Unplugging and replugging devices changes stability

[oatflake]

Most of the time, my setup has been stable.

 

But recently, I've had a few times when I've had to do things like move furniture for cleaning, so my wife has asked me to unplug a bunch of lamps temporarily while we move things around. Once everything is done I plug all of my modules back into the exact outlets with the same loads they had before. And that's when I start to get unstable insteon communications.

 

In particular, I've noticed that two SwitchLinc Relays tend to stop responding altogether. These switches were not unplugged or powered down during the furniture move, so I find it odd that they act up. I figured if they were getting repeated signal messages from one of the lamp or appliance modules, they would still get them once I plugged the modules back in.

 

I have absolutely no idea why this seems to "fix" things, but if I remove the SwitchLincs AND the lamp modules I unplugged from the ISY-99i interface, then re-add them back in, one at a time, eventually everything works again.

 

This has been incredibly frustrating because I can't understand how the system could have changed, and when I eventually get everything put back it all works again.

 

Does the ISY-99i, or the PLM, or the modules, "adapt" to fact that there are now modules missing, and when I put them back they are unhappy again? Is there some sort of "routing" of messages that has to get rebuilt by re-adding modules?

 

I must add, the reason this concerns me is this really makes it hard for me to troubleshoot my system when identifying whether a new appliance requires a FilterLinc. I like to power everything off, but if it means having to unplug and re-add every device whenever I make small changes to my system this gets very time consuming!

[LeeG]

"Does the ISY-99i, or the PLM, or the modules, "adapt" to fact that there are now modules missing, and when I put them back they are unhappy again? Is there some sort of "routing" of messages that has to get rebuilt by re-adding modules?"

 

No to both questions as far as the ISY is concerned except the ISY could stop communicating with a device that has stopped responding to commands. All powered devices act as repeaters so the absence of devices could affect the quality of powerline communication and RF communication if the devices are Dual Band. The effect of losing some Dual Band devices could have an effect on the Insteon Mesh Network but that is not anything under control of any application. All RF communication is automatic and autonomous as far as the application (ISY in this case) is concerned.

 

The ISY could certainly note the absence of modules if a Program tried to communicate with the missing modules. This could result in a device error popup message and the node being marked with a red !. This condition can be cleared by right clicking on the node and selecting Query after the device power has been restored. When the Query is successful the red ! is removed and ISY proceeds with normal communication with that device.

 

None of this should require removing a device from the ISY to recover.

[oatflake]

Ok, that's good to know, and it's how I expect it should work. Once a device gets the red exclamation mark, I usually have a really hard time communicating with it again from the ISY.

 

That's the part I don't understand - I can hit "query" from the ISY on the device, and it won't respond. I'll get the popups about not being able to communicate with device XX.YY.ZZ.1 and yet if I delete the device, then go through the trouble of adding it back again as a new device, it will start working.

 

Very strange. I will have to experiment more.

[LeeG]

From a technical view point that does not make sense. If a device will not respond to a Query it should not be responding to any command which would make adding it back as a device impossible. There is some other variable involved here that has not been identified yet.

[LeeG]

It might be useful to run an Event Trace with Level 3 the next time. Issue a Query to a few of the devices that are having issues. I'm making an assumption the device is not responding at all but that might not be the case.

 

A device add does not issue a device reset or anything similar. In fact the first command that is issued now is a Get Insteon Engine which is very much like a Query, just asking for different information.

[Teken]

What you're also describing is related to firewall, policy, network proxy setting errors. I would also ask you to ensure any anti-virus, software firewall, hardware firewall, are set to allow / white list the UDI ISY module to allow it communicate unimpeded.

 

Teken . . .

[oatflake]

Okay, so it turns out LeeG is right, this is in fact not related. However, it did open eyes to something completely different that was causing problems.

 

My ISY-99i and the computer I use to talk to it are in my office, where I have an overhead light with a CFL bulb controlled by a standard wall switch. I've been so paranoid about CFL bulbs that whenever I work in that room debugging my insteon devices, I always turn the switch off to make sure my CFL office light is not on. When I want to stress test my system to make sure that everything can still handle the worst case scenario, I turn that bulb ON, along with all other potential "noise makers" that I can find in my house (TV, all lights, things that charge batteries, power strips).

 

I've discovered that my house wiring must have something odd about it because my insteon devices are actually MORE reliable when I have these so-called noise-makers turned ON then off! I even have what should be the worst thing - a Smart Strip SCG3, which even, right in the specs, advertises it has a "0.1 ufd film box capacitor" which I understand is priority number 1 to isolate using a FilterLinc.

