Fanlinc/KPL sync not working

[Sirmeili]

Not sure if this is the best place, but I am on a polisy. I have set up my fanlinc's and KPLs to control them. I have the same setup as described here: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY994i:INSTEON_Device:FanLinc-KPL_FanLinc_KeypadLinc_Configuration.

However, sometimes, not all times, when I turn off a fan from another device or integration (Remote or Home Assistant for instance), the KPLs LEDs to no show the correct state. What I notcied was that if I look in programs, all 4 of my programs run to keep the KPLs in Sync. Why is this?


My Biggest difference i can see is that in my programs I added a wait before each action. The reason for this is I found if I didn't, the problem was worse. I'm now up to a 2 s delay.

I was previously using HomeSeer's insteon plugin to control my KPLs and didn't seem to have this issu.

I've also noticed, in perhaps a related issue, sometimes when I initate a scene not from the device itself (say from the ISY dashboard) that the KPL buttons that are part of that scene don't always end up in the correct state.

I'm sure i'm missing lots of details, so if you let me know I'll grab whatever logs/details needed to help solve the issue. It tis a bit intermittant, but it's greatly affecting the WAF.

[Sirmeili]

I should also note that the ISY actually shows the correct state of the buttons. I.e. I turned off the fan the ISY (polisy) shows that A is ON and the other 3 are off, but if it was on High, the KPL still shows D lit (I use 4 buttons for my KPLs for fans in a few locations, but I've even seen this on a KPL that has 1 button for Off/High)

[Sirmeili]

back again. I turned on the diagnostics and used my mini remote to turn on the fan and this is what I got:



44:8E:4D is the MiniRemote (fan is button 2)
47:EB:8C is the fanlink (correctly set to high)
50:EE:D2 is the KPL (button 3 is "off" and button 6 is "high")

Looking in the admin, it says that the High LED is in fact on (6), and the LOW is off (3), but looking at the KPL, that is reversed. I can even see the programs ran again..... but not all 4 ran again for some reason.



Here are the Programs (seems I missed this room when updating them all to a 2 second wait, but I dont' think the wait should even be necessary):
Off:


Low:


Medium:


High:


And this is a scene which jsut shows what ISY thinks the LEDs status is


here is a picture of the KPL (excuse the dusty switch plate..LOL)

Edited July 24, 2023 by Sirmeili

[dbwarner5]

The simplest thing to try is to rebuild the scene.

 

Next step would be to then do a reset to default of the switch and re-writing the whole switch and then recreating the scene again.. delete the scene first. 

If you have the scene in lots of programs, name it slightly different when you recreate it, before you delete it, and then use the Find/ Replace in programs to replace the old scene with the new scene, then delete the old scene. 

[RPerrault]

is there a reason you need programs to do this?

i accomplish it without them

 

[Javi]

Assuming the programs trigger a scenes which turn on a single KPL button and turn off all the other KPL buttons.

If the values shown by ISY look correct but do not correspond to the actual value on the KPL, then the issue is likely not programing. It could be line noise,  an insteon device is starting to malfunction, or the insteon scene is not functioning correctly.  

I would first try removing equipment on the same circuit, then air gapping the KPL for a minute then restore links in the scene.

[Sirmeili]

18 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

is there a reason you need programs to do this?

i accomplish it without them

 

How do you do this? If I control the fanlinc directly in the isy the kpl buttons till be out of sync. Yes I could only use scenes but in other systems it's nice to be able to control one device instead of controlling 4 scenes.

 

11 minutes ago, Javi said:

Assuming the programs trigger a scenes which turn on a single KPL button and turn off all the other KPL buttons.

If the values shown by ISY look correct but do not correspond to the actual value on the KPL, then the issue is likely not programing. It could be line noise,  an insteon device is starting to malfunction, or the insteon scene is not functioning correctly.  

I would first try removing equipment on the same circuit, then air gapping the KPL for a minute then restore links in the scene.

My concern about the programs is why do they all "run" at once when only one meets the conditions? Is it the wait?

