Trouble Figuring Out KPL Button/Scenes

[KHouse]

I've got a 6 button KPL that I've setup recently (first KPL for me).

All works well with the buttons linked (via manual link, except the OFF button is an ALL OFF for the basement lights so that is a program).

One of the buttons (D) is my NIGHT button.  That button is setup to turn on the two lights I would like to be on all night (Kitchen Hall Light and Foyer Hall Light) with a scene ("NIGHT LIGHTS").  Essentially turn on 2 lights and turn off all other lights.  First time for me using a scene.

How do I have that scene turn off all the other lights though?  Do I set a program that if NIGHT is pressed on, then to turn off all the lights (list them individually).  Or do I turn them off in the scene?  Essentially the scene turns on the desired lights right now and ties them to the desired button on the KPL.  But how do I have that button turn lights off in that same scene?  Or, do you turn lights off only via a program.

After this I'm tackling having the LED control (so KPL and location switches match).  I've read up on that, definitely have some questions, but wanted to make sure I had the ON/OFF setup correctly before attempting that.  Those two lights are also part of a sunset/sunrise program I have with them and other lights outside.  So when sunrise comes, I'd like those lights turn off like normal + the KPL button LED turned off.

Thank you for any help.

[KHouse]

I found in the Wiki how to turn off all the other lights in that scene.  Now, it cleared the links that were on those buttons, so they dont work.  Only the NIGHT button works.  It turns ON all of the lights, instead of just turning on the 2 specified and turning OFF the rest.  I must be missing something here.

It also now cleared so that Alexa doesn't recognize any lights.  Still work to turn on/off via MobiLinc though.

Any advice on how to get the LED's to match between the KPL and the local buttons?

I've found that on the Wiki too, but it shows some LED programs in the instructions (copy/paste below) but doesn't have instructions on them, so am a bit confused.

ISY-99i/ISY-26 INSTEON:Creating a KeypadLinc LED Follow Program - Universal Devices, Inc. Wiki (universal-devices.com)

 

Then
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set Scene 'KeypadLinc LEDs / Family Evening Scene LED' On
 
Else
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set Scene 'KeypadLinc LEDs / Family Evening Scene LED' Off

Edited August 14, 2022 by KHouse

[MrBill]

In another thread you wanted the light behind that button to stay off, so I showed you how to configure it as Non-toggle off. 

I can't tell by your current question for sure, but it doesn't seem like you're building off that.

A "scene" can be considered "preset" when the "on" is sent everything in that scene is set according to the instructions in the scene.  When an "off" is sent to the scene however everything in the scene is set to off.

Here's an example of a scene that turns some things on and somethings off.

Note when you include other scene's within a scene, what you actually do is include ALL the members of that other scene, including it's button and set everything as it should be have in THIS scene.

For example all the entries that start with {hide} are keypad buttons on the same keypad.  (all 4 of these scene's actually have all the same members... The 4 scenes are Day, Evening, Late night, and bright.  The ISY normally cycles those scene's (except Bright) but they can be manually overridden using buttons on the keypad.)

[KHouse]

Thanks @MrBill

I'm working through this again today.  Unfortunately yesterday after building the scene and trying to build the programs around it, I ended up somehow clearing all the links between switches I have (only have links between the KPL buttons and the switches they control and 2 switches that are linked together for a double tap).  Also cleared something where Alexa (through Mobilinc) no longer recognizes any of the devices (and can't find them when querying for them).

Deleted those scenes, manually setup the links between switches again, and now trying my hand at these scenes.

However, while working through this, I'm questioning whether a scene is really needed for the type of NIGHT or MOVIE scene, for example.  Wouldn't it be easier to use a program?

If NIGHT button is pressed ON, then turn on 2 lights and turn off all other lights.  Easy program.  Amy I missing something there where a scene is more advantageous?

Now controlling the LED's is another "problem" I'll like to tackle after I get the NIGHT button program or scene done.

[KHouse]

Also, in your picture above, you have the "ACTION" heading.  I don't have that in my admin council.  Below is what I see.  Which is why I don't know if I'm trying to control the OFF in the scene correctly.  Shown here I have just loaded the 2 lights that are to be ON all night.  Loading the other lights into the scene now.

[lilyoyo1]

26 minutes ago, KHouse said:

Also, in your picture above, you have the "ACTION" heading.  I don't have that in my admin council.  Below is what I see.  Which is why I don't know if I'm trying to control the OFF in the scene correctly.  Shown here I have just loaded the 2 lights that are to be ON all night.  Loading the other lights into the scene now.

