Insteon vs X10

[dbulck]

Is it me, or is Insteon flakier than X10, even though it is supposed to be FAR superior to X10? With my new Insteon setup, I have more communications failures, more lights not turning on or off than I EVER did with X10...probably about a 10 to 1 ratio? Any ideas?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi dbulck,

 

From a developer perspective and people who deal with different device communications protocols day/night, I must tell you that INSTEON is more reliable than any other protocol we have tested (including X10). This said, there are always noise/signal issues with any form of remote communications. And, sometimes, there are faulty devices that cause noise that may cause communications problems.

 

So, some questions:

1. Do you have any SwitchLinc v35s (as reported in the Admin Console) or firm 4.0 sticker on the unit?

2. Do you have any SignaLinc RFs (with Antenna)?

3. Is there a pattern to the communications problems? i.e. specific sections of the house or specific times of day?

4. Do you have any CFL/Halogen/Low voltage lighting?

 

Using process of elimination, we'll figure out what's causing the comm errors you are experiencing.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I've had better luck with insteon. Even with relative few X-10 devices comparted to my current total of insteon, I had more communication problems with X-10. I wonder if some of us remember X-10 more fondly because we were trying to do less, and using it in less critical applications.

 

Still, I have some X-10 left and have no plans to change it out.

[Goose66]

For me Insteon is far more reliable than X10. My problem with X10 was not devices not communicating, it was devices turning on and off randomly. I got a lot of that. My X10 monitor recorded all kinds of X10 traffic in my house. Attempting to change house codes didn't help. At one point, I decided it was my neighbor, who didn't particularly like me, screwing with me. But, after he was deported, the problems continued.

 

I have no such problems with Insteon. I do have an occasional failure of communication. It seems to happen most often with rapid firing of commands from the same controller, and usaully only manifests itself in blinking controller lights, not failure of a device to turn on and off. My ISY 99i, though, fails in communication more frequently than the Insteon devices themselves. Don't know where the problem lies there, however. May be the firmware, or the ISY hardware, or the PLM, or the outlet the PLM is plugged into , etc.

[dbulck]

The issues I'm seeing don't seem to have any pattern nor rhyme or reason. Some days, it works fine, others, one or two don't come on or don't go off. Then, like today, NOTHING went on at all. The UD admin console ALWAYS tells me that there is a communications failure - even when things work right. My old X10, using a HomeCommander, had much more capabilities for logic, date and security features AND a much, much lower failure rate on commands. I would say that in 8 years of X10 I have had less failures than the last 8 months of Insteon/ISY-99i/IR operation.

 

In answer to your questions, Michel, I have no V35s (or firmwayre 4.0 stickers), No Signalinc RF at all, as I stated no pattern (other than NO X10 control AT ALL - for 2 legacy wall-warts), but I do have CFL's on 2 of the wall switches. My install is, besides the 2 X10 wall-warts for the family room end-table lamps, 2 Insteon wall-warts for the living room end-table lamps and 2 installed wall switches (controlling the driveway and porch lights). Not even a very large or complex install. I'm at a loss.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi dbulck,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed explanations. I think you have raised two issues:

1. ISY capabilities compared to your previous solution

2. Device communication errors

 

These two issues are not quite related. As such, and if you don't mind, let's first figure out what's causing the communications problems and then we can address the deficiencies of our product.

 

As you may already know, INSTEON communications get better with more devices simply because each device repeats the signal. We have to also take into consideration bridging of phases. As such, I have three questions:

1. How far are the living room wall warts from the switches?

2. Are the wall warts Dual Band LampLincs?

3. Are you certain that all your INSTEON devices are on the same phase?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I would say that in 8 years of X10 I have had less failures than the last 8 months of Insteon/ISY-99i/IR operation.

