AccessPoints vs. Hardwired Coupler

[upstatemike]

In preparing for my anticipated ISY-99IR installation, I a want to set up things at my breaker panel but am not sure what the best approach to use would be. My original plan was to use a 3-gang box fed by a 220V breaker to contain 2 duplex receptacles and a phase coupler. I was planning to plug the ISY PLM into one of the receptacles and another Insteon module in the other leg's receptacle, with the idea that the phase coupler right there would give the ISY good communication on both legs.

 

I have since heard that the hardwired phase coupler is not working well for some folks so now I'm thinking Of just putting an Accesspoint in each of the two receptacles (which are wired on opposite legs of the AC line) and skip the hardwired coupler.

 

My questions are:

 

1- Is it possible to place AccessPoints too close together such that there are issues with the RF link?

 

2- Am I wasting hop count by using Accesspoints instead of a hardwired coupler? Don't I burn 1 hop going across the RF link and a second hop repeating the signal on the other leg?

[SteveL]

Mike,

I have placed the Access Points next to each other without a problem.

I like the idea of a hard wire coupler and access points placed in the house.

 

I wouldn't be two concerned about hops. The theory of it is on thing, but the reality is I have done homes with well over three hundred switches and multiple Access Points and everything works greeat.

 

SteveL

[upstatemike]

Thanks Steve. Do you have any experience with using the hard wire coupler in any of your installations? Is it effectiv?

[IndyMike]

 

1- Is it possible to place AccessPoints too close together such that there are issues with the RF link?

 

2- Am I wasting hop count by using Accesspoints instead of a hardwired coupler? Don't I burn 1 hop going across the RF link and a second hop repeating the signal on the other leg?

 

Mike,

 

As I understand things, you do not burn a "hop" with the RF link. Powerline transmissions include a 1/2 cycle of dead space at the end of the communication (both standard and extended messages). The RF "link" devices communicate during this 1/2 cycle and then repeat (synchronously) during the next time slot. Note that for a message to be transmitted on the opposite phase, the "max hops" must be at least 1.

 

Check pages 40 (Message timeslots) and 45 (RF/Powerline synch) of the following link:

Insteon The Details

 

Adding a passive coupler could have the following effects :

• Since the coupler will be synchronous with the original transmitter, you could "gain" 1 message transmission (If a device on the opposite phase can "hear" the coupled message). Essentially, the message would be coupled immediately - you wouldn't require an accesspoint to collect the message and transmit it in the next timeslot.
   
  I am not sure what two closely placed accesspoints (on opposite phases) will do if they "hear" the same powerline message at the same time. I would expect that they would revert to being simple repeaters. Note that this situation occurs any time you turn on a 220V appliance and couple the phases.
  

 

There's some of the theory. In practice, I've had better luck with my PLM at the panel and my signalincs on the second floor (far away).

 

Nonetheless, we should probably pay attention to the people who have done multiple (large) installs - SteveL.

 

If you do try a coupler, please post your results. I can't install one presently as I need an active repeater to keep my X10 system alive.

 

IM

[upstatemike]

 

If you do try a coupler, please post your results. I can't install one presently as I need an active repeater to keep my X10 system alive.

 

IM

 

Is there some reason why you can't have both the active X10 repeater and the passive Insteon coupler hooked up? I just upgraded my X10 repeater to ensure the ISY will hear X10 signals that I will want it to translate into Insteon actions.

[IndyMike]

Is there some reason why you can't have both the active X10 repeater and the passive Insteon coupler hooked up? I just upgraded my X10 repeater to ensure the ISY will hear X10 signals that I will want it to translate into Insteon actions.

 

X10 communications are broadcast twice (the x10 version of redundancy). The first 11 powerline cycles comprise one entire transmission. The second 11 powerline cycles (22 total) are a copy of the original.

 

Repeaters "listen" to the first transmission and then repeat (opposite phase) during the second half.

