Best ISY supported "smart" water main shutoff valve?

[Merlin]

I am running an eISY with a mix of Insteon and Z-Wave devices, including a couple of flood sensors, but no automation for the water shutoff if a leak is detected.

My water main currently uses a traditional gate valve so I assume I'll have to replace it to add any automation. If I replace the existing gate valve with a ball valve, then I could use an external valve actuator like the Zooz Titan. However, there are also "smart" valves out there, like the FloLogic and Flo by Moen which provide water main closure automation integrated into the valve itself.

My question is, if I have to replace the current valve anyway, what do others here use/recommend? I'd prefer something that is interoperable with the eISY so I can make it work with my existing flood sensors. But, I am okay with going a different direction if needs be for reliability. The Zooz is Z-Wave, but I've heard it can be unreliable. I know that both the FloLogic and Moen devices have WiFi capability and connect to their own mobile apps, so I imagine a node server may exist to communicate with them. I don't know much about them otherwise. I imagine there are other devices I am unaware of.

I welcome any advice/suggestions.

Thanks!

Edited November 26, 2023 by Merlin

[beninsteon]

I would recommend against anything that is cloud dependent/connected. Additionally, given the importance of what this is doing, zwave or even wifi are not ideal.

I am using a hard wired motorized valve (eg. https://www.amazon.ca/Motorized-Stainless-Polarity-U-S-Solid/dp/B06XWG6ZLS) controlled via a Global Cache GC-100 (IP2CC would work also https://www.amazon.ca/Global-Caché-Ip2Cc-P-Contact-Closure/dp/B002ZV8FVI), connected to my network via Ethernet. 

Using programs/network resources in ISY to trigger valve closure when water detected where it shouldn't be.

[jec6613]

I recommend against getting a, "Smart," valve.  Residential water shutoff ball valves have lifespans of over a century, and fully automated ones will require replacement every 10 years or so once they go out of support, Ethernet or not.  If you do choose to install one, you should either install a bypass around it using traditional valves, so that a plumber can replace it without having to call for the water to be shut off at your buffalo box, or just install it after a main manual shut off for the same reason.

FWIW, I went with the Zooz, and since I'm on a well I also kill power to the well pump at the same time, keeping any damage pretty limited even if the Zooz fails.

Edited November 26, 2023 by jec6613

[tlightne]

I am using the same motorized valve that @beninsteon is using with an Insteon I/O link.

[Jimbo.Automates]

I asked the same a while back, and decided to stay with the Zooz Titan that I already have but appreciated all the input from everyone.

 

[beninsteon]

11 hours ago, tlightne said:

Insteon I/O link.

You should *never* use an I/O link for critical applications (like controlling your main water supply). They are subject to the "Insteon/ISY All On" bug and can be triggered without cause.

I replaced all my I/O lincs relays with Global Cache Ethernet relays after I came home a few years ago and found my garage door open and gas fireplace had been turned on. I still use I/O lincs as Insteon sensors.

Edited November 26, 2023 by beninsteon

[tlightne]

@beninsteon Have been using for 5 years now and have no had any issues... Besides when the link is energized it shuts my water off. So worst case I do a manual over ride..

[dbuss]

I appreciate this information. I've been using a Z-Wave controlled WaterCop and it has worked well for me. However, WaterCop stopped producing them so, I know at some point, I will need to replace it with something else.

[beninsteon]

43 minutes ago, tlightne said:

Have been using for 5 years now and have no had any issues

That's what I thought for the first 5 years or so before I had my first All On experience. Then it happened, and I learned 😃

B

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, beninsteon said:

That's what I thought for the first 5 years or so before I had my first All On experience. Then it happened, and I learned 😃

B

That would be a double contingency and not likely to ever be a problem unless having no water pressure could cause a problem.

Having said that, closing the valve at each end of any water system/vessel can cause problems with built up pressure that has no place to go except to burst something in the system.

I also suspect that with the ISY disappearing out of the formula the All-on problem has disappeared. It has been noted, in the past, that no other Insteon controlled systems ever reported this problem. I am not sure if that was true or not.

[beninsteon]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

that no other Insteon controlled systems ever reported this problem.

has it not been noted with eISY as well?

[Merlin]

20 hours ago, beninsteon said:

I would recommend against anything that is cloud dependent/connected. Additionally, given the importance of what this is doing, zwave or even wifi are not ideal.

I am using a hard wired motorized valve (eg. https://www.amazon.ca/Motorized-Stainless-Polarity-U-S-Solid/dp/B06XWG6ZLS) controlled via a Global Cache GC-100 (IP2CC would work also https://www.amazon.ca/Global-Caché-Ip2Cc-P-Contact-Closure/dp/B002ZV8FVI), connected to my network via Ethernet. 

Using programs/network resources in ISY to trigger valve closure when water detected where it shouldn't be.

