New home - Should I use Insteon?

[Jay M]

I have been using Insteon with a 994i for a very long time.  Maybe 15 years?  I don't even know how many Insteon devices I have, but maybe 50.  Every light switch is Insteon, I have a main water valve controlled by Insteon and integrated with Insteon leak sensors. I use Kaypads, wireless remotes, and ir from my URC remote to control the lights. Through the 994ir I've had everything controlled by Alexa for many years too.  

I'm all in on Insteon.

But for the new house, starting from scratch, is Insteon the way to go? 

Here's what I like:

• The switches feel good, and look good
• The switches are link together independently of the hub or internet. 
• a switch can control a load, on just be a hard wired controller
• adjustable ramp rate
• While not perfect, communication only fails 1 out of a 1000 times - unless something is broken, then all bets are off.
• huge product line 
  • dimmers
  • relays
  • motion sensors
  • keypads
  • wireless remotes
  • low voltage sensors and controls
  • inline dimmers
  • outdoor relay

What I don't like is that the new ownership might fail and Insteon will go away, so I'll lose an investment $4000 and a lot of time.  Also, the build quality of the Insteon products is hit or miss. 

What's the best solution?  The Insteon feature set is hard to beat.  

Thanks!

~Jay

 

[paulbates]

FWIW,

I recently sold my house of 20+ years, of which about 13 of those years had Insteon devices.

I've moved into a new-to-me house with my new wife, and have begun automating, again, using insteon. I've mostly gone with the new I3 which greatly enhances an already great product line... for the reasons you listed, plus

• No compatibility mis-matches across multiple vendors of a single standard
• I have a hard time financially justifying the move up to established higher end, higher priced products, where its not clear the feature set is as rich
• I'll agree to disagree on build quality; with it being certain products like the PLM. My last PLM from the '17 time frame worked through me selling the house. The new owners have been specific about not letting 2 cheap capacitors ruin an otherwise well designed product. The new I3 products feel more solid, are more flexible. In fact the i3 outlet can take a 100 watt yard light transformer that is only 6 wire feet away from it and function perfectly.. that would have numbed the old outletlinc.. the point being I'm seeing serious effort going into it,.

I've been on this forum a lot of the time I've had Insteon and there's been constant messaging from a number of members that "Insteon's not going to make it, etc". While I replaced some switches in my old house due to switch failures/issues, most of the time Insteon made good and replaced them, most of the other's came after a brown out or lightning strike.

During the last 5 years of my last house, my attention was focused elsewhere than my HA system, and the Insteon devices, and my ISY 994i just worked. I wasn't worried about them.

Today, I'm on my way past $600 of new Insteon gear and my new wife likes the enhancements Insteon HA brings so new requests are coming in for me to automate.

The clifnotes version is, yes there's a risk, personally I think it's low and my wife is happy with the look, feel and operation of Insteon.. it just works.

Because I have my new eisy and it would be the pathway to integrate zwave or zigbee in the worst case scenario... but I'd still keep the Insteon devices as long as they work.

I'm not against other powerline technologies and other members will have things to say about them. 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by paulbates

[Goose66]

I moved 14 months ago from a house that’s was almost all Insteon (switchlincs, keypadlincs, lamplincs, iolincs, in-line modules, thermostats, leak sensors, and IRLinc… that’s all I can remember). But I could not justify putting Insteon in my new townhome. Newco has a little better track record now than when I moved, but the protocol is closed and completely proprietary, and if they fold (again) you’re stuck with what you have.

I have a variety of devices now —including some old Insteon that moved with me — because I do a lot of home automation testing and programming, but if I were just looking for a whole house system, I would want wi-fi connected switches and modules with updateable firmware, MQTT support, and future Matter compatibility. You may have to wait just a little longer to get a solid high-end switch with these capabilities, but it should be worth the wait.

If you are building in the U.S. right now, the one thing I recommend is deep j-boxes!