[RPerrault]

oh - i never use the isy to control devices from its interface

its not practical for me and i never met a wife that uses the isy interface either

my philosophy of home automation is not like most here - i try to make it easy to do what you want to do - not guess what you want done

[RPerrault]

and - scenes work with or without the isy

 

[Javi]

2 hours ago, RPerrault said:

is there a reason you need programs to do this?

i accomplish it without them

 

If controlling the fanlink using native controls (high/med/low) from Alexa or a mobile app the kpl will be out of sync.  

1 hour ago, Sirmeili said:

My concern about the programs is why do they all "run" at once when only one meets the conditions? Is it the wait?

They are all evaluated, if you had something in the else condition the actions would be triggered. 

Based on your image the ISY is showing the state you want and logs the same but the kpl is not in sync with ISY.   This usually happens when there are multiple devices in a scene with communication issues and the scene, however because it is a single device in the scene my guess the same device is the culprit..... I've had KPLs with issues evey couple of years, pulling out the set button for a minute usually fixes the issues.

[RPerrault]

until alexa has the ability to know the fan by the alexa location, i don't use it to operate fans

it can become formulaic speech with 'guest bedroom fan to low' instead of 'fan to low'

i whined to michel to give alexa location awareness until alexa routines gave me that with lights ('turn the lights off' instead of 'turn the guest bedroom lights off')

but i do have a ton of pedestals with keypads and remotes to operate fans

 

[Sirmeili]

2 hours ago, RPerrault said:

oh - i never use the isy to control devices from its interface

its not practical for me and i never met a wife that uses the isy interface either

my philosophy of home automation is not like most here - i try to make it easy to do what you want to do - not guess what you want done

I don't either, but I do use Home assistant and automations over there to combine multiple technologies. I only use the polisy for insteon.

 

1 hour ago, Javi said:

If controlling the fanlink using native controls (high/med/low) from Alexa or a mobile app the kpl will be out of sync.  

They are all evaluated, if you had something in the else condition the actions would be triggered. 

Based on your image the ISY is showing the state you want and logs the same but the kpl is not in sync with ISY.   This usually happens when there are multiple devices in a scene with communication issues and the scene, however because it is a single device in the scene my guess the same device is the culprit..... I've had KPLs with issues evey couple of years, pulling out the set button for a minute usually fixes the issues.

I will give that try tomorrow and if that doesn't work I'll try resetting the devices and restoring them. Thanks!

[MrBill]

(disclaimer: I didn't carefully read everything said after I saw the issue, but I did skim it and didn't see anyone really pointing this out directly.)

It's much easier to use 3 or 4 scene's, one each for Low, Medium, High and optionally one for off, although you can really do off with any of the first 3 scenes).   Once you've converted to the multi-scene method, then your programs, Home Assistant, etc can all turn on or off the appropriate scene and the buttons will stay in synch, rather than using all the helper programs you have to update buttons status afterwards.

[brians]

I did similar and worked for years. Like the instructions say, you need to have separate led sync programs that check for the state of the fanlinc and calls the appropriate scene which will also set the KPL LEDs.  I don't do exactly same way and found you also don't need to waste a KPL button for Fan off since they all toggle so just press whatever one is lit up to turn off again

Therefore, I don't check if kpl is off to turn it on, it doesn't hurt anything this way if one of the sync programs is triggered by actual scene or physical button, and can use the buttons to toggle fan speed on/off and eliminate the discrete off button to use for something else.

 

Master Bedroom Fan Hi - [ID 003B][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is High
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Hi' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Hi' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Bedroom Fan Lo - [ID 003D][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is Low
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Lo' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Lo' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Bedroom Fan Med - [ID 003C][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is Medium
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Med' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Med' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I replaced my KPL that controled fan recently and am using Home assistant and a different device, so just going from old docs/notes here. I don't have the scenes anymore since I deleted them from IoX, but I think I just had the KPL for each scene turn on or off. When the state of fanlinc changes, it will trigger the appropriate program to set the corresponding scene based on lo, med, hi. The elses in the other programs will also trigger, turning those LEDs off (it will turn off LEDs that are already off, but doesn't matter really and keeps the programs simple).