 

Anyway, all that is an aside:

So my mistake is that whenever I am re-programming my devices, I have to turn on my office light so I can read the address codes of the devices I wrote down on my little pieces of paper; it's too dim for me to see them with my poor vision. The actual act of turning on that CFL light completes some sort of electrical bridge which lets the ISY-99i's PLM modem communicate nearly flawlessly with the insteon devices. I verified this last night - CFL light on, great communication! Light off, poor, really unstable communication.

 

This behavior seems the exact opposite of what I was expecting after reading all of the communication issues threads on this forum!

 

Anyway, I couldn't just leave all of my lights on all the time to solve this. So I unplugged everything that I could (except for the in-wall light switches) and started over from scratch. That's when I discovered that the Smart Strip SCG3, which I isolated with a FilterLinc. Turns out my system gets a lot more stable if I plug the Smart Strip SCG3 in directly into the wall without the FilterLinc. I think another poster discovered that FilterLincs add some "load" to the circuitry - I guess my house must be one of those cases. I removed almost all of the FilterLincs from my house; the only one I have not removed is the one that is in front of my APC UPS, which is right next to my PLM modem. I'm thinking maybe I should remove that too! (I now have about 6 FilterLincs unplugged, and I'm concerned they are causing more trouble than helping.)

 

So my system is stable right now, but I am a little worried that I may have reached the "max" number of controllable devices in my house; it seems if I plug any new Insteon device into any of my outlets, things stop working. I guess I may need to buy an oscilloscope and learn how to do all that fancy powerline analysis some of you do?

[Teken]

Okay, so it turns out LeeG is right, this is in fact not related. However, it did open eyes to something completely different that was causing problems.

 

My ISY-99i and the computer I use to talk to it are in my office, where I have an overhead light with a CFL bulb controlled by a standard wall switch. I've been so paranoid about CFL bulbs that whenever I work in that room debugging my insteon devices, I always turn the switch off to make sure my CFL office light is not on. When I want to stress test my system to make sure that everything can still handle the worst case scenario, I turn that bulb ON, along with all other potential "noise makers" that I can find in my house (TV, all lights, things that charge batteries, power strips).

 

I've discovered that my house wiring must have something odd about it because my insteon devices are actually MORE reliable when I have these so-called noise-makers turned ON then off! I even have what should be the worst thing - a Smart Strip SCG3, which even, right in the specs, advertises it has a "0.1 ufd film box capacitor" which I understand is priority number 1 to isolate using a FilterLinc.

 

Anyway, all that is an aside:

So my mistake is that whenever I am re-programming my devices, I have to turn on my office light so I can read the address codes of the devices I wrote down on my little pieces of paper; it's too dim for me to see them with my poor vision. The actual act of turning on that CFL light completes some sort of electrical bridge which lets the ISY-99i's PLM modem communicate nearly flawlessly with the insteon devices. I verified this last night - CFL light on, great communication! Light off, poor, really unstable communication.

 

This behavior seems the exact opposite of what I was expecting after reading all of the communication issues threads on this forum!

 

Anyway, I couldn't just leave all of my lights on all the time to solve this. So I unplugged everything that I could (except for the in-wall light switches) and started over from scratch. That's when I discovered that the Smart Strip SCG3, which I isolated with a FilterLinc. Turns out my system gets a lot more stable if I plug the Smart Strip SCG3 in directly into the wall without the FilterLinc. I think another poster discovered that FilterLincs add some "load" to the circuitry - I guess my house must be one of those cases. I removed almost all of the FilterLincs from my house; the only one I have not removed is the one that is in front of my APC UPS, which is right next to my PLM modem. I'm thinking maybe I should remove that too! (I now have about 6 FilterLincs unplugged, and I'm concerned they are causing more trouble than helping.)

 

So my system is stable right now, but I am a little worried that I may have reached the "max" number of controllable devices in my house; it seems if I plug any new Insteon device into any of my outlets, things stop working. I guess I may need to buy an oscilloscope and learn how to do all that fancy powerline analysis some of you do?

 

 

What you're describing is counter to what thousands of Insteon users see . . .

 

Teken . . .

[oatflake]

 

What you're describing is counter to what thousands of Insteon users see . . .

 

Teken . . .

 

I agree, however I did more testing this weekend and discovered that some things are consistent with what other users see.

 

Things that benefit from a Filterlinc:

 

1 - APC UPS. Without a Filterlinc things get much, much worse. No communication at all.

2 - Sony iPod speaker dock. Without Filterlinc, communication is marginal, with it, much better.

3 - Linksys WRT-610N wireless access point. Filterlinc helps here about as much as Sony iPod speaker dock.