[Jay M]

1 hour ago, Goose66 said:

 

If you are building in the U.S. right now, the one thing I recommend is deep j-boxes!

YES!  In my current house, some of the switch plates are bulging.  It looks terrible. The new house is 20 years old, but I'll be adding a lot to it and remodeling. I told the contractor to use deep boxes.  I hope he understood.

 

Thanks for your reply!  what you say to wait, what are you waiting for?  Is there a specific product that you have in mind?

~Jay

[Jay M]

Thanks Paul,

That's really helpful information.  I am keeping the same wife in the new house, so it's good that she already knows how to work the Insteon stuff.  Actually, they are just switches, so there isn't really a learning curve, but either way, she'll appreciate the familiar look. I tend to be obsessed with gadgets and electronics, and my wife tends to be more Amish. haha.

Even though Insteon is a bit of a risk, they have been around for a really long time and it all still works together.

~Jay

[Jay M]

I should ask.  What is the i3?  Is it significantly different than the old stuff?

~Jay

Edited November 13, 2023 by Jay M

[Goose66]

16 minutes ago, Jay M said:

what are you waiting for?  Is there a specific product that you have in mind?

What I really want is something Leviton-like with a high-end feel, good node server (now “plugin”) support for my Polisy, preferably Wi-fi based, that supports real-time state updates now, e.g., MQTT, and will support Matter in the future with a firmware upgrade. 
 

Currently I have some Tasmota switches from Martin Jerry on one floor. They are inexpensive, but look and feel a little cheap, and because Tasmota is a “try to be everything to everybody” kind of firmware, each different type of Tasmota switch requires a little tweaking to make it work like IoX expects, and the configuration is done on a per switch basis. They are wi-fi and rock solid in operation once installed and communicating with the IoX Tasmota Plugin.

I am also playing with some Shelly modules on my main floor. They are installed in the j-box in a 3-way configuration with the existing switch (Leviton Decora, in my case) so you need room in your j-boxes. These can be flashed with Tasmota for support with the Tasmota Pligin now, and I am looking into developing a Shelly-specific Plugin that could give much more native-like support to IoX with not only basic control and state, but configuration right in the Admin Console (fingers crossed).

One thing that I do like about Insteon is its ability to add instant links between switches, keypads, and devices without needing IoX or other hub/controller in the mix. Some of this can be done in Tasmota and maybe Shelly, but it was easy to do in Insteon and seemed rock-solid in operation, even when communications from IoX through the PLM were flaky.

[tlightne]

@Goose66 Shelly has a lot of interesting devices. I will be a buyer of your Shelly plugin when it is ready. Already running Shelly RGBW led controllers...

[paulbates]

2 hours ago, Jay M said:

I should ask.  What is the i3?  Is it significantly different than the old stuff?

~Jay

I'm not sure protocol wise how I3 is different.

There are basically 3 new I3 products from Insteon.

• A paddle switch - looks good, operates good, smaller package. It can be configured as a dimmer or an on/off.
   
• On/off Outlet. Same as the paddle, but only an on/off. My first test for it was plugging a 100watt landscape transformer with only 6' of power cord... works perfectly. The old ones had difficulty with transformer noise on 20' of power cord.
   
• 4 button keypad. Haven't tried it yet but I think 4 buttons is less confusing for most occupants than 8. I'm assuming the operation and smaller package attributes apply

Its worth buying one I3 paddle and trying it.

The great thing about the eisy and the strong, long term developer community is that you have options to integrate many different powerline technologies

[Goose66]

Plus a rotary dial for i3, right?

[wmcneil]

I am also having to make the "what to use in the new house" decision.  I have a house (2nd home) full of insteon devices (30ish) that I've been using for 12 years now. Started with ISY994, now running polisy with Zmatter (I have added some zwave along the way, have about 10 zwave devices).