He's using recent firmware while you're using older 4.xxx series firmware

[KHouse]

Understood, thanks.

[KHouse]

I am at a loss here.  I believe I'm doing this correctly, but what is happening is baffling me.

The 6 button KPL has each of the buttons manually linked (switch to switch).  ON/OFF, LAUNDRY, GYM, HALL, NIGHT.

ON controls 3 basements lights linked to this button, GYM controls two lights, HALL one light, LAUNDRY one light.  All linked to the physical switch by pressing the set button and linking them.  All worked fine.  NIGHT is not linked to anything because I want this button to control a scene.

I create the scene having the NIGHT button as the controller, put in all other lights in the house as responders.  Set via the screens attached below to have 2 of the lights on all night (Foyer Hall Light and Kitchen Hall Light)...and the rest off when the NIGHT button is pressed.

Instead, pressing NIGHT turns on all the lights in the house, and has broken all the links again.  So the KPL buttons dont turn on/off their respective lights anymore.

What am I missing here?  I would except this to work correctly how I have it, but obviously I'm doing something wrong here.

Appreciate any help again!

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, KHouse said:

All linked to the physical switch by pressing the set button and linking them.

You can't do it that way.   Creating Scene's in the ISY is how you create links between devices.  If you manually link devices they don't include the PLM in the linkages.  The ISY MUST CREATE ALL DEVICE LINKS.

[KHouse]

9 minutes ago, MrBill said:

You can't do it that way.   Creating Scene's in the ISY is how you create links between devices.  If you manually link devices they don't include the PLM in the linkages.  The ISY MUST CREATE ALL DEVICE LINKS.

Is that because it's a KPL, or that is standard practice regardless of the KPL?

For example, I have a light switch (PATIO) that is linked to an upstairs light over the backyard (SPOTLIGHT).  It's manually/physically linked so the single tap on PATIO turns on the patio lights, but double tap on PATIO turns them both on.   Is that bad / should be done via ISY?

Secondly, each of the KPL buttons is linked manually, and has worked completely fine, until I tried this scene on the NIGHT button, and that killed all of the links.  So with that said, if I link via ISY, my NIGHT LIGHTS scene is still not working properly.  If I hit NIGHT...then all of the lights in the house turn on where I believe only 2 of the lights should.  Does it look programmed correctly from the screenshots?

Thanks again.

[Geddy]

7 minutes ago, KHouse said:

Is that because it's a KPL, or that is standard practice regardless of the KPL?

Regardless of the device. Scenes are what link switches within the ISY control. That is if you want the ISY to know the status of the switch at all times. If you have manual links ISY might not get updated if the switch isn't reporting to the PLM.

 

Maybe review this video for scene making:  https://youtu.be/hbkFnzBhKB4?t=436

Also read through the Wiki - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

(Most of the wiki scene information was written prior to or during 4.x firmware and should give you help with windows you're seeing.)

Your Patio/Spotlight example is something that could be done with a program for on and fast on. 

 

Scenes are handled much different now (in 5.x firmware). Most users have upgraded to 5.x so getting support in 4.x might be more difficult. I'm not suggesting to upgrade because that's a complicated process. I think you should fix/work out your issue before you consider changing firmware versions. 

Did you control the Insteon with a hub before going with ISY/PLM?  

[KHouse]

12 minutes ago, Geddy said:

Regardless of the device. Scenes are what link switches within the ISY control. That is if you want the ISY to know the status of the switch at all times. If you have manual links ISY might not get updated if the switch isn't reporting to the PLM.

 

Maybe review this video for scene making:  https://youtu.be/hbkFnzBhKB4?t=436

Also read through the Wiki - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

(Most of the wiki scene information was written prior to or during 4.x firmware and should give you help with windows you're seeing.)

Your Patio/Spotlight example is something that could be done with a program for on and fast on. 

 

Scenes are handled much different now (in 5.x firmware). Most users have upgraded to 5.x so getting support in 4.x might be more difficult. I'm not suggesting to upgrade because that's a complicated process. I think you should fix/work out your issue before you consider changing firmware versions. 

Did you control the Insteon with a hub before going with ISY/PLM?  

No, I've had the ISY for about 8 years or so.  Use it mostly for basic automation/control of the lights + have it setup to an ELK M1 for security.  Only used programs in the past.

