Newbie Setup Help For Existing Insteon/X10

[scholarwarrior]

I have a setup with multiple insteon and x10 switches installed and working, along with an x10 WM100 wifi hub. 

I wanted more automation and was directed at EISY by Insteon.  I have IoX 5.8.4 and a Insteon PLM.  The PLM shows "71.1C.1 v9E / Connected"

When i try Link Mgt / Start Linking it goes into a scan mode but detects nothing and nothing changes.  This is true whether or not I press the set button on any of the Insteon switches.  Most of my insteon devices are circa 2004, but I have a newer 2477s insteon switch and it is not recognized either.

So how do I add the insteon devices to the EISY and how do I add X10 devices? Help!

[Techman]

Insteon was launched in 2005, are you sure about the date of your insteon devices. If they're older devices then they're powerline only and don't have the dual band technology (powerline and RF)

What is the date code and model number of your PLM, The information is on the PLM sticker

You mention that your eisy firmware is 5.84, what is your UI version. You can find that by clicking on Help | About on the admin console.

I think you should forget about X10. It's an outdated technology. Insteon is far superior.

Prior to moving over to the EISY what were you using to control your Insteon devices.

[Guy Lavoie]

Have you tried manually entering the device address? Under "Link Management", click on "New INSTEON/A10/X10 Device" and enter the device address. Try this first with a 2477S or other dual band device. Also, where is your PLM plugged in? Have your existing Insteon devices worked there before?

[scholarwarrior]

35 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Have you tried manually entering the device address? Under "Link Management", click on "New INSTEON/A10/X10 Device" and enter the device address. Try this first with a 2477S or other dual band device. Also, where is your PLM plugged in? Have your existing Insteon devices worked there before?

I don't know how to "address" the X10 devices?  What do I enter as an address?  For the insteon I don't know the insteon address of the devices and they're installed.  I don't want to remove and replace all.

[scholarwarrior]

13 hours ago, Techman said:

Insteon was launched in 2005, are you sure about the date of your insteon devices. If they're older devices then they're powerline only and don't have the dual band technology (powerline and RF)

What is the date code and model number of your PLM, The information is on the PLM sticker

You mention that your eisy firmware is 5.84, what is your UI version. You can find that by clicking on Help | About on the admin console.

I think you should forget about X10. It's an outdated technology. Insteon is far superior.

Prior to moving over to the EISY what were you using to control your Insteon devices.

I purchased the PLM from Insteon this week.  I can get the date code if it's really necessary.

The other switches might not be insteon.  They say "Smartlinc SL1181" and have no ID on the outside other than "P/N 82-0244" so could be x-10 only.  I have 17 of these, 6 of them in 3-way configuration, so it would be expensive and time consuming to replace.  Plus I have another 10 old Leviton X10 switches.  So replacement is not really something I want to undertake.

Another issue is that the house has internal plaster walls with metal mesh behind and so each room is a Faraday cage and I'm concerned that wireless won't propagate, even in the low frequency ranges of Insteon.  So I'd be reluctant to replace with anything that doesn't have a powerline component.

 

[Techman]

@scholarwarrior'

Apparently all your devices use the X10 protocol and are not Insteon compatible. Being that you don't want to replace them with Insteon devices then this is probably not the correct forum, as this is site supports Insteon, Z-wave, Zigbee, and Matter protocols. The current, and ony, controller offered by Universal Devices is the EISY.  You should probably return the Insteon PLM unless you've already purchased an EISY.

UD Store - Universal Devices

I think the EISY is more than you need if you're staying with X10

All of the X10 devices and controllers can be found at this link.

X10 PRO – X10.COM

Edited November 17 by Techman

[paulbates]

1 hour ago, scholarwarrior said:

I don't know how to "address" the X10 devices?  What do I enter as an address?  For the insteon I don't know the insteon address of the devices and they're installed.  I don't want to remove and replace all.

For X10, enter the house code and unit code, eg C14. For Insteon, use the "Start Linking" option under the linking menu, and then press the set button. Do it order, or even one at a time if all over the house to keep it straight... or have a helper with a smartphone or walkie talkie to help keep it straight

[scholarwarrior]

1 minute ago, Techman said:

@scholarwarrior'

Apparently all your devices use the X10 protocol and are not Insteon compatible. Being that you don't want to replace them with Insteon devices then this is probably not the correct forum, as this is site supports Insteon, Z-wave, Zigbee, and Matter protocols. The current, and ony, controller offered by Universal Devices is the EISY.  You should probably return the Insteon PLM unless you've already purchased an EISY.