I moved into my primary home four years ago, and choose to not use any Insteon devices there. I'm also running polisy with Zmatter in the primary home, around 40 devices. Now I'm selling the primary home, and am considering selling my 2nd home as well. So I definitely have the "what to do for the new house" decision for one house, and maybe for a second one as well.

Yes, the build quality of the insteon products is excellent (with the exception of the notorious problem with the PLM, until that got resolved.) But it is a single-sourced product line, and I am unwilling to be backed into that corner, and potentially loose a huge investment in time and money. This is why I choose not to use any Insteon in my current primary home.

So what to do in a new house now? My single-source concerns with Insteon take that off the table for me. So currently, the only multi-source option is Zwave or Wi-Fi. Perhaps in the future Matter devices will become another multi-sourced option, and with Zmatter I will have that option. Here is my experience with Zwave and WiFi devices:

Sensors and repeaters: I have a number of ZOOZ sensors and repeaters, they seem well made, and have been reliable.

Switches: I currently have a bunch of GE (Jasco) brand wall switches and plug in modules. I have not had trouble with them, but it has been only 4 years, and they don't appear to have the higher end build quality that I would prefer. I need to look at the Zooz switches and see if they would be  a good choice.

Water valve: , I recently bought a zwave EcoNet EVC200 that will work with a very wide range of manual valves and piping systems, and it seems to have good build quality and a robust motor (time will tell).  I also have a Dome brand water control valve that is good quality and has been reliable for the 4 years I have used it, but it works with only a copper piping system.

Thermostat: Honeywell makes both zwave and wifi, and I have had good experiences with both. 

Door lock:  I have had good experience with Kwikset zwave, and Kwikset has a SmartKey feature that makes re-keying either their "smart" or "conventional" locks a breeze.

Garage Door Opener control: This is an area where I don't see many choices out there. I have used GoControl zwave devices for about 4 years now, and they work well. One complaint: If the power glitches off and back on quickly, sometimes the GoControl initiates into a mode where it is stuck beeping forever, until power is removed for several seconds, and then reapplied. (My wife and I find this particular glitch most annoying.)

On a somewhat related note, I am totally invested in Harmony remote controls and hubs, and I live in fear of Logitech shutting down their servers. (This is exactly the nightmare single-source scenario that has me steering clear of insteon for new installs.)....I am still an old school amplifier and speakers (home theater) guy, and I must have a physical remote control. I keep watching for something to replace Harmony which does not require a home equity line of credit to pay for or maintain, and no joy so far.

 

[Andy P]

I recently went through the new build process and after looking at alternatives, I did choose Insteon again.

Make sure work with your electrician:

1. tell them you want power and neutral in every electrical box. This is not always the case when they wire three way switches unless you ask.

2. think about a couple places in the house where you make the jbox one place wider than the number of switches planned for that location. That allows you to put a scene controller in without having to use it to control a load - mostly I like this with the 8 button kpls. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Andy P

[Jay M]

6 hours ago, Andy P said:

2. think about a couple places in the house where you make the jbox one place wider than the number of switches planned for that location. That allows you to put a scene controller in without having to use it to control a load - mostly I like this with the 8 button kpls. 

That's a really good idea.  I just hope Insteon will offer an etching service for their new 4-button switch soon. 

I decided to go with Insteon again but with a new Eisy - not to be confused with easy! haha.  It's as if they try to make it difficult just to keep the riff raff out.

I bought a few i3 devices to test out.  I haven't installed them yet, but the feel and perceived build quality is outstanding. I'll add them to one of the rooms to test while the house is under construction.  

One thing that impressed me with Insteon was that I have one older switch in the Gazebo out by the pool which gets its power from the pool's sub panel.  The Eisy is in the house 60 feet away an communicates perfectly with the gazebo. 

I decided that the risk to install Insteon is low.  I think it's great that it's back in the hands of the enthusiasts who made it. It was, however, nice when Smart home had those incredible sales - that's when I would stock up on spare switches and expand my system.  I don't even think the new Insteon had a black Friday sale. But the overall investment isn't too high.  maybe $2500 in switches. I haven't added them all up yet.  If I buy some spares, I'll be good to go for many years even if the company folds. 