 

Things that I thought would benefit from a Filterlinc, but in fact having the Filterlinc in place makes things worse:

 

Smart Strip SCG3. Even advertises it has a 0.1 ufd capacitor. Plugging this in directly into the wall seems to make no difference at all. Adding a Filterlinc to this outlet, even if nothing is plugged into the Filterlinc, makes nearly everything stop working. I think it's more of a mark of this outlet than the Smart Strip.

 

Odd behavior that seems to run counter to others, and my previous experience in my apartment where I lived a few months ago (just moved into this house with all my insteon gear!):

 

- Before I had 2 Access Points across opposite phases as close to my power box as possible. PLM was somewhat downstream of this. That seemed ideal, and is widely suggested as the ideal setup. Today, it appears the best setup is to move my PLM as close as possible to the same circuit that my in-wall SwitchLinc relays are on. Only 1 access point is present on the opposite phase; putting another access point on the opposite circuit (same as the PLM) nearest the power box seems to make things a lot worse.

 

- Adding additional dual-mode dimmer modules seems to hurt powerline communication. I have to very carefully space these out. Putting one of these on the same circuit as my access points seems to make communications to half of the wall switches get really unstable.

 

This may be a unique thing to my house, but it appears as though nearly all of the wall switches are on one of two circuits. I don't know how to determine which phase the wall switches are on; is there a diagnostic test like the 4-taps on the Access Point that will help me determine this easily? It appears that the wall-switches (non-dual mode) are the most sensitive to changes. The plug-in modules are remarkably tolerant.

 

I have been watching the Event Viewer in mode 3, and it appears as though the wall-switches seem to always respond with 1 hop remaining, which I take to meant that something else is always in-between the PLM and wall-switch. I'm presuming that since they are all on the same circuit that this will always be the case because at least one of the other modules will repeat the signal first.

[IndyMike]

Hello oatflake,

 

I've been watching your posts from the sideline with interest. I have a number of comments/questions on your latest post(s):

 

So my mistake is that whenever I am re-programming my devices, I have to turn on my office light so I can read the address codes of the devices I wrote down on my little pieces of paper; it's too dim for me to see them with my poor vision. The actual act of turning on that CFL light completes some sort of electrical bridge which lets the ISY-99i's PLM modem communicate nearly flawlessly with the insteon devices. I verified this last night - CFL light on, great communication! Light off, poor, really unstable communication.

 

While CFL's do generate noise, very few that I have found generate noise in the Insteon frequency range. Dimmable CFL's can produce huge impulse spikes that may be problematic. Your devices are not connected to a dimmer (no impulse spikes) and are evidently not generating noise that affects the communication. I have many CFL's connected to relay switches that simply don't cause a problem.

 

CFL's also present a capacitive load on the line, and therefore absorb Insteon signals to a degree. In your case, turning on the CFL's may be switching on a capacitive load that is actually filtering noise at your PLM. If you'd like to test this theory, plug your filter strip (with the .1 uF cap) into your office and retry your communications (CFL's off).

 

Things that I thought would benefit from a Filterlinc, but in fact having the Filterlinc in place makes things worse:

 

Smart Strip SCG3. Even advertises it has a 0.1 ufd capacitor. Plugging this in directly into the wall seems to make no difference at all. Adding a Filterlinc to this outlet, even if nothing is plugged into the Filterlinc, makes nearly everything stop working. I think it's more of a mark of this outlet than the Smart Strip.

 

As you've learned, the filterlinc itself presents a load to Insteon. Normally the filterlinc presents less of a load than the device you are attempting to isolate. In the case above, you may have very marginal communications and the addition of the filterlinc is enough to push things into the noise level.

 

Have you tried the filterlinc by itself (SCG3 unplugged)? If the filterlinc by itself is a problem, you may have a bad unit (shorted input coil).

 

In general, it sounds as if you have a couple of circuits that are heavily loaded with Insteon devices. This, combined with the line length may be producing low signal levels.

 

Could you post the number of devices, model, and Vintage? And yes, the device vintage can make a difference. Older devices (pre 2009) presented different loads and simulcasted very differently than current units.

[oatflake]

Have you tried the filterlinc by itself (SCG3 unplugged)? If the filterlinc by itself is a problem, you may have a bad unit (shorted input coil).

 

In general, it sounds as if you have a couple of circuits that are heavily loaded with Insteon devices. This, combined with the line length may be producing low signal levels.

 

Could you post the number of devices, model, and Vintage? And yes, the device vintage can make a difference. Older devices (pre 2009) presented different loads and simulcasted very differently than current units.

