioRA2 400 MHz devices and every device with a neutral wire is a repeater
• QS: up to 10,000+ devices (I'm not familiar with it)

If you want more info, please take their trainings - most of them are free for at least the basic product info, and go into a good amount of detail without being over-involved.

 

For a quick list of pros/cons:

• Lutron does lighting and HVAC only, Z-Wave as a myriad of oddball devices like door locks and mouse traps.
• Lutron is a single vendor, if you don't like their aesthetics or assortment than you're SOL.
• Lutron's lighting system is just plain better.  It's the only competitor to Insteon that avoids popcorning, and it's extremely reliable when installed correctly.
• Z-Wave is significantly less expensive.
• Z-Wave has longer reach if you have a strong mesh than all but RadioRA3 or QS systems.

For my money, when I switch off of Insteon in the future, my lighting will go Lutron and my other devices Z-Wave.

3 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I'm curious where you are going with the "no additional amplifiers" thing? All radio technologies, including Wi-Fi, have the potential to require some sort of repeater to ensure a good signal path to all parts of a house, especially if there is a lot of stone and brick and metal to deal with. Some technologies use the end devices themselves to provide the repeating which I don't care for because if you need to service. or just want to change an end device in your system and it was the critical path (no alternate route available) for other parts of your network to get a signal then that simple device change can quickly become a huge headache. I prefer dedicated communication radios that provide a backbone for the system that no single endpoint device can disrupt. Lutron Caseta, Lutron Radio RA2, and Yolink LoRa devices work this way. You can also get Z-Wave to work this way if you use multiple Hubitat hubs or Homeseer Z-Net radios as your interface so all devices talk directly to the interface. For me, Wi-Fi and Zigbee and Lutron Radio RA3 are non starters because they use 2.4GHz which I think is a much bigger problem than needing repeaters will ever be.

2.4 is the rf frequency - nothing says it has to be wifi protocol

while lutron can use that frequency, that does not mean its wifi protocol - i suspect its not - its their 'clear channel'

generally, wifi repeaters are not the correct answer - unless its to extend the signal

wifi access points are the answer to most problems 

a repeater STILL sends traffic through the access point it is connected to 

home access points are not some huge technical feat only a nerd can set up - most homes need good wifi coverage for devices other than homeautomation - just be aware that if you want to 'roam' between access points in your home, you will need a controller of some type to accommodate the handoffs between access points

probably need good home wifi already - its a no brainer to use it for home automation (though dealers can't make more money saying 'robust' and 'add more')

i agree that reducing single points of failure is always a good thing - as i understand insteon, the traffic does not have a path the packet must traverse - if one device dies, most likely another device will pass along the packet - with zwave (way outta my league here), the route is set at setup or until some kinda 'heal' process is initiated - the new 700 standard might have addressed that 

36 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

 For me, Wi-Fi and Zigbee and Lutron Radio RA3 are non starters because they use 2.4GHz which I think is a much bigger problem than needing repeaters will ever be.

@upstatemike just curious why 2.4 GHz is bad. I'm considering ZigBee as an Insteon replacement, that or z-wave.

1 minute ago, vbphil said:

@upstatemike just curious why 2.4 GHz is bad. I'm considering ZigBee as an Insteon replacement, that or z-wave.

Same frequency as wifi devices which can cause interference. 

Imagine a 3 lane highway. 2.4 would be the first lane. As long as all traffic is moving great, it's a great protocol. However, of something goes wrong, you can have system issues. 

For the most part, you should be ok due to the number of channels out there. With Control4, they recommend seeing the system to channel 25 to avoid normal wifi channel use. 

27 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

2.4 is the rf frequency - nothing says it has to be wifi protocol

while lutron can use that frequency, that does not mean its wifi protocol - i suspect its not - its their 'clear channel'

generally, wifi repeaters are not the correct answer - unless its to extend the signal

wifi access points are the answer to most problems 

a repeater STILL sends traffic through the access point it is connected to 

home access points are not some huge technical feat only a nerd can set up - most homes need good wifi coverage for devices other than homeautomation - just be aware that if you want to 'roam' between access points in your home, you will need a controller of some type to accommodate the handoffs between access points

probably need good home wifi already - its a no brainer to use it for home automation (though dealers can't make more money saying 'robust' and 'add more')

i agree that reducing single points of failure is always a good thing - as i understand insteon, the traffic does not have a path the packet must traverse - if one device dies, most likely another device will pass along the packet - with zwave (way outta my league here), the route is set at setup or until some kinda 'heal' process is initiated - the new 700 standard might have addressed that 

Its about the frequency it's on. Wifi is RF. The term is ubiquitous to wireless internet but that doesn't change the fact that it's still radio frequency and can interfere with other things that uses that frequency. Most likely Lutron is using a different channel (i know Control4 recommend going outside most wifi router channel range) along with some fancy modulation.