UD Store - Universal Devices

I think the EISY is more than you need if you're staying with X10

All of the X10 devices and controllers can be found at this link.

X10 PRO – X10.COM

I do have some insteon 2477s, and I was told by Insteon that the Insteon PLM supports X10 and I was told by UD that EISY supports X10. But thanks.

[Techman]

What model PLM did you purchase from Insteon. What controller do you have?

The X10 protocol is supported by the PLM and EISY. Being that you have some Insteon switches, then you've come to the right place.

[scholarwarrior]

7 minutes ago, paulbates said:

For X10, enter the house code and unit code, eg C14. For Insteon, use the "Start Linking" option under the linking menu, and then press the set button. Do it order, or even one at a time if all over the house to keep it straight... or have a helper with a smartphone or walkie talkie to help keep it straight

Oh, ok, thanks on the X10, I'll try that.  Setting aside the Smartlinc 1181 (whatever that is), I tried the "start linking" with the insteon 2477S and I pressed the "set" button as you say, but nothing showed up.  I'll try again to be sure.

 

[scholarwarrior]

5 minutes ago, Techman said:

What model PLM did you purchase from Insteon. What controller do you have?

The X10 protocol is supported by the PLM and EISY. Being that you have some Insteon switches, then you've come to the right place.

👍 I have the Insteon USB PLM 2413U

 

[paulbates]

5 minutes ago, scholarwarrior said:

Oh, ok, thanks on the X10, I'll try that.  Setting aside the Smartlinc 1181 (whatever that is), I tried the "start linking" with the insteon 2477S and I pressed the "set" button as you say, but nothing showed up.  I'll try again to be sure.

 

It's probably worth a factory reset it. Press the set button in and hold it till it beeps. Then go back and put the eisy in linking mode, and the go tap the set button quickly till it beeps.

[Techman]

Do you have an EISY controller. The PLM you have is compatible with the EISY.

To link an Insteon device to the EISY you should enter its address xx.xx.xx in the Link Management tab.

 

Edited November 17 by Techman

[scholarwarrior]

I'll try resetting, but the EISY says "connected."

[larryllix]

17 minutes ago, scholarwarrior said:

I'll try resetting, but the EISY says "connected."

Paul is referring to the Insteon device, not the PLM. Every Insteon device should be factory reset before connecting to the EISY via PLM. It avoids a lot of troubles later on.

After factory resetting an Insteon device you can use "Restore" to refresh all the links already set up in EISY or if not installed yet, install it as new.

Right click on the device in the device tree to see options.

Edited November 17 by larryllix

[Guy Lavoie]

The 1181 is definitely not Insteon. It is one of Smarthome's very first X10 compatible switches. Then came the 2384, etc. Then came Insteon.

 

On the 2477S, you should see a label with an address formatted such as  47.F2.E0  That's the device address, and what you should try entering when adding a Insteon device manually (though "Start Linking" should also work). But just start with that. The fact that the admin console says the PLM is connected is already a good start.

Edited November 17 by Guy Lavoie

[oberkc]

Clarification: As far as I know, X-10 capability is still fully resident in the EISY.  The basic EISY software does not pre-populate X-10 devices.  No linking is needed nor possible and X-10 devices would not be part of your device list.  X-10 devices were not part of scenes and one could not create X-10 scenes.  X-10 addresses were (and still are) simply used in programs.  One could, for example, create a program such as (syntax not exact):

if Sunset

then send A1 on

At one point, and even possibly still, one could purchase (small fee) an update to the EISY software which would allow one to give names to specific X-10 addresses and have those names show up in the device list and be used by programs.  It made creating the programs a bit more intuitive and made managing your system a little easier, but did not really add anything to the core capability.  

 

Edited November 18 by oberkc

[scholarwarrior]

18 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

The 1181 is definitely not Insteon. It is one of Smarthome's very first X10 compatible switches. Then came the 2384, etc. Then came Insteon.

 

On the 2477S, you should see a label with an address formatted such as  47.F2.E0  That's the device address, and what you should try entering when adding a Insteon device manually (though "Start Linking" should also work). But just start with that. The fact that the admin console says the PLM is connected is already a good start.

That makes sense.

I tried resetting the 2477S and linking automatically, but it still didn't show up.  Do insteon device respond via powerline or only via wireless?  I'm thinking that it's likely that my 2477S are out of wireless range of the USB PLM...