~Jay

[Jay M]

On 12/17/2023 at 8:52 AM, wmcneil said:

 

On a somewhat related note, I am totally invested in Harmony remote controls and hubs, and I live in fear of Logitech shutting down their servers. (This is exactly the nightmare single-source scenario that has me steering clear of insteon for new installs.)....I am still an old school amplifier and speakers (home theater) guy, and I must have a physical remote control. I keep watching for something to replace Harmony which does not require a home equity line of credit to pay for or maintain, and no joy so far.

 

Thanks for your insight.  I'm going to take a risk and stich the the devil I know. 

Have you looked at URC remotes?  I still love my MX-780.  URC is a bit hostile to the enthusiast community, but in my case, because I purchased through an authorized dealer who closed his business, they allowed me access to their programming software. With MX-780, I have 100% control over my remote.  Every button does what I want it to do. Even though I had one break, I found a like new replacement on ebay for $19. 

~Jay

[Geddy]

13 minutes ago, Jay M said:

I don't even think the new Insteon had a black Friday sale.

I think they did, just not site wide like they might have in the past. I think I recall getting an email about a sale last month. I don't keep them because I'm not currently looking to expand. But make sure you sign up for their email lists from their site.

15 minutes ago, Jay M said:

I just hope Insteon will offer an etching service for their new 4-button switch soon. 

There's a 3rd party service out there offering etching. I'm not sure what 4 button switch you're talking about, but think they might be starting it soon. Worth reviewing the thread:

 

[wmcneil]

12 minutes ago, Jay M said:

Thanks for your insight.  I'm going to take a risk and stich the the devil I know. 

Have you looked at URC remotes?  I still love my MX-780.  URC is a bit hostile to the enthusiast community, but in my case, because I purchased through an authorized dealer who closed his business, they allowed me access to their programming software. With MX-780, I have 100% control over my remote.  Every button does what I want it to do. Even though I had one break, I found a like new replacement on ebay for $19. 

~Jay

The issue with URC is that mere mortals can not obtain the software, as their business model includes the consumer paying a dealer for any and all programming.

[Jay M]

25 minutes ago, Geddy said:

 

There's a 3rd party service out there offering etching. I'm not sure what 4 button switch you're talking about, but think they might be starting it soon. Worth reviewing the thread:

 

I'm referring to the new i3 Keypad.  I'll see if the people you linked can etch this one too.

~Jay

[Jay M]

They do!

https://domotinc.com/products/i3-keypad

Thanks for the tip.

~Jay

[sjenkins]

I have majority Insteon & would build with it again.

I must say the protocol is just so solid.  I have messed with and have going z-wave, wifi - mqtt (which are fun), and do use yo-link for leak, temp, water valve.  For switches I have not had a better experience than Insteon.  The I3 stuff has a very nice feel to it, I do hope that 'newco' has the resources to eventually update the whole line... especially the PLM.

[MarkARMitchell]

Ah, I'm so happy to find this topic! We're building from a new home and will be moving out of one that's had Insteon switches for years (replacing an initial supply of X10 switches!). There seem to be so many more choices than there were when I started adding my Insteon switches, so this is a useful discussion.

Multiple questions: I'm using an ISY994 in my current house, but I'm gathering that's been superseded by a new controller from ISY. Any benefits or drawbacks from updating to a new controller?

As for the i3 switches: Any significant benefits over the 2477D? Is their performance dimming LCD bulbs any better than the 2477D? Maybe its the bulbs I'm using (mostly GE Reveal LEDs), but I miss the smooth ramp-up that I had with incandescent bulbs. The GE Reveal bulbs do ramp up, but they jump from around 0 to 20% before ramping from 20% to 100%, and that's irritating. 

Thanks in advance!