At the end of the day interference can still happen which is his point due to market saturation of the bandwidth. It's easy to copy and regurgitate information but it's the details behind it that you have to understand

Edited April 23, 20223 yr by lilyoyo1

2 hours ago, jkraus said:

So I hear that Lutron is better then Zwave, so I assume it is a different protocol than Zwave.

I don't know who keeps saying this but I'll say this - they simply don't know what they're talking about.  10 years ago yes, zwave was a mess.  

Now with mature 700 series devices and an open protocol, zwave is exceptional.  If someone is ranting the greatness of Lutron vs. zwave they're a dealer or have never tried new zwave.  

If someone wants to chirp about how great RA2 is or how super great RA3 is, don't until you run a 700 series zwave network for a while.  

9 minutes ago, vbphil said:

@upstatemike just curious why 2.4 GHz is bad. I'm considering ZigBee as an Insteon replacement, that or z-wave.

its not bad

2.4 reaches farther than higher frequencies - higher frequencies are faster transferring data

generally, lower frequencies penetrate better

5 minutes ago, io_guy said:

I don't know who keeps saying this but I'll say this - they simply don't know what they're talking about.  10 years ago yes, zwave was a mess.  

Now with mature 700 series devices and an open protocol, zwave is exceptional.  If someone is ranting the greatness of Lutron vs. zwave they're a dealer or have never tried new zwave.  

If someone wants to chirp about how great RA2 is or how super great RA3 is, don't until you run a 700 series zwave network for a while.  

I've tried all 3 and there's a huge difference between Lutron and zwave. Yes 700 series have made things much better but there's still a huge difference in practical use when it comes to 700 series devices and Lutron. 

It's not just the protocol communication. It's the look, feel, and operation of the devices that plays a large part in how great something is. 

It's like driving a standard luxury vehicle like my gv80 and then stepping inside of a true luxury vehicle like a high end Mercedes. The build quality and experience is just on a different level. 

7 minutes ago, io_guy said:

I don't know who keeps saying this but I'll say this - they simply don't know what they're talking about.  10 years ago yes, zwave was a mess.  

Now with mature 700 series devices and an open protocol, zwave is exceptional.  If someone is ranting the greatness of Lutron vs. zwave they're a dealer or have never tried new zwave.  

If someone wants to chirp about how great RA2 is or how super great RA3 is, don't until you run a 700 series zwave network for a while.  

zwave do this instantly and simultaneously?

 

22 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Same frequency as wifi devices which can cause interference. 

Imagine a 3 lane highway. 2.4 would be the first lane. As long as all traffic is moving great, it's a great protocol. However, of something goes wrong, you can have system issues. 

For the most part, you should be ok due to the number of channels out there. With Control4, they recommend seeing the system to channel 25 to avoid normal wifi channel use. 

2.4 is NOT a protocol

 

13 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I've tried all 3 and there's a huge difference between Lutron and zwave. Yes 700 series have made things much better but there's still a huge difference in practical use when it comes to 700 series devices and Lutron.

Forgive me for intruding but there is a HUGE price discrepancy between 700ZW products and Lutron (RA, Caseta, Homeworks etc.) not to mention the capabilities of 700ZW go way beyond those of Lutron. Both have their place.

56 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I've tried all 3 and there's a huge difference between Lutron and zwave. Yes 700 series have made things much better but there's still a huge difference in practical use when it comes to 700 series devices and Lutron. 

It's not just the protocol communication. It's the look, feel, and operation of the devices that plays a large part in how great something is. 

It's like driving a standard luxury vehicle like my gv80 and then stepping inside of a true luxury vehicle like a high end Mercedes. The build quality and experience is just on a different level. 

Still waiting for an actual example.  "look and feel" is extremely subjective and zwave has many different vendors/designs.  Some people like the sh1tty look and feel of Insteon.  

What's the operation that RA2 can do that zwave can't?

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There's more to Lutron than just copying and pasting information. There needs to be an understanding of how things work in addition to access to their API (at least in regards to RA3. With the type of questions the op is asking, the information you're pasting will only cause further confusion which doesn't help him at all. 

you might snipe at others from behind your keyboard on this forum and get by without a response - i will respond so you can vomit up how many people you have helped yet again

i know i am not the big fish in this pond and i understand that this pond is important to you

i also understand that most here do not want to discuss concepts - especially you because you do not understand them - you can't ignore a thread i created to discuss wifi and its use for home automation - you could not ignore that thread - but felt compelled to bring in your snark

you are not as smart as you think you are - as revealed by what you post - and your language is off-putting if not offensive 

this will run you off - what is the constraint in using wifi for home automation - post the resource utilization for us

16 minutes ago, io_guy said:

Still waiting for an actual example.  "look and feel" is extremely subjective and zwave has many different vendors/designs.  Some people like the sh1tty look and feel of Insteon.  

What's the operation that RA2 can do that zwave can't?

what i posted above

do that and many other scenes with zwave - insteon did - lutron does

i don't dislike zwave - or married to lutron - scenes are important to me - as far as i know, zwave can't do what i want

 

and would never use ra2 - or ra3 until it can support more than 200 devices