 

With a passive coupleer installed, a repeater will see the first half of the transmission on both phases. Polite devices (like my Leviton HCA02) will not (I believe) repeat the tranmission since they have "collision avoidance" and will not overwrite an existing communication.

 

In short, I don't know how a repeater will respond with a passive coupler in parallel. It may repeat after an appropriate (3 cycle gap) period of time, or it may go silent. I haven't tested this configuration.

 

Anyone else have experience here?

 

IM

[upstatemike]

That sounds logical. So I guess I need to use accesspoint coupling.

 

New Plan:

 

X10 repeater wired at panel (existing)

 

3-gang box wired with 3 duplex outlets; left fed from one leg and right two fed from the opposite leg.

 

1st outlet has accesslinc. 2nd has ISY PLM. Third has another accesslinc.

 

Would this avoid the issues of a passive coupler?

[Brian H]

I don't have all mine that close; but have a ACT CR134 X10 repeater with an Accesspoint at each end of the home and they play nice together. The CR134 does flash an ERROR LED with some Insteon signals but the transmit LED for passing to the other phase does not light.

 

I did have one real STRANGE thing happen. If I install a ULighting America SDS23 Dimmable CFL; in most any part of my home. An Insteon signal must mix with it generated noise and I get X10 powerline signals of J Status Request or an M13 Address being sent. M and J are not in my settings. I would say this is a rare thing and passed it on only as a point of interest.

[IndyMike]

That sounds logical. So I guess I need to use accesspoint coupling.

 

New Plan:

 

X10 repeater wired at panel (existing)

 

3-gang box wired with 3 duplex outlets; left fed from one leg and right two fed from the opposite leg.

 

1st outlet has accesslinc. 2nd has ISY PLM. Third has another accesslinc.

 

Would this avoid the issues of a passive coupler?

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to talk you out of the passive coupler. I just don't know what effect it will have on your repeater (which make/model do you have?).

 

I would think the passive coupler would aid your Insteon system if the accesspoints were located remote from the panel. I don't know the effect on your X10 system.

 

As Brian mentioned, I do get occasional "error lamp" indications from my Leviton repeater during Insteon transmissions. I haven't been able to correlate this with any "bad" effects.

 

Sorry, this is turning out to be a real "wet napkin" reply.

 

IM

[Algorithm]

I did have one real STRANGE thing happen. If I install a ULighting America SDS23 Dimmable CFL; in most any part of my home. An Insteon signal must mix with it generated noise and I get X10 powerline signals of J Status Request or an M13 Address being sent. M and J are not in my settings. I would say this is a rare thing and passed it on only as a point of interest.

 

Brian, actually that is quite a common occurrence. I have read this on many different forums. I believe it has something to do with J Status and some code in M being represented by all ones and all zeros (or vice versa). It has been discussed extensively, but I don't know that any solution (or even any consensus as to the cause) was reached. You can find discussions of this on CocoonTech, on AccessHA, on the ADI forums, on the PowerHome forums and on Usenet c.h.a, among others. It has been my observation that many (perhaps most) of those experiencing this manifestation, have an ACT active repeater installed.

[upstatemike]

Sorry, I didn't mean to talk you out of the passive coupler. I just don't know what effect it will have on your repeater (which make/model do you have?).

 

IM

 

My X10 repeater is an XTB-IIR. I would also like my Insteon coupling to be close to the panel to maximize coverage on all branches and subpanels. If I do the coupling right then it may not be that important to put the ISY PLM right at the panel. I think two accesspoints at the panel will be less likely to mess up the X10 side than a passive coupler would be.

[IndyMike]

My X10 repeater is an XTB-IIR. I would also like my Insteon coupling to be close to the panel to maximize coverage on all branches and subpanels. If I do the coupling right then it may not be that important to put the ISY PLM right at the panel. I think two accesspoints at the panel will be less likely to mess up the X10 side than a passive coupler would be.

