Need help with ZWave Group 2 Association

[peterathans]

I've been trying to link two on/off switches with Group 2 association and am not succeeding, hopefully someone here can help.

To start:  Two Zooz ZEN71 on/off switches, both flashed with latest firmware (10.20) and cleared with a factory reset.  No internal config values changed (everything left at factory default), as Zooz recommends here.  Switches are both mounted in a 2-gang plastic box for testing, and wired into an extension cord pigtail.  The box is sitting less than three feet from my ZMatter board connected to a Polisy, running IoX 5.7.0.

Following some other threads, I then created a scene and added the On-Off Power Switch and SC Basic Assoc 2 members from each switch, as shown here:

I then updated the SC Basic Assoc 2 members to use Z-Wave Basic MC S2 Auth for the opposite switch's On-Off Power Switch, and to ignore its own On-Off Power Switch, as shown here:

Basically, I'm getting inconsistent behavior from this setup.  Sometimes toggling one switch will make the other toggle quickly, other times the other switch will toggle late (like several seconds), and sometimes the same switch I just toggled will then toggle back to its previous state.

Anyone have any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?

 

[peterathans]

Any help with this?  I'm sure others on this forum have done some work with Zwave associations...

[Bumbershoot]

I find Z-Wave group associations to work, but they're a bit sketchy.  I don't really have any useful advice.  You might look in this thread to see if there's any useful information:

 

[peterathans]

Yeah I saw that post, but it wasn't clear, and the example has the added complication of including an Insteon switch in the mix.  I was looking for something more straightforward.

@Michel Kohanim are there any wikis that cover Zwave scenes/associations?  I couldn't find one.

[peterathans]

Polisy seems to be linking the two switches together with Group 2 associations, when I check the X-Ray / Associations, they each appear in the other switch's Group 2 table:

All Assocations for node 11 (0x0B)

Assocation version=3 groups=3
 | Group  1 : max=1   []
 | Group  2 : max=5   []
 | Group  3 : max=5   []

MultiChannel-Association version=4 groups=3
 | Group  1 : max=1   [0100]
 | Group  2 : max=5   [0100 0C00]
 | Group  3 : max=5   [0100]

All Assocations for node 12 (0x0C)

Assocation version=3 groups=3
 | Group  1 : max=1   []
 | Group  2 : max=5   []
 | Group  3 : max=5   []

MultiChannel-Association version=4 groups=3
 | Group  1 : max=1   [0100]
 | Group  2 : max=5   [0100 0B00]
 | Group  3 : max=5   [0100]

 

[peterathans]

And yet the behavior of these two switches is very erratic

[brians]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:32 AM, peterathans said:

And yet the behavior of these two switches is very erratic

I never really used much, or had a need for basic assoc after posting that, but since then I discovered the switches can get into a loop where they send the commands back and forth to each other, and this has to be addressed in the switch itself. Most of my initial testing of basic association was prior to ZMatter using Silicon Labs software to program them on a PC, therefore the switches acted differently, and I did not do much testing after. I was hoping to get Zen32 working with basic association but there were issues with LED sync, and since there were other non-Z-Wave devices I would also want to control the conclusion was using programs/parameters is the best way for that device.

For the Zen71 switch, Set Parameter 7 to 11 (1 also works, but Zooz recommends 11 - I suppose in the case that you have a regular switch setup in a 3-way with follower, and a virtual 3-way with basic association) on the remote switch (one not connected to the actual load, where the main switch I will refer to it as the one which controls the load) and this should make it work properly.

https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/535-zen71-on-off-switch-700-advanced-settings/

Note that after this change, when you turn on/off the remote switch from IoX, it will not send a group 2 to the main switch, and will therefore not turn it on. This doesn't matter because now should just use the main switch in any automations done from the IoX controller, and ignore the remote switch status (they act as one switch now). Physically pressing the paddles on the remote switch will still send group 2 to main though as intended (as per Parameter 7 setting).

Here is Zooz article about this.

How To Program 2 Zooz Switches In a Virtual 3-Way With Regular Bulbs - Zooz Support Center (getzooz.com)

I would have updated my original thread but they seem to close topics here abruptly for no apparent reason... maybe it is automatic setting which closes them after no activity for a while.

I would recommend to use z-wave basic association only for areas where a virtual 3-way is desired but there was not one originally (ie. no followers). If you are replacing a real 3-way, then use the proper companion switch and existing follower, in the case of Zen71 you can use a regular switch configured via Parameter 12.

More ancient history about virtual 3-ways...  this is why Insteon acts the way it does with its scenes and virtual 3-ways: when operating a switch physically, it sends the scene command to other linked switch(es) that are responders, but when operating the main switch remotely from IoX, it does not send scene commands to the remote, otherwise if Insteon acted this way, it would result in a similar loop and flood the network. This is why you use scenes from a controller, or programs to keep the remote switches on/off state in sync, the latter which I prefer. This used to drive me crazy . Mobilinc mobile app, which many used years ago, actually didn't act like this and would turn on/off remote linked devices somehow magical like... this did not make sense and confused me LOL... it was not until years later, I believe I asked, or someone else did somewhere (cannot remember now exactly), and the dev clarified that is was programmed to act this way.

Edited October 15, 2023 by brians

[peterathans]

Thanks for the post - interestingly, a few weeks ago I opened a ticket and worked on a remote session with @Chris Jahn where we discovered the same thing - the first time you press a switch, the other responds right away, but then they both send a bunch of back-and-forth traffic for a few seconds after (effectively stomping on any further button presses, or even commanding the original switch to return to its previous state).

Just before the Polisy had the ability to assign Group 2 associations I had asked Zooz about the ZEN71 on/off switch abilities and whether there was any other magic required, and this was their response:

 

"We had our technicians run some additional testing here.

They have confirmed that you will not need to change any settings on either the remote or the main device, simply associate the switches in group 2. They confirmed that the associations worked right away and responded to toggles manually and through Z-Wave. They tested toggling from both the remote device and controlled device, and both devices maintained status accuracy while toggling from mixed areas (manual on the paddle or through z-wave)."

(FYI I'm running the ZEN71 on/off switches, not dimmers)

This seems to conflict with your suggestion to change parameter 7, and in fact the article you link to (How To Program 2 Zooz Switches In a Virtual 3-Way With Regular Bulbs) also says that only a Group 2 association needs to be set, there are not internal parameter changes.

[brians]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:06 AM, peterathans said:

 

This seems to conflict with your suggestion to change parameter 7, and in fact the article you link to (How To Program 2 Zooz Switches In a Virtual 3-Way With Regular Bulbs) also says that only a Group 2 association needs to be set, there are not internal parameter changes.

Yes, and  I am sure that about a year ago when I first updated to ZMatter and played with this that this was not the case... maybe something has changed, or I did not test fully, or maybe a firmware update in Zen71 changed the operation how they work.

I  was testing in Home Assistant basic assoc in Z-Wave JS UI,  and came across this looping - after some research I found that I had to do this parameter on one switch to prevent. I don't have much of a need for Basic Assoc anymore anyways since HA seems much faster and more reliable at processing Z-Wave.