I haven't installed a KPL before, and never really had the need, but with our kids growing up and playing in the basement more (and leaving lights on down there), figured it's better to replace the switch at the top of the basement stairs with a KPL and have more control of them.

The "instant on" to create the same effect as the double tap I can do with a program as you stated (I have it setup this way for a "Movie Night" type scene (though it's a program) in the family room where the instant on runs a program to turn on/off certain lights - no KPL there, just a regular rocker switch).  The manual linking/double tap has worked fine for us for the last 8 years as-is on the Patio/Spotlight, but does now introducing scenes (which include those lights) affect them in a way that the physical linking gets broken?  That is, if I have a manual/physical link between switches and I include that switch in a scene, does the ISY automatically break that manual link I created so you cannot do that anymore?  Just trying to understand what's occurring there.

I did read the scene WIKI, and honestly, I think I have it setup correctly.  I'm just not sure why the NIGHT button on the KPL turns all of the lights on in the house, instead of turning only the twoI want on and turning off the rest.  Any thoughts on this?

[KHouse]

Ok - figured out the issue causing the NIGHT button to turn on all lights instead of just the two lights.

In the settings/control for those lights in the scene, I only had the lights selected OFF on the scene heading screen.  Had to click on the NIGHT Button (within the scene, that is set as the controller) and select which lights are to be on and off there also.  Now it works.  Phew.

Now to figure out the LED control.  Will try to follow two links I have on that with instruction and hope it works out!

Edited August 14, 2022 by KHouse

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, KHouse said:

Is that because it's a KPL, or that is standard practice regardless of the KPL?

For example, I have a light switch (PATIO) that is linked to an upstairs light over the backyard (SPOTLIGHT).  It's manually/physically linked so the single tap on PATIO turns on the patio lights, but double tap on PATIO turns them both on.   Is that bad / should be done via ISY?

Secondly, each of the KPL buttons is linked manually, and has worked completely fine, until I tried this scene on the NIGHT button, and that killed all of the links.  So with that said, if I link via ISY, my NIGHT LIGHTS scene is still not working properly.  If I hit NIGHT...then all of the lights in the house turn on where I believe only 2 of the lights should.  Does it look programmed correctly from the screenshots?

Thanks again.

Manual linking shouldn't happen.  You use the ISY to create all links, whether KPL or not.  That way the link is included in the PLMs link table.  If the ISY doesn't create the link it doesn't follow what's happening.  Making scene's IS linking, its the same thing for basic scenes, but you can make more complex scene's as well using the ISY.

Another way of saying is that all switching programming and linking should be done via the ISY, don't manually do config modifications or links at the switch.

[KHouse]

3 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Manual linking shouldn't happen.  You use the ISY to create all links, whether KPL or not.  That way the link is included in the PLMs link table.  If the ISY doesn't create the link it doesn't follow what's happening.  Making scene's IS linking, its the same thing for basic scenes, but you can make more complex scene's as well using the ISY.

Another way of saying is that all switching programming and linking should be done via the ISY, don't manually do config modifications or links at the switch.

Understood, thanks.

What is the correct way to link a KPL button (say my LAUNDRY button) to the actual light switch in the laundry room?

As I had it before, I did the manual link between the two by pressing the set button and tying the two together.

Now without doing that, am I supposed to create a scene for a 3-way essentially?  The video link posted above showed how to do a 3-way between two switches using the scene (they are essentially setup reverse with the On/Off...or is there a different/better/correct way to do that.

Essentially asking what is the proper way to program my KPL LAUNDRY button to the light switch in the laundry room.

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, KHouse said:

What is the correct way to link a KPL button (say my LAUNDRY button) to the actual light switch in the laundry room?

Include both the laundry room switch and the KPL button in a scene and make them both controllers.  Both links in the scene should be Red.  That creates the same links that you made manually in the switches, but it also creates that link in the PLM-- by doing that the ISY is also a controller for the scene, and the ISY can follow along when the scene is turned on or off from either the switch or the keypad button.

[KHouse]

6 hours ago, MrBill said:

Include both the laundry room switch and the KPL button in a scene and make them both controllers.  Both links in the scene should be Red.  That creates the same links that you made manually in the switches, but it also creates that link in the PLM-- by doing that the ISY is also a controller for the scene, and the ISY can follow along when the scene is turned on or off from either the switch or the keypad button.

Thank you.