[paulbates]

41 minutes ago, MarkARMitchell said:

As for the i3 switches: Any significant benefits over the 2477D?

You'll need the new isy eisy to use the i3 switches.. they aren't supported on the 994i. If you're building new you'll want the eisy as the 994 line is at the end of product development lifecycle

I love the i3 line, and I'm a long time insteon user

Edited February 24 by paulbates

[Jay M]

I decided to spend some money and do some testing before I spends thousands of dollars.  

 i3 vs. 2477D:

The i3 has a satin finish and the 2477D is glossy.  If you are an OCD type of person. you'll want - no, need it all to match.

The i3 doesn't have a frame around the rocker.  That can be problematic when you need to cram a bunch of switches into a small box.  The i3 rocker can get stuck on the wall plate.  On the plus side, it will be a cleaner look if you can make it work.

I bought 3 brands of dim to warm down lights to test - Lotus $80 each, DMF H series, also about $80 each, and a $25 Halo from Lowes.  

The i3 didn't allow the LEDs to dim as low as the older 2477D.  So I don't plan to use it.

One thing I noticed in testing was how the lights would power on.  All 3 would sort of pop on at 20%, then smoothly continue to brighten.  But if I used the app to control the dimer and set the slider to 3%, after a second or so, the LED would softly begin to glow. It's as if the LED driver needs to energize first.  I think with some clever programming, I can make a scene that will fade on almost as nice as a $1 incandescent bulb.

In case you are interested here's how the lights look...

DMF H series - great color, but when you dim down to 15%, they just cut off instantly-  they don't fade out slowly.

Lotus  LF4R-HO - outstanding dimming, but they never get very warm.  The spec is 3000 k to 2000 k.  But at the dimmest point, they looked pretty cool white.

The Halo dimmed nicely - not as nice as the Lotus, but close.  They are 2700 k at the brightest and dim to 1800 k.  I don't think that is accurate - they get really warm when you dim them, almost a yellow-red color like a candle.  In a log cabin or a 100+ year-old house, that color range would be perfect.  But maybe too warm for my somewhat modern new construction.  Also, the Halo are large 6" retrofit fixtures, where the Lotus and DMF are more modern 4" fixtures.

To get the absolute best dimming from an LED, I believe you need to spend $200+ per fixure and use a more modern Dali LED driver to dim.  Stuff like that is for commercial or really high-end residential.  Sadly, not for me.

 

Insteon impressions:

I went ahead and bought the eisy just for testing.  It's fine.  It uses the software you are used to, but you lose ir control if that matters to you.  I tested Insteon in what I would describe as a worst case scenario.  It's in the new house that is under construction.  The eisy and Wifi router are in the master bedroom, and I added one lamp dimmer in that room just to create a bit of a network.  The other Insteon dimmer is about 100' away in the pool gazebo.  It gets its power from the sub panel that powers the pool equipment.  And it works!  

Insteon is owned by the passionate people who created it.  For that reason, I believe the Insteon product line will outlast most others. Many big name companies are dabbling in smart switches, but how strong is their commitment?  My personal investment into Insteon will be about $5000.  If the company goes under the day after I install them, they will still work for 10 years - I plan to buy lots of spare switches.  If, in two years, there truly is a better solution, then in my case the $5000 expense and time commitment isn't the end of the world, but the new thing would need to dazzle me! 

Even though Insteon is old, I can still control it with the brand new Alexa Hub. Plus, the Insteon product line is huge and very complete.

For all those reasons,  I think Insteon is best for me.

 

[slimypizza]

I echo the sentiment of the Insteon hardware. Big fan.  On the subject of the I3 however, I’m not so impressed.  Indeed my attempt to replace a 2477D with an I3 this weekend did not turn out well.  The switch kept getting stuck on the wall plate when turning on and off.  I tried several times to make it fit better then gave up. Didn’t even get as far to realize the dimming range was not comparable to the 2477D.  I wont be using the I3 unless there is a design change.