 

 

 

 

Well, I am currently using an Insteon 2852-222 Leak Sensor, which is wireless. I plan to pick up some more leak sensors, but with the Insteon model discontinued, I will likely get the Aeotec or Zooz Z-Wave leak sensor for the other locations I want to monitor. So, that is always going to be a potential issue.

After reading all the horror stories about using in-line "smart" valves (like the Moen Flo) I am leaning away from getting an in-line valve and just installing a traditional ball valve with an external valve controller, like the Zooz Titan to make it easy to remove/replace if it fails down the road.

That said, my home uses hydronic heat, with each zone operated via 24V Taco Zone Sentry valves. So, I would be more comfortable using one of those for the water main as well. I know they work well and are designed to last for years. I'd just need to find a 24V remote activation module (one that supports ethernet would be nice, though the one you linked is no longer available).

19 hours ago, jec6613 said:

I recommend against getting a, "Smart," valve.  Residential water shutoff ball valves have lifespans of over a century, and fully automated ones will require replacement every 10 years or so once they go out of support, Ethernet or not.  If you do choose to install one, you should either install a bypass around it using traditional valves, so that a plumber can replace it without having to call for the water to be shut off at your buffalo box, or just install it after a main manual shut off for the same reason.

FWIW, I went with the Zooz, and since I'm on a well I also kill power to the well pump at the same time, keeping any damage pretty limited even if the Zooz fails.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, after reading all the horror stories in the reviews of other "smart" valves, I have come to the same conclusion. But yes, if I were to get one, I'd add it before/after a manual shutoff in case of failure. I am considering the Zooz for ease of operation and replacement though. What are your thoughts on the Titan?

17 hours ago, Jimbo.Automates said:

I asked the same a while back, and decided to stay with the Zooz Titan that I already have but appreciated all the input from everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! I'll take a look. What are your thoughts on the Zooz Titan?

I'm still weighing my options, but I really appreciate the feedback folks!

[Jimbo.Automates]

Thanks! I'll take a look. What are your thoughts on the Zooz Titan?
I'm still weighing my options, but I really appreciate the feedback folks!

I like the Zooz, I also have Aeotec but Zooz seems better.

Also,.FYI the Insteon leak sensors are still available and were on sale, I bought a couple more yesterday.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Merlin]

2 hours ago, Jimbo.Automates said:

I like the Zooz, I also have Aeotec but Zooz seems better.

Also,.FYI the Insteon leak sensors are still available and were on sale, I bought a couple more yesterday.

 

 

I didn't even know Aeotec had a ball valve actuator. I'll need to look at that one too.

As for the Insteon Leak Sensor, you're right... I see it on the Insteon site now. It wasn't there when I last looked (granted, that was a few months back) so that is handy to know. I may pick some up given the current sale going on.

Though I'd also like to find a moisture/leak sensor with a wire lead that I can route into places where a flat/floor sensor, like the Insteon, wouldn't work.

Thanks!

[bgrubb1]

I dumped the inseon leak detectors and went with Yolink   much more reliable, report battery low and last forever

[Merlin]

6 hours ago, bgrubb1 said:

I dumped the inseon leak detectors and went with Yolink   much more reliable, report battery low and last forever

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, I don't have any experience with YoLink. I've found the Aeotec and Zooz stuff seems to work pretty well, so they are my go-to for Z-Wave stuff, but I'm happy to take a look at other brands.

Looking at the YoLink water leak sensor, it looks like it requires its own hub and isn't Z-Wave compatible. Is there a node server for them or something? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong device?

I see that YoLink also has a smart water valve controller that adapts to the existing ball valve by replacing the handle with a motor. But again, requires a YoLink hub to use.

That said, I did just order another Insteon leak sensor since it was like 35% off. The one I have now has been working fine for years. Though I've heard others saying they stop working after 3 years or so. But you're right, it would be nice to get a battery level report.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Merlin

[DennisC]

10 hours ago, bgrubb1 said:

I dumped the inseon leak detectors and went with Yolink   much more reliable, report battery low and last forever

And they have a full line of complete water isolation valves, as well as add on devices to control existing valves.

I have been very impressed with Yolink. They are very responsive and have good range. The only negative is it is cloud based.

With the help of the YoLink plugin, I started replacing my CAO Wireless Tags that monitor T&H around the house with Yolink devices, which even have a display on them.

All of their devices have a better price point then other vendors. I believe today is the last day of their sale. I found that with the discount coupon the pricing on their website was better than Amazon.

[Ross]

The Yolink devices have worked really well for me (I only have wired and wireless temperature sensors so far).  I had nothing but trouble with the CAO Wireless tags.  They would stop reporting and I'd have to go and remove/install the battery to get them working again.

[Merlin]

I'd be happy to try out the YoLink stuff. I took a look online and found a bunch of really professional looking devices, but if they are not interoperable with the eISY, I am not sure what the point is. I don't want to deal with multiple independent systems. I already have water sensors and other automation devices I'd want to be able to use with whatever I end up with for water flow monitoring and/or water main shutoff.

