Add Hue bulbs directly to the eisy, partial success.

[greensha]

I would love to convert my old incandescent lamps to LED lamps, specifically Hue (because that's what I have a few of).  I have exclusively Hue bulbs in my basement (set up as a bar and TV room) and they are currently recognized by the eisy via the Hue plugin. However, these lights are manually controlled as and when needed.

We are renovating the kitchen on the main floor of the house and currently all the bulbs on that floor are incandescent and control via Insteon switches and plug-in modules.  These lights are also on a series of timers that turn the lights on in the evening and then gradually dim as it gets later in the evening.  

As a test, I've tried replacing a couple with Hue bulbs linked directly to the eisy and while they work ok on the scheduled timers, I have difficulty controlling them manually if needed.  I can set a ramp rate for each Hue bulb, but that only works when they are turned on.  The ramp rate is instant when they are turned off.  However, I can toggle them on and off and the off ramp rate works ok then.  If they are controlled by the Hue plugin, the ramp rate works as expected.

The other problem is that if I put then in a scene that is controlled by an Insteon dimmer, I can't get them to fade up or down.  This is the case whether they are linked directly to the eisy or via the Hue plugin.  I have a Zigbee CCT controller that I and going to use for under-counter LED lighting. I can link that directly to the eisy and it works just like another Insteon device when it comes to fading and ramp rates, so I know it can be done.

Am I doing something wrong, or is this something that will be added down the road?

[Guy Lavoie]

Do you mean that you are trying to use Hue bulbs powered through an Insteon dimmer switch? That won't work, and can possibly damage the Hue bulbs. Hue bulbs contain electronics that need constant, full line voltage. Any functions like dimming need to be done by the bulb itself, through Hue commands.

You could use regular LED bulbs, but then again some are dimmable, others aren't. Read the packaging carefully.

Edited February 24 by Guy Lavoie

[greensha]

6 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Do you mean that you are trying to use Hue bulbs powered through an Insteon dimmer switch? That won't work, and can possibly damage the Hue bulbs. Hue bulbs contain electronics that need constant, full line voltage. Any functions like dimming need to be done by the bulb itself, through Hue commands.

You could use regular LED bulbs, but then again some are dimmable, others aren't. Read the packaging carefully.

No, I should have said.  The Hue bulbs have power 100% of the time.  I am using the Insteon dimmers to control them via scenes (or programs if that will work, but so far I've not been as successful with programs).

[Guy Lavoie]

2 minutes ago, greensha said:

The Hue bulbs have power 100% of the time......  I am using the Insteon dimmers to control them

That's contradictory... If you set the Insteon dimmers to anything less than 100%, then the bulbs aren't getting 100% power anymore. Try powering your PC through a dimmer and lower the level to control the screen brightness... You'll just blow the power supply, or dimmer, or both. The Hue bulb is a computer. It needs 100% sine wave AC power to operate properly and do it's thing, which is to receive commands to dim, change colors, etc.

[greensha]

I am using the Insteon dimmers to control them via scenes or programs.  They will not be connected to the Insteon dimmers via the load wire, they will be connected directly to the line wire in the junction box.  The Insteon dimmers will not be controlling the Hue bulbs directly.

[Guy Lavoie]

4 minutes ago, greensha said:

I am using the Insteon dimmers to control them via scenes or programs.  They will not be connected to the Insteon dimmers via the load wire, they will be connected directly to the line wire in the junction box.  The Insteon dimmers will not be controlling the Hue bulbs directly.

Well that's better. It wasn't clear from your description. So you're using programs to detect the Insteon switch status, and then send Hue commands via the plugin?

[greensha]

I've tried using programs to control the Hue lights, specifically trying to get them to fade up and down, but this doesn't work (or at least I've not been able to figure out the correct commands to use).  I've put them in scenes and again, this doesn't work.  I've tried both with the Hue plugin and directly linking them to the eisy.  If the bulbs were linked directly to the eisy, they were first deleted from the plugin so that there was no potential conflict.

[Guy Lavoie]

Fading up and down in real time isn't very likely to work with programs because when you dim an Insteon switch manually, it only sends the new, final dim level when you let go of the paddle. This means you'll be limited to detecting a dim level (more like a range) with one or more programs, and/or detecting fast on/off commands, and then sending equivalent Hue commands. Things like that. 

You'd need to post your program(s), to see what it's trying to do.

[greensha]

That's why I gave up on the programs.  I had originally tried that with the CCT controller but found that putting it in a scene worked very well.  I don't seem to get the same behaviour from the Hue bulbs.

[Guy Lavoie]

Since translating your intentions from an Insteon dimmer to a Hue bulb requires using programs, there is no easy solution. You could try creating a bunch of programs, each one for a range of desired dimming, but you're still stuck without real time control, because of the way Insteon sends the final dim level as previously mentioned.  

[lilyoyo1]

Do you actually use different light levels when you dim or tend to stick to the same settings (IE: dim to 30% each time). If its the latter, you could use the fade command to trigger your program to set the light at that level. Outside of that, you would need to use programs and set the bulb based on the insteon range which will be a poor experience 

[greensha]

17 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Do you actually use different light levels when you dim or tend to stick to the same settings (IE: dim to 30% each time). If its the latter, you could use the fade command to trigger your program to set the light at that level. Outside of that, you would need to use programs and set the bulb based on the insteon range which will be a poor experience 

I don't often use the dimmer feature, but it's important that it works when needed.  I do have some other lights that just transition from one level to another based on a schedule, I can probably use Hue bulbs in those. It just irks me a little that it works so well with the other Zigbee devices that I have and not with the Hue bulbs.  I can't help but think it's a programming issue with IoX rather than a intrinsic limitation of the Hue devices.

