Utility Power restored (from Generator)

[jeffpdavis1]

I hope to be buying an ISY99i controller for a whole assortment of plugins, switches, thermostats and sensors very soon. This whole idea came about after we just recently installed a Generac standby Generator for 12 or so circuits of the house, some of which include all the internal computing and networking, and external communications. We live in the mountains of Colorado and just had our first 1.5 hour outage. One of my servers sent me an email (as it was designed to do) when it noticed that its power was temporarily being supplied by an attached UPS, and 30 second later I got another email saying that power was restored, in this case by the generator. When utility power was restored, I received no emails because the UPS didn't notice any change when the transfer was made back to utility power because the transfer box apparently handled that well, I guess, and thus the server didn't send me an email saying it was restored. My problem arises from what to do if I were on vacation for when it goes on generator power and I never know when it goes back to utility. I don't want the generator running for days and days and would rather have a neighbor go over to the house and shut the generator off too.

1) Can I just put a plugin outlet with a lamp in that part of the house not served by the generator so that in a worst case I can just check the state of the light (on or off)? What happens to the state queried if there's no power supplied to that plugin? Hopefully there's a third unique state that describes this scenario.

2) Is there some email trigger I can set on that device ? This is what I'd really like (push, not pull)

3) There must be a more elegant Insteon solution, right?

-Jeff

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Jeff,

 

You can send emails/notifications from ISY. As a matter of fact, you do not need any plugin modules to know when power is restored. All you need is an ISY program that is run at Start up and which notifies you. You can also make customized notifications for each different event.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[jeffpdavis1]

Hi Michel,

That would be great if the ISY ever went down but I have all the computer/network equipment on a UPS until the generator takes over. The ISY will never go down but parts of the house not served by the generator will go down until utility power returns. It seems that would need to be part of the trigger that I'm looking for. Is that the type of event you're talking about that I could write some custom notification. If so, what kind of event would it be?

Thanks for helping,

Jeff

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Jeff,

 

The main question is whether or not any of your INSTEON devices are on backup power as well (which would not work anyway unless ALL of them are since UPS will block all INSTEON traffic).

 

What you might want to do is to not plug ISY on UPS/generator. This way, when power is restored, not only you would get notifications (as long as the router is also back up) but also you can switch on/off a load controller which turns on/off the generator.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[jeffpdavis1]

Hi Michel,

Yes, this is really a tricky question. Your idea of just having the ISY on the part of the house not serviced by the generator is an interesting one to think about. Will all these Insteon devices work in some default mode or manual mode? I'm thinking of the Venstar thermostat in particular. Heat in the winter was the main reason for getting the generator installed this summer/fall. If all the switches and outlets and thermostats will continue to work without the ISY powered up, then I think we have the winner here. I can just write a little startup procedure that sends me an email that the ISY is back up every time it is powered on. And yes, the router will never go down because it's on the generator when needed and on the UPS for the 30 interim seconds.

 

Like I said in the other post, I've got a lot to learn. Can you confirm that question in the 3rd sentence above?

 

Thanks Michel,

Jeff

[apostolakisl]

I don't own one of these, so i am only speculating here, but I am pretty sure it will work.

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2450/IOLinc-IN ... ut-/p.aspx

 

It has a dry contact sensor on it. Power a relay off of your generator (such that it only gets power from the generator). Connect the NO contacts of the relay to the dry contacts on the insteon device. The insteon device would be plugged in where it gets power all the time.

 

I can only assume then that there is a node in ISY for that dry contact that will show up as "on" when the contacts are closed, letting you know the generator is powered up.

[jeffpdavis1]

Well, it looks like I have a couple of options and really, that's all I was looking for: confirmation that what I want to do can be done. Thanks to all.

[jeffpdavis1]

I'm back to finding a way to determine when my generator goes on and then off. My ISY-99 and my 2413S are both powered via a UPS along with all my computer and network equipment. All devices work fine this way thanks to the dual band 2413S. It has been suggested that I power an In-LineLinc Relay w/Sense from a UPS, with the sense lead connected to the generator side of the transfer switch (really unsure how to do that) and the load connected to nothing (I can do that). It seems like powering any Insteon device via UPS that is not dual band would degrade or eliminate its effectiveness since any notification it would give to the ISY (that would eventually email me) would depend on its being able to communicate over the wire and not RF. Am I wrong on this?

 

Also if anyone has actually done this or similar exercise with all their ISY, PLM and Insteon devices never without power, I would appreciate any detailed instructions on how to make the connections, even if it involves getting an IOLinc and/or the In-LineLinc Relay. I have an electrician coming to the house in a week for another purpose who at least knows of Insteon and is a Generac reseller. I'd like to be able to have him do the necessary work on this while he's here. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[jeffpdavis1]

Sorry, I just saw the In-LineLinc Dual Band so part of the question above may be moot. But it's not the sensing kind. So I don't know where this stands now. Again, sorry.

