gregkinney Posted February 28 Posted February 28 All of the sudden I'm getting "Cannot Communicate With..." on two on/off modules. Plus one dimmer switch in my wall is not turning on or off with the scene and program. I replaced the dimmer switch with a new one and the behavior did not change. Hundreds of Insteon devices with my Polisy. Had it for 6-7 years, no recent changes. Any thoughts?
paulbates Posted February 28 Posted February 28 How old is the plm? If it's 6 to 7 years, it was built during the time they were still using crapacitors, and it's likely dieing. Open tools, and look at the plm diagnostics. Also compare the links tables, they should not be a small number or 0 with that many devices. I believe the newer PLMs have better capacitors
Techman Posted February 28 Posted February 28 In addition to what @paulbates suggested, have you recently added any new electronic devices to your home, as some devices can create noise on the powerline which can intefere with the Insteon signals.
gregkinney Posted February 28 Author Posted February 28 @paulbates and @Techman thanks for the help. I can't think of any new electronics I have added. The PLM is 6+ years old so I'm hoping it's as easy as replacing that. I have ordered a new one from Insteon so I'll get that replaced and fingers crossed it fixes the issue.
Techman Posted February 28 Posted February 28 Here's the guidlines for replacing the PLM. It was written for the ISY994 but is basically the same for the Polisy and EISY Replace PLM.pdf 2
IndyMike Posted February 29 Posted February 29 On 2/28/2024 at 9:48 AM, gregkinney said: All of the sudden I'm getting "Cannot Communicate With..." on two on/off modules. Plus one dimmer switch in my wall is not turning on or off with the scene and program. I replaced the dimmer switch with a new one and the behavior did not change. Hundreds of Insteon devices with my Polisy. Had it for 6-7 years, no recent changes. Any thoughts? If you have "hundreds" of devices that function and 3 the do not, it's probably not the PLM. Try moving one of your on/off modules to the same outlet as the PLM. Assuming that works, start looking for signal absorbers or coupling problems on your problematic circuit. You can also try running a 4-tap test on your PLM. If your devices support the test, and can hear the plm, they will flash green or red. 1
Brian H Posted February 29 Posted February 29 Are the effected ones new enough to be Dual Band? The original power line only modules will not respond to a 4 tap or communications test. I too think you may have a new noise source or signal sucker. If only a few or many do not follow commands.
gregkinney Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 Everything in my home is dual band. I'm racking my brain for any new sources of noise. I've never had issues with signal so I've never had to explore this path before so I'm not exactly sure what the offending devices are. I'm assuming UPS, appliances, motors. I replaced my AirTV with an HDHomeRun recently. These devices takes local channels from an antenna and streams them through the house via the Internet. But it's not new - I just replaced one box with a different brand that does the same thing. My wife added some grow lights in the garage for her Spring plants, but they are just 110v LED shop lights, nothing special. I can understand the two on/off modules acting up as they are plugged into an extension cord, but it's the hard wired Insteon 2477d wall dimmer that's really throwing me. That has been there for 8 years without one single issue. And even then, I replaced it and had the same issues with the new (used) wall dimmer. With all of that said, I've had zero problems the last 72 hours. It's been problems every day for 10 days, and then no issues for the last 3 days. I'm an overkill guy so I'm still going to replace my PLM. It's about 6 years old and is the one that goes bad so I would rather be proactive than reactive. I guess the next step is to sit and wait and if it keeps happening, start down the noise rabbit hole. Thank all of you for your time.
IndyMike Posted March 1 Posted March 1 1 hour ago, gregkinney said: Everything in my home is dual band. I'm racking my brain for any new sources of noise. I've never had issues with signal so I've never had to explore this path before so I'm not exactly sure what the offending devices are. I'm assuming UPS, appliances, motors. I replaced my AirTV with an HDHomeRun recently. These devices takes local channels from an antenna and streams them through the house via the Internet. But it's not new - I just replaced one box with a different brand that does the same thing. My wife added some grow lights in the garage for her Spring plants, but they are just 110v LED shop lights, nothing special. I can understand the two on/off modules acting up as they are plugged into an extension cord, but it's the hard wired Insteon 2477d wall dimmer that's really throwing me. That has been there for 8 years without one single issue. And even then, I replaced it and had the same issues with the new (used) wall dimmer. With all of that said, I've had zero problems the last 72 hours. It's been problems every day for 10 days, and then no issues for the last 3 days. I'm an overkill guy so I'm still going to replace my PLM. It's about 6 years old and is the one that goes bad so I would rather be proactive than reactive. I guess the next step is to sit and wait and if it keeps happening, start down the noise rabbit hole. Thank all of you for your time. The AirTV and HDHomeRun are different devices with different power supplies. I have used the HDHomeRun and it wasn't problematic for me. The may have changed the power supply. 110V Led shop lights also use power supplies. They would be my main suspect. Since your problem appears intermittent, look for chargers and things that move around or are activated at particular times of day. This doesn't necessarily have to be a new device. I've had multiple solar sensors die on my post lamp. When they nosing over they tend to flood the powerline with noise. I've stopped using them and switched to a bulb with a solar sensor. The 4 tap test in the PLM is still a good troublshooting tool. Tap the button 4 times rapidly and all dual band devices in range will flash red or green. If a device does not flash, it's either old or it can't hear the PLM. Try this with your problem devices when they are working properly to see how it functions. When things stop operating correctly, try it again. The start looking for items on the circuit that could be absorbing the signal or generating noise. 1
gregkinney Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 Ok well then, the plot thickens. I tried the 4 tap test and nothing happened. The PLM made the audible chirping sound once per second, but regarding other Insteon devices: no lights blinked, no lights brightened, no changes. I have probably 12 dual band devices within 20 ft of the PLM, two of which are around 3ft from it.