 

I don't know about your house, but in mine, the communication environment on my electrical system has changed dramatically in 8 years, or even the last two years. In recent years, I have added more electrical devices, TVs, power supplies, new washers, dryers, refrigerators, water heaters, PC peripherals. All are computer controlled. In my house, all have contributed to signal degradation for my X-10, and now insteon, system.

 

I wonder if your experience with X-10 v insteon is simply related to an expanded arsenal of electronic stuff throughout your house. I wonder if, were you to go back to X-10 at this stage, you would experience the same level of communication success that you did 8 years ago, or even a couple years ago. If you are up for experimentation, you can give it a try. I have found insteon devices to also be very good X-10 devices. Give yours an X-10 address, eliminate your insteon links and scenes, and see if you have greater communication success. I would be surprised if this were the case.

 

I am also curious about how you bridged the phases for your X-10 system and whether that mechanism was still in place. I recall hearing of those who believe that some X-10 bridges can interfere with insteon.

[Goose66]

I can attest that having both the SignalLincs and an active X10 bridge is bad. Once I shut my X10 signal bridge down, it helped with Insteon stability. I don't know if it was just the active X10 signal bridge, or a combination of the active x10 signal bridge and the SignalLincs that was the problem. Also, I now have AccessPoints, and I haven't tried those in combination with the X10 bridge.

 

Something else that may have made a difference for me, because I had so many weird X10 problems, I invested a lot of time and money in finding noise sources and putting 5amp and 15amp filters in place, all of which are still there in my Insteon installation. I also do not have any halogen, fan, or CFLs on Insteon, because I removed them all from the corresponding X10 switches before upgrading.

 

I shutdown my X10 thermostats years ago because they were nothing but problems. I now have one Insteon thermostat that, with the v2.0 adaptor and no polling, seems to be fairly stable. I will be adding two more of these in the future. i would have never considered using X10 to control the thermostats while on vacation, but that is what I am doing with the Insteon.

 

All that being said, there do appear to be reliability issues with Insteon devices in general, especially PLMs and PLCs. It's not that the devices are cheap, and they certainly aren't inexpensive, but the fact that Smarthome still holds a monopoly on Insteon means that more reliable and robust devices won't find there way to market until the patents are up. I know that the availability and reliability of X10 devices improved dramatically as third parties (like Smarthome) got involved in that game.

[ergodic]

Hi dbulck:

 

I don't know exactly how to interpret "even when things work right," so I may be off here. But if you have random times when then entire install has comm issues from the ISY, I'd strongly suspect your PLM. I had one go haywire on me and that was pretty much the story. And they do go bad more often than they should apparently.

 

If you can, try exchanging and restore your PLM from the ISY. While the ISY makes this far easier than it would otherwise be, it would be great if the PLMs addresses were soft-programmable, but they aren't, so it's a bit of a mess: you have to put all the battery devices into link mode to restore them when you do a PLM swap.

 

The other issue is that SH has replaced the old PLM with a dual-band unit of some sort and there are some potential issues with the ISY and that new PLM. I was able to sidestep this by getting one of the last old PLMs in-stock, but you should check with Michel about the current status if you have to go that route.

[intellihome]

dbulck, My 2 cents is this...

You sound a lot like I did at first. I was very frustrated as I thought Insteon was the plug and play solution that fixed all the issues that I learned to overlook with my X10 system. I'm still not completely impressed but I'm coming around.

I have learned to remain patient and allow the great talant and helpful nature of the people on this forum to help me learn to understand this new technology. I know a lot of people that gave X10 a shot and gave up on it because they thought it was too difficult and finicky to get a reliable system. Sounds like you were one of the ones that stuck with it and had a successful system.

The same will hold true with Insteon, but in the end, I think we will truly have a professional integrated automation system and not just a novelty.

 

IMO Please take the time to answer the questions asked in response to your questions. Many times, it helps clarify my problem just as I start to answer the questions. At the same time the guys trying to help out can keep giving you suggestions if it's not working. Also, others may be following the thread with similar issues.