[oberkc]

5 minutes ago, scholarwarrior said:

Do insteon device respond via powerline or only via wireless?

Theoretically, both, but this depends on whether your Insteon devices include power line, wireless, or both.  If you only have power line devices, it is possible that you may be having communication problems between the legs of your electrical system.  Do you have any phase couplers from your X-10 system?

[scholarwarrior]

21 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Theoretically, both, but this depends on whether your Insteon devices include power line, wireless, or both.  If you only have power line devices, it is possible that you may be having communication problems between the legs of your electrical system.  Do you have any phase couplers from your X-10 system?

I don't have phase couplers, but I was thinking of adding one.  Not sure how to go about doing this.  Do you think a phase coupler would help or hurt?

Also, my understanding is that the 2477S includes powerline, but this may only include X10 and not other Insteon communications over powerline.

Edited November 18 by scholarwarrior

[lilyoyo1]

17 minutes ago, scholarwarrior said:

I don't have phase couplers, but I was thinking of adding one.  Not sure how to go about doing this.  Do you think a phase coupler would help or hurt?

Also, my understanding is that the 2477S includes powerline, but this may only include X10 and not other Insteon communications over powerline.

Insteon dual band devices utilize both powerline and RF at the same time for insteon communication. Because the powerline signal moves faster than the RF signal, technically thats the primary form of communication. 

For x10 mode, the x10 command is sent over powerline only. If its communicating using both Insteon and x10, the insteon commands are always sent before the x10 command.

Edited November 18 by lilyoyo1

[Guy Lavoie]

41 minutes ago, scholarwarrior said:

I don't have phase couplers, but I was thinking of adding one.  Not sure how to go about doing this.  Do you think a phase coupler would help or hurt?

Also, my understanding is that the 2477S includes powerline, but this may only include X10 and not other Insteon communications over powerline.

The easiest (and cheapest) way to couple powerline phases for Insteon is probably by installing a dual band lamplinc module on each phase of your breaker panel, and in somewhat close proximity to each other (ideally in the same room). They're plug in modules, so easy to move around. However if you have lots of other dual band devices, such as wall switches, then this will often be sufficient too. A setup with just a few devices is less reliable than one with many, as is the case with other mesh network topologies.

Yes, the 2477S is dual band (has both powerline and rf communications). The dual band technology is a big part of Insteon's reliability. If the only Insteon device(s) you have are wall switches, then trying things like moving it closer to the PLM will be difficult. Tell us what you have exactly, and how they're laid out.

I have a mid size setup (about 35 to 40 Insteon devices) and is a mix of dual band and powerline only devices (I bought several lots of used devices). I'd say about 2/3rds of them are dual band. I consciously set them up to have dual band switches in at least every part of the house. Some devices are also rf only, such as the battery powered Triggerlinc magentic door detectors, mini remotes, and the thermostats.

[Brian H]

Insteon dual band devices also have a built in communications test you can use. Some manuals call it the 4 tap test, some the beacon test and some have a flow chart to follow to enable the test.

The dual band modules and their range extenders [dual band 2477D2 Lamplinc with the dimmer parts left out]. Do not couple or pass on X10 messages. Many of the passive X10 couplers will also couple Insteon power line messages. Some of the active X10 coupler repeaters can see the end of an Insteon power line massage as a bogus X10 message and try and repeat the command. I have a XTB-IIR that knows enough to not false on Insteon. So in my case I have a mixture of X10 and Insteon devices.

Edited November 18 by Brian H

[larryllix]

The X10 devices will still require a phase coupler to get signals across the legs of a 120/240 v grid system.

I ran a dual system fr a few years but found that some Wait 1-2 seconds were required to allow some signals to dissipate their ACKs before sending the other protocol. I am not sure whether it was after Insteon signals or after X10 signals, now.

Although Insteon has anti-clash detection for it's own signals included, the two did not play together all that well on the same PLM. They can co-reside OK but some Waits had to be inserted to stop clashing in certain places.

[paulbates]

7 hours ago, scholarwarrior said:

don't have phase couplers, but I was thinking of adding one.  Not sure how to go about doing this.  Do you think a phase coupler would help or hurt?

I have had great experience with couplers. I had a signallinc from Insteon at my last house.

Now that they don't make them any longer, I built my own from parts I found on mouser from a recommendation from Insteon for my new house . The parts were like $15 delivered. They have to go into your electric panel, so you have to be comfortable with that or find an electrician to do it for you.'

If you're interested I can dig up the order from mouser