Techman Posted March 1 Posted March 1 Based on their firmware not all devices respond to the 4 tap test. Try the test from other, and newer, dual band devices.
gregkinney Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 (edited) I might not completely understand the 4 tap test so I did it two ways, hopefully someone can teach me. I did the 4 tap test from an on/off module near the PLM. The on/off module did the chirp per second and I saw a nearby device flashing red, however, the PLM showed no difference. And, in case I misunderstood the exercise, I went to the room with the offending wall dimmer and did the 4 tap test on a nearby lamplinc. The lamplinc chirped and a nearby on/off module flashed red but the offending wall dimmer did nothing. Additionally, I turned the offending wall dimmer on and then off, and after it was turned off, the red light flashed a handful of times and then stopped. Edited March 1 by gregkinney
lilyoyo1 Posted March 1 Posted March 1 I'm with @IndyMikein that it doesn't appear to be a plm issue. If it were the plm, you'd be having widespread issues. The beacon test is worthless as well. With hundreds of devices, your whole house is pretty much covered so it's pointless. I'd take the problem modules and manually link them together to see if they work (with whatever is plugged into them unplugged) when physically controlled. If they don't work then you have bad modules. If they do work, then plug your devices in and see if they still talk to each other. Once done, you can either factory reset them and then restore each from your isy or follow the unlinking procedure found in the manual.
Techman Posted March 1 Posted March 1 3 minutes ago, gregkinney said: I might not completely understand the 4 tap test so I did it two ways, hopefully someone can teach me. I did the 4 tap test from an on/off module near the PLM. The on/off module did the chirp per second and I saw a nearby device flashing red, however, the PLM showed no difference. And, in case I misunderstood the exercise, I went to the room with the offending wall dimmer and did the 4 tap test on a nearby lamplinc. The lamplinc chirped and a nearby on/off module flashed red but the offending wall dimmer did nothing. Additionally, I turned the offending wall dimmer on and then off, and after it was turned off, the red light flashed a handful of times. If the device is flashing red then the powerline is not properly bridged. Take a look at the attached file 4 Tap test.pdf
IndyMike Posted March 1 Posted March 1 3 hours ago, Techman said: If the device is flashing red then the powerline is not properly bridged. Take a look at the attached file 4 Tap test.pdf 830.19 kB · 2 downloads @Techman - the document you linked is for the range extenders and it is dealing with "bridging" the phases. In that context it's rather misleading. A Red flashing LED indicates the receiving device is on the SAME PHASE as the transmitter. A Green flashing LED indicates the receiving device is on the OPPOSITE PHASE. It's a bit more clear in the On/Off Module Manual: Phase Bridge Detect Beacon/RF Range Test On/Off Outdoor Module automatically bridges the electrical phases in your home (via communications with other dual-band devices on the “other phase”). This is only important in 2-phase homes with powerline-only INSTEON products or buildings with both 2- and 3- phase circuits. The phase bridge detect beacon can also be used as an RF range test to see if your devices are within communication range. You will need at least one other INSTEON dual-band device installed. 1) Quickly tap Set button four times On/Off Outdoor Module will start beeping once per second LED will turn solid green 2) Check the LED behavior of other dual-band devices Phase Bridge Detect Beacon • If the other dual-band device is blinking green, it is on the other phase: Device provides a phase bridge to Micro module • If the other dual-band device is blinking red, it is on the same phase: Device does not provide a phase bridge to Micro module Relocate if necessary (and practical) • If the other dual-band device is not blinking: Device is not within RF range of Micro module so it does not provide a phase bridge Relocate if necessary (and practical) or add an additional dual-band device RF Range Test • RF range test: if LED is blinking: Device is within RF communication range • RF range test: if LED is not blinking: Device is not within RF communication range Relocate if necessary (and practical) or add an additional dual-band device 3) Tap Set button On/Off Outdoor Module will stop beeping Other device LEDs will stop blinking https://cache.insteon.com/documentation/2634-222-en.pdf
Techman Posted March 1 Posted March 1 @IndyMike The range extender is just an example. Any newer dual band device will suffice. The incoming powerline to a home is divided into two 120v legs. To insure that the insteon mesh signal is able to reach both legs, the legs should be bridged using dual (RF) band devices. A 4 tap test is able to verify that the legs are bridged via the green flashing leds..