[Guy Lavoie]

1 hour ago, greensha said:

 I can't help but think it's a programming issue with IoX rather than a intrinsic limitation of the Hue devices.

It's the fact that you need to use a program at all that's the limiting factor. Dimming is usually a realtime thing that you do manually and intuitively, and doesn't lend itself well to translation. Take someone who speaks English fluently and someone else who speaks French fluently, and now add a translator between the two. The fluency is lost. 

[oberkc]

On 2/24/2025 at 10:37 AM, Guy Lavoie said:

Since translating your intentions from an Insteon dimmer to a Hue bulb requires using programs

I am not sure that I understand this entire thread.  I have Insteon devices as scene controllers and hue bulbs (via PG3 node server) as responders.  They brighten and dim just fine when so commanded by the switch.  Am I missing something?

[Guy Lavoie]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

I am not sure that I understand this entire thread.  I have Insteon devices as scene controllers and hue bulbs (via PG3 node server) as responders.  They brighten and dim just fine when so commanded by the switch.  Am I missing something?

Well how are you doing it? Triggering scenes? That would work. But he wants real time control, manually.

[oberkc]

I have an Insteon device (keypad, in this case) as scene controller, and hub bulb as scene responder.  If I press-and-hold the keypad button, the hue bulb dims/brightens.  No programs.  Nothing but a scene.  Works great for me.

Is this not "real time control, manually"?

[Guy Lavoie]

3 hours ago, oberkc said:

I have an Insteon device (keypad, in this case) as scene controller, and hub bulb as scene responder.  If I press-and-hold the keypad button, the hue bulb dims/brightens.  No programs.  Nothing but a scene.  Works great for me.

Is this not "real time control, manually"?

Well, could you explain how the keypad (a Keypadlinc?) button is configured. We might learn something here.

[oberkc]

I know of nothing unique about the configuration of the keypad button.  It is, in this case, button F of an eight button dimming device.

Perhaps more telling is the configuration of the scene.  I have attached a shot of the scene definition, from the keypad controller viewpoint.  I use an "set xy color" rather than "default" or other action in response to the keypad scene initiation.  I wonder if this makes a difference.  

[IndyMike]

10 hours ago, oberkc said:

I know of nothing unique about the configuration of the keypad button.  It is, in this case, button F of an eight button dimming device.

Perhaps more telling is the configuration of the scene.  I have attached a shot of the scene definition, from the keypad controller viewpoint.  I use an "set xy color" rather than "default" or other action in response to the keypad scene initiation.  I wonder if this makes a difference.  

@oberkc, I'm thinking you are using the PG3 HUE plugin to communicate with a HUE HUB - correct?

It sounds as if @greensha is attempting to connect directly to the HUE bulbs by enrolling them as Zigbee devices.  

[Guy Lavoie]

Interesting, thanks. So a keypadlinc toggle button sends dim commands if you hold it down. I'll experiment with that.

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, IndyMike said:

I'm thinking you are using the PG3 HUE plugin to communicate with a HUE HUB - correct?

Correct.

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

So a keypadlinc toggle button sends dim commands if you hold it down.

 Correct, alternating with bright commands on each successive press-and-hold..  

 

2 hours ago, IndyMike said:

It sounds as if @greensha is attempting to connect directly to the HUE bulbs by enrolling them as Zigbee devices.  

Perhaps that is the difference.  I experimented with direct connection once and went back to the hue hub/PG3.  The direct connection did not, as I recall, have the full set of features.

[greensha]

I did eventually get everything working.  It turned out that the main issue I was having what that the bulb wasn't actually registered in the Hue plugin, but the room that it was in was registered.  I was mistakenly trying to send commands to the room rather than the device.  Once I realized that and was able to add the Hue bulb to the plugin and resynchronize the eisy with the plugin, everything worked as expected.

In short, you can use a keypad (in this case, I'm using an i3 keypad) to dim up and down on alternate press-and-holds just as @oberkc stated.

Enrolling the devices directly as Zigbee devices doesn't work as well as some features are missing.  Most notably the ramp rate when the device is turned off.  Hopefully, this will get fixed at some point.

The meta problem with all this is the significant lack of accessible, accurate, complete and up-to-date documentation.  Sure, it's mostly all there somewhere; but some is in forum posts, like this one.  Sometimes it's buried in a wiki page and on occasion nowhere to be found.

Edited February 27 by greensha

[Guy Lavoie]

That's neat, and I think we all learned a bit more in the process 😀

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, greensha said:

It turned out that the main issue I was having what that the bulb wasn't actually registered in the Hue plugin, but the room that it was in was registered.

Yes, that took me a while to understand that every room, scene, and device created in the hue app shows up as a node in the ISY.  I will delete those for which I have no need to help avoiding some confusion.  I cannot say, however, that I have ever experienced a hue device that shows up in the hue app not register in the plug-in.  I am glad you got it working.

[xlurkr]

On 2/27/2025 at 7:37 AM, oberkc said:

 I will delete those for which I have no need to help avoiding some confusion.

Seems like a lot of people on this board copy them to a folder instead.  I've never done that myself.

-Tom