[Xathros]

I think if it were me, I would have 2 IOLincRelays in the system. One to detect utility power and the other to detect generator supplied power. The utility side is easy. All you need is a 120v relay powered by a non-generator backed up circuit. Use the Normally Open contacts on that relay to run to the IOLinc input. The generator side is basically the same but I can't give good details without knowing what you have access to upstream of the transfer switch. Power a relay from the generator at a point where utility power is never present (An outlet on the generator itself ?) and run the NO contacts to the other IOLinc's input. This way, the ISY will be able to see utility power or generator running or both/neither. All bases covered.

 

-Xathros

[jeffpdavis1]

Thanks. There is an outlet on the generator. I'll see what the electrician says.

[jeffpdavis1]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have taken the advice supplied by Xathros in this thread, after several private exchanges for clarification. Two IOlinc 2450s and two 120VAC relays were needed so that I could tell when either or both sources of power were on or off. They are both on ONLY when the generator is in its exercise mode once per week. Power is not being supplied to the house from the generator in that mode. All credit goes to Xathros for helping me through this with these suggestions:

 

Both IOLincs can be piggybacked into the same power source as long as that source IS ON a circuit that switches over to generator power on utility fail - This way they will operate on utility or generator power. You will need one one relay coil powered from the utility only. This means that when the utility power drops, this should be on a circuit that DOES NOT get generator power. The second relay coil should be powered by the generator only (Like from a socket on the generator where utility power is NEVER present)

Wire the Gnd and Sense terminals from IOLinc #1 to the Com and N/O terminals on the Utility powered relay.

Wire the Gnd and Sense terminals from IOLinc #2 to the Com and N/O terminals on the Generator powered relay.

Here is the theory:

With utility power available, relay #1 is on and IOLinc #1 reports On while IOLinc #2 reports Off.

When the generator comes online, The relay #2 changes state, and IOLinc #1&2 now report On. (Exercise mode)

When the Utility fails and the Generator is online IOLinc #1 reports Off while IOLinc #2 says On.

Here is a suitable relay from Radioshack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2049721 These are a bit overpriced but usually available just down the street.

Here is one from Mouser Electronics: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mag ... M2u0kZ6dGt

 

 

 

With a few exceptions, I followed his plan. Since I had no good source of generator only supplied power other than from inside the transfer switch panel, I decided to put the relays and get the power sources inside the panel. I ended up taking the 110 from the top and bottom of the two phases on the right of the picture. I unscrewed the screws that hold the two large red and black leads and fit mine into it. I bought a 2 gang fuse holder and two 4 amp fuses at local electrical supply companies for half what I could find it on the web. That's amazing all by itself. I superglued the two relays to the left side of the inside of the panel and they are really on there. I drilled holes in the side of the panel to attach the fuse holder and then just measured and crimped all the connections. I decided to put the fuse before the relays because there was no other circuit breakers before the relays and the iolincs. It seemed to make sense to have a little more protection. It all works perfectly.

The two IOlinks both report correctly. I went out and turned the generator on in exercise mode. The meter only read about 90VAC and only 45Hz, but it was enough to energize the relay. But some logic in the generator prevents it from throwing the solenoid, which is good.

In the normal situation the Utility relay is energized and only gets a little warm, certainly not hot. So I think the whole arrangement will be great. Again, I know that knowing that the generator is on for an extended period of time when I'm not there is of only marginal value, but I feel a lot better now.

Thank you, Xathros for all your help. Let me know if you think I've done something I should have checked by an electrician.

-Jeff

[apostolakisl]

What is powering your IO lincs during a power outage?

 

If it is the generator, and the generator fails to start with a power outage, you won't get your email.

 

The only solution I can think of is to put them on a UPS along with a dual band device to jump the signal over to a dual band PLM or other dual band device on the same power lines as a non-dual band PLM.

[jeffpdavis1]

Yes, you're right. I was going to put them on the same UPS, about 6 feet away that is powering the dual band PLM, but was concerned that the noise that is talked about on UPSes would interfere. I just went down and switched them to be powered by the UPS on the battery side of the UPS. They still are reporting the same states. So maybe it's fine to do it that way. I'll need to extend the sensing wire about 6 feet to actually piggyback all three of them, the PLM and the two IOlincs. Am I right in thinking that if the IOlincs are directly connected to the PLM (piggybacked), their sensing capabilities would have a greater probability of being transmitted around the house (via RF) than if the two IOlincs were just connected to the UPS in another one of its outlets?

 

Thanks for thinking of yet one other situation where my setup might fail.

[Xathros]

Hi Jeff-

 

Thanks so much for the credit and nice job on the installation!

 

Thanks to apostolakisl for pointing out the generator fail possibility and providing the ideal solution for that as well.

 

I think you would likely want to jump over the UPS with a pair of AP's - one on the Battery side with the IOLincs and PLM and the other on the line side and of course a third on the other leg of the line side for phase bridging unless you have already managed that with some other dual band device. Otherwise, having the PLM behind the UPS will very likely have a negative effect on overall Insteon reliability around the house. Keep in mind that the rest of your network gear will also need UPS supplied power for this to work (Modem, router, switchs, ISY etc).

 

 

-Xathros

 

EDIT: Just re-read your last post and saw the Dualband PLM. so disregard the AP behind the UPS bit.