IndyMike Posted March 2 Posted March 2 7 hours ago, Techman said: If the device is flashing red then the powerline is not properly bridged. I'm sorry, but the above statement is simply incorrect. In a "perfect home installation" with a PLM and 100 devices - activating the "Beacon Test" on the PLM would cause 50 devices to flash green (opposite phase) and 50 devices to flash red (same phase). Red flashing does not imply improper bridging. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted March 2 Posted March 2 (edited) 19 hours ago, Techman said: If the device is flashing red then the powerline is not properly bridged. Take a look at the attached file 4 Tap test.pdf 830.19 kB · 6 downloads As others have stated this is incorrect information. Reality is, with 100+ devices in his home, it would be next to impossible for the phases not to be bridged. He would have to purposely set up his devices in such a way to make that happen. Besides, everything works except 3 devices. That's at least 97 other devices (by his numbers). It can be assumed by shear numbers that they are on both phases so everything is phased. Edited March 2 by lilyoyo1
gregkinney Posted March 2 Author Posted March 2 I experienced other issues last night. I would turn off a scene in a room and 5 of the 6 lights would turn off and one would stay on. The status of that light would say "off" but the light would be on. It's all very intermittent. I'm going to unplug the HDHomeRun and the new LED grow lights and do some testing today. Also the new PLM should be here next week. Again, I'm replacing that to be proactive, I understand it's likely a noise issue. Regarding the blinking red light on the original suspect wall dimmer: it would blink red a handful of times when I turned it on or off by hand - nothing to do with the 4 tap test. Also very intermittent. Sometimes it would blink red and sometimes it would not blink red. I found this post where @Brian H says that the blinking red light means a communication error, likely to noise. That seems to be the consensus here so that's where I'm going to start.
IndyMike Posted March 2 Posted March 2 50 minutes ago, gregkinney said: Regarding the blinking red light on the original suspect wall dimmer: it would blink red a handful of times when I turned it on or off by hand - nothing to do with the 4 tap test. Also very intermittent. Sometimes it would blink red and sometimes it would not blink red. I found this post If your switch is the controller of a Scene - the flashing red is indicating that it can't communicate with one (or more) of the scene members. If your switch is NOT a scene controller - the flashing red indicates that it can't communicate with the PLM. If you were to say "isn't the dual band Insteon feature supposed to eliminate this?", you would be absolutely correct. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect. There are situations where noise/signal absorption will prevent a device from hearing both powerline/rf. Looking into the HdHomeRun and Garage LED's are both solid ideas as you know that these have changed. Don't discount the possibility that you have a device that's on it's last legs (failing EMI capacitor, failing triac, etc) that is causing this (#2 on the list to check). If all else fails you'll need to identify which circuits (breaker panel) are being affected and what devices are installed - the old process of elimination. Best of luck - let us know how your experiments go.
Techman Posted March 2 Posted March 2 4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: As others have stated this is incorrect information. Reality is, with 100+ devices in his home, it would be next to impossible for the phases not to be bridged. He would have to purposely set up his devices in such a way to make that happen. Besides, everything works except 3 devices. That's at least 97 other devices (by his numbers). It can be assumed by shear numbers that they are on both phases so everything is phased. I guess I should have been clearer in my explanation. Agreed that devices on the same leg will blink red but in order to properly couple the powerline legs you also need devices that blink green. I was also taking into consideration that some of the older Insteon PLMs and older Insteon devices were single band which wouldn't provide the RF coupling.
Brian H Posted March 3 Posted March 3 If you are not in the 4Tap-Beacon-Communications test and your module has the blink LED on traffic and it is enabled. Noise can flash the LED. I have also seen some mention that noise can occasionally fool the polite feature in a module and it waits to send until it thinks it is clear.
gregkinney Posted March 7 Author Posted March 7 Currently investigating into the potential noise issue. Is it likely something that's on the same circuit as the offending Insteon device? Or could the noise be coming from a different circuit breaker?
IndyMike Posted March 8 Posted March 8 18 hours ago, gregkinney said: Currently investigating into the potential noise issue. Is it likely something that's on the same circuit as the offending Insteon device? Or could the noise be coming from a different circuit breaker? Since you are having very isolated problems (3 devices out of 100's) it is likely that the noise/signal absorber is on the same circuit. If you can determine which circuit(s) are having issues, begin removing loads (chargers, UPS, TV's) until the problem cleans. If you are looking at circuits in your breaker panel - remember that the phases are the same horizontal and alternate as you go down the panel vertically. Typical Panel Layout 1
gregkinney Posted March 16 Author Posted March 16 Just wanted to report back that I finally received my Powerline Noise Filter and I have fixed the issue. First, I misunderstood how UPS's contribute to noise. I thought that noise was created only if the Insteon device was plugged into a UPS, not simply having a UPS on the circuit. This circuit does have a UPS. Strangely, that wasn't it. It was a PC. For anyone reading, this PC has been plugged in for years with no changes. As @Michel Kohanim said in a similar forum post, "I used to be able to run 5 miles a day and do 15 pull ups. As I aged, things rapidly deteriorated. The same is true for electronics especially power related, but with one difference: they start creating noise. So, please never ever count on 'things used to work for n years'." Thanks everyone for your help. 1 1
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