 

The XTB-IIR is a nice device. To be honest, I'd ask Jeff Volp about your configuration. He has a lot of test experience with different configurations. Actually, I thought I had read that the XTB-IIR was capable of repeating Insteon signals.

[IndyMike]

upstatemike,

 

I did a bit more checking and found a post from Jeff Volp that indicated the XTB-IIR could be used in parallel with a passive coupler (PZZ01).

 

With that info in hand, I threw caution to the wind and wired a passive coupler in parallel with my Leviton HCA02.

 

So far so good. I've tried numerous X10 command sequences (even dims) and haven't observed a problem.

 

The passive coupler did help the Insteon communication in my family room. I had recently added 2 appliancelincs (total of 8 Insteon devlices) for Christmas lighting and began having problems. The room had a boosterlinc installed between the Insteon devices and my panel to allow my X10 devices to operate (appliance modules). I could recover communication by removing two of the Insteon devices or by removing the Boosterlinc.

 

With the passive coupler installed at the panel I now have reliable communications with all devices installed (8 Insteon, 2 X10, 1 boosterlinc). The coupler and Leviton repeater are wired across a dedicated 220V breaker. With the breaker off, Insteon communication to the family room is poor (multiple communication failures during queries). With the breaker on (passive coupler and repeater in circuit) queries to the room are 100%.

 

My signal meter is out "on loan" at the moment, so I can't determine whether there was a signal level improvement or a "Hop" improvement. I suspect it's the latter.

 

My panel configuration currently consists of the following:

1) PLM/ISY at the panel on phase A.

2) CM15a (X10 Interface) at the panel on phase B.

3) Leviton HCA02 repeater across the phases.

4) Passive coupler in parallel with the HCA02.

 

My Singalincs are located in second floor bedrooms (panel is in the basement).

 

Regardless of which configuration you select, your idea of the triple gang box (both phases available) is a good one. Could be invaluable when troubleshooting is required.

 

IM

[Guest]

upstatemike,

 

I did a bit more checking and found a post from Jeff Volp that indicated the XTB-IIR could be used in parallel with a passive coupler (PZZ01).

 

With that info in hand, I threw caution to the wind and wired a passive coupler in parallel with my Leviton HCA02.

 

So far so good. I've tried numerous X10 command sequences (even dims) and haven't observed a problem.

 

The passive coupler did help the Insteon communication in my family room. I had recently added 2 appliancelincs (total of 8 Insteon devlices) for Christmas lighting and began having problems. The room had a boosterlinc installed between the Insteon devices and my panel to allow my X10 devices to operate (appliance modules). I could recover communication by removing two of the Insteon devices or by removing the Boosterlinc.

 

With the passive coupler installed at the panel I now have reliable communications with all devices installed (8 Insteon, 2 X10, 1 boosterlinc). The coupler and Leviton repeater are wired across a dedicated 220V breaker. With the breaker off, Insteon communication to the family room is poor (multiple communication failures during queries). With the breaker on (passive coupler and repeater in circuit) queries to the room are 100%.

 

My signal meter is out "on loan" at the moment, so I can't determine whether there was a signal level improvement or a "Hop" improvement. I suspect it's the latter.

 

My panel configuration currently consists of the following:

1) PLM/ISY at the panel on phase A.

2) CM15a (X10 Interface) at the panel on phase B.

3) Leviton HCA02 repeater across the phases.

4) Passive coupler in parallel with the HCA02.

 

My Singalincs are located in second floor bedrooms (panel is in the basement).

 

Regardless of which configuration you select, your idea of the triple gang box (both phases available) is a good one. Could be invaluable when troubleshooting is required.

 

IM

 

Good information. I was going to order a passive coupler the other day and the other formums moderator said it was the last thing I should do. Starting to think he is feeding me misinformation.

 

On my next SH order I will buy a passive coupler for the heck of it.

 

Hopefuly the meter will come tomorrow and I can see if there is a noise problem or not and put that theroy to bed or solve my problem.