[DennisC]

19 minutes ago, Merlin said:

but if they are not interoperable with the eISY

Not sure what you mean by this? Are you looking for more than the Node Server / Plugin can do?

[Merlin]

18 minutes ago, DennisC said:

Not sure what you mean by this? Are you looking for more than the Node Server / Plugin can do?

 

Sorry, I only recently upgraded to the eISY from the ISY994 and am not really completely up to speed on the node server stuff aside from an understanding that it exists and allows the eiSY to communicate with non-natively supported devices. I asked earlier if there was a node server for YoLink to allow it to be used with the eISY but I didn't see any responses, so that is why I was asking for clarification.

My assumption is that the node server allows the eiSY to speak to the YoLink devices as if it were a YoLink hub and that it otherwise operates as if it were a native Insteon or Z-Link/Zigbee device from the perspective of the eiSY, yes? Given that, it sounds like it would be worth getting a device or two to try them out. Though I suppose the next question is how do we add/remove YoLink devices if we are not using one of the native protocols? I'll need to check the wiki to see what I can find there.

[Javi]

18 minutes ago, Merlin said:

Sorry, I only recently upgraded to the eISY from the ISY994 and am not really completely up to speed on the node server stuff aside from an understanding that it exists and allows the eiSY to communicate with non-natively supported devices. I asked earlier if there was a node server for YoLink to allow it to be used with the eISY but I didn't see any responses, so that is why I was asking for clarification.

My assumption is that the node server allows the eiSY to speak to the YoLink devices as if it were a YoLink hub and that it otherwise operates as if it were a native Insteon or Z-Link/Zigbee device from the perspective of the eiSY, yes? Given that, it sounds like it would be worth getting a device or two to try them out. Though I suppose the next question is how do we add/remove YoLink devices if we are not using one of the native protocols? I'll need to check the wiki to see what I can find there.

Hi @Merlin,   

Thanks for starting this topic! I'm having my main water line replaced in the next few weeks which requires opening a wall so I will be adding a motorized main valve at the same time.  I had WaterCop in my Amazon cart for years,  but it appears it is no longer being produced.  I was not impressed with the other Z-Wave options as they blocked or had no manual controls and/or used the pipe for leverage.  Many of the other non-Z-Wave options may contain lead, so they are a no go and the reason the line is being replaced. 

I just purchased the YoLink Meter and Valve combo and hub at a 20% discount on their site.  While I was only looking for a valve the meter will allow me to eliminate Flume and their expensive proprietary batteries....not to mention the meter being moved outside and I'm not sure if the new meter is supported by flume.

The YoLink Hub is still required but it is very inexpensive ~$20. 

If you are using UD Mobile Notifications then you are already using a Node Server.  

 

[Javi]

9 hours ago, Ross said:

The Yolink devices have worked really well for me (I only have wired and wireless temperature sensors so far).  I had nothing but trouble with the CAO Wireless tags.  They would stop reporting and I'd have to go and remove/install the battery to get them working again.

I stopped using CAO Tags for the same reason,  do the YoLink Devices work inside a fridge?

[Merlin]

16 minutes ago, Javi said:

The YoLink Hub is still required but it is very inexpensive ~$20. 

If you are using UD Mobile Notifications then you are already using a Node Server. 

 

So using YoLink still requires a YoLink Hub in addition to the eISY node server for YoLink? The price is less of an issue than where I'd put the thing. But, I assume that means that one can use the YoLink app in addition to the eISY to connect to the YoLink stuff. But it also sounds like it won't work if the internet is down since it requires cloud access.

I have UD Mobile installed on my phone and I have tested that it works, but I don't have any notifications set up. When I go into the IoX admin portal, under Node Servers -> Configure, all 100 entries say "Empty," so I assume I don't have anything configured.

I have been looking at the Wiki to try and figure out how to use Node servers, and like most of the wiki, it isn't very straightforward. I know PG3 is used for node servers and there is also an Occupancy node server, but I don't see what the difference is, or how to set things up on the eiSY. I see some examples for the ISY994, but I am sure that is dated.

I have some Kasa EP25 smart plugs that I had from my old house, that I really only use for one-offs like controlling xmas tree lights. I currently use the Kasa app and/or Apple Home to control them, but I'd like to add them to the eISY as a node server test as I am told there is a Kasa node server.

[DennisC]

15 hours ago, Merlin said:

My assumption is that the node server allows the eiSY to speak to the YoLink devices as if it were a YoLink hub and that it otherwise operates as if it were a native Insteon or Z-Link/Zigbee device from the perspective of the eiSY, yes?

The YoLink plugin allows the sensor to be used in programs and notifications, just like Insteon devices.

15 hours ago, Merlin said:

Though I suppose the next question is how do we add/remove YoLink devices if we are not using one of the native protocols?

Once the plugin is connected to YoLink, all that needs to be done is add the device to the hub, then restart the plugin.