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by brians

[Sirmeili]

4 hours ago, MrBill said:

(disclaimer: I didn't carefully read everything said after I saw the issue, but I did skim it and didn't see anyone really pointing this out directly.)

It's much easier to use 3 or 4 scene's, one each for Low, Medium, High and optionally one for off, although you can really do off with any of the first 3 scenes).   Once you've converted to the multi-scene method, then your programs, Home Assistant, etc can all turn on or off the appropriate scene and the buttons will stay in synch, rather than using all the helper programs you have to update buttons status afterwards.

I don't do use scenes like this but in HomeAssistant o prefer to not use scenes to control fans because it would take either 4 buttons or scripting to mimic a fan to control the 3/4 scenes. I would rather control the fan directly which is why I need the programs to keep the kpls in sync. Fanlincs

 

1 hour ago, brians said:

I did similar and worked for years. Like the instructions say, you need to have separate led sync programs that check for the state of the fanlinc and calls the appropriate scene which will also set the KPL LEDs.  I don't do exactly same way and found you also don't need to waste a KPL button for Fan off since they all toggle so just press whatever one is lit up to turn off again

Therefore, I don't check if kpl is off to turn it on, it doesn't hurt anything this way if one of the sync programs is triggered by actual scene or physical button, and can use the buttons to toggle fan speed on/off and eliminate the discrete off button to use for something else.

 

Master Bedroom Fan Hi - [ID 003B][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is High
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Hi' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Hi' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Bedroom Fan Lo - [ID 003D][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is Low
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Lo' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Lo' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Bedroom Fan Med - [ID 003C][Parent 0033]

If
        'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Fan' Status is Medium
 
Then
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Med' On
 
Else
        Set 'MBedroom Fanlinc Scenes / Master Bedroom KPL Fan Med' Off
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I replaced my KPL that controled fan recently and am using Home assistant and a different device, so just going from old docs/notes here. I don't have the scenes anymore since I deleted them from IoX, but I think I just had the KPL for each scene turn on or off. When the state of fanlinc changes, it will trigger the appropriate program to set the corresponding scene based on lo, med, hi. The elses in the other programs will also trigger, turning those LEDs off (it will turn off LEDs that are already off, but doesn't matter really and keeps the programs simple).

 

My kpls differ from room to room. For instance the living room kpl (8-button) controls lights, I few outlets and 4 fans (each only one button). 

I use the 4 button in rooms where I really don't have a need for the buttons for something else. In one room I only ose 2 buttons for the fan (on/off). I know it could be one but I don't have a use for the other button so why not.

[Sirmeili]

Quick update:

So air gapped it today and that seemed to work. I will monitor it and see if it happens again. Have other scenes though where I explicitly set buttons off (like a turn the whole room off scene) and in those the whole scene triggers, but the buttons don't, which is odd. I did not try to air gap those but will if I see it again.

 

Thanks all!

[Sirmeili]

So this is back to happening. ISY says the KPL is in the correct state, but the KPL remains in the wrong state. I have another thread going about another issue, but it was stated that Insteon waits for states. My guess is that button states aren't "verified" because they are set by scenes? Which makes me wonder if the KPL is reporting the scene has been executed and it's just not executing it.

I'm thinking of a factory reset and then just having the ISY rewrite the links.

[MrBill]

Devices talk back...  Scenes don't.  

Send ON to a device, the device responds to the sender.  Send ON to a Scene, responders turn on but don't generate traffic. 

Device:

Scene:

I think the original design consideration (way back almost 20 years ago) was that acknowledgement of signal received was the thing X10 users wanted the most, therefor device ACKnowledge receipt of a signal.  However due to the relatively slow speed of wireline transmission it's not practical to do that for more than 1:1 communication.  Consider I have a scene use as "downstairs-All Off"... it has 40+ responders, if all 40 responders had to acknowledge it would take way to long and jamb up the network.

[Sirmeili]

I changed from calling a light directly to calling a scene and here are the logs. I really REALLY wish they had MS in the times  Looks like the first one was maybe 1s? but the second one it's hard to tell. It didn't seem that much faster, but it's hard to compare from hours ago when I tested the other way.