 

I have tried the FilterLinc by itself, and it presents the same behavior. However, I haven't tried other FilterLincs in its place yet; I do plan on switching some of them around when I get the chance, just to make sure.

 

The other devices were all purchased within about 3 months of each other. They are 3 SwitchLinc Relay 2476S, a SwitchLinc Dimmer, 2476D, 3 ApplianceLinc Outdoor 2456S3E modules (used indoor for incandescent lamps now; I used to use them for CFL lamps in my past apartment), 3 LampLinc Dual phase modules B2457D2, and an ApplianceLink v.38 2456S3. The SwitchLinc Relays were bought in April of this year, and all the rest were purchased in December of 2011, all direct from smarthome.com.

 

I can dig up more specifics later when I get back in town if that helps.

[IndyMike]

Hello oatflake,

 

Please do try a different Filterlinc on this circuit. The following diagram is what I have for the filterlinc. Under normal operation, this should present only moderate loading to Insteon signals. If the factory miss-stuffed components C1 or L1, or if they are shorted/open, you will see the effects of the C3 filter capacitor (22x larger than your filter strip).

 

Either there is a problem with this Filterlinc, or I am totally clueless.

 

 

 

I did do some playing around with "heavily loaded circuits". As luck would have it, I've accumulated a fair quantity of modules as I prepare to add devices to my second floor and basement. I had never tried over five modules on a single circuit and thought I'd give it a go.

 

I used 10 Insteon modules to load a branch circuit in my basement. I then tested communication to all devices with and without noise (powerline only - no RF). I included both Accesspoints (2) and a Dual Band LL on this circuit and was fishing for possible communication collisions due to the combined RF/powerline communication. I was not able to find anything. Using Houselinc, I polled the units 1000 times (PLM retries disabled) and received 100% communications on all units.

 

Bottom line - nothing obvious due to line loading/multiple RF transceivers alone.

 

If you could describe in detail -

1) PLM model and version (2412S or 2413S)

2) Location of your PLM and installed devices on that circuit.

3) Method/location of phase coupling.

4) Describe your problem circuit

4a) Installed Insteon devices and loads

4b) Phase (relative to the PLM)

4c) Circuit length (approximate length in feet)

4d) Other installed appliances

 

I'm thinking that your phenomena, where "turning on" the CFL's improves communications, is screaming for our attention. A few things to try:

1) Please try installing your 0.1 uf filter strip on the same circuit as the PLM. If this improves communications, it will give us another clue.

2) Assuming that you have a 2413S PLM (dual band), try installing this on a filterlinc. This should "force" the PLM to use RF communications only. If communications improve it may signal that you still have a noisey powerline at the PLM.

 

IM

[Brian H]

IndyMike, R1 and R2 are part of your test rig?

My production FilterLincs have no resistors in them.

Though a 1 megohm across C3. Would prevent folks from reporting shocks when unplugging an unloaded one and touching the input pins. If it was unplugged near a peak in the AC waveform.

[IndyMike]

Brian,

 

Yes - I added R1 and R2 for simulation purposes. There are no resistors in the Filterlinc.

[oatflake]

If you could describe in detail -

1) PLM model and version (2412S or 2413S)

2) Location of your PLM and installed devices on that circuit.

3) Method/location of phase coupling.

4) Describe your problem circuit

4a) Installed Insteon devices and loads

4b) Phase (relative to the PLM)

4c) Circuit length (approximate length in feet)

4d) Other installed appliances

 

IM

 

Sorry Mike for the really delayed response! I was out traveling and didn't subscribe to this post so I didn't notice the reply.

 

1) PLM is 2413S

 

2) PLM is about 40 ft from circuit breaker box, middle of house (1500 sq ft). I relocated it here away from my main server closet which has an APC UPS which I isolated with a Filterlinc. The closet it lives in and gets power from has many devices, all of which are behind a Filterlinc with the exception of my alarm panel which has two giant wall warts connected to a power strip that I *think* has no surge protection or filtering, but I do plan on removing that once I call the alarm company to confirm it will not alert anything.

 

3) My phase coupling is a pair of access points which are installed close to the circuit breaker box which is also near where my server closet is. I ended up removing one of those because for some reason everything works better without it; I have several dual-band lamp dimmer modules which appear to take up the slack.

 

4) The problem circuit is what I refer to as the "every light switch in the house" circuit. Whoever designed this house in the 50's decided to put every light switch in every room attached to a single 15A breaker which snakes all over the house. I have 5 insteon switches on this circuit - 3 are Switchlinc relays single band (2476S), 1 is a dual-band dimmer (2476D), another is a dual-band relay (2477S). All of them work fine except for one of the 2476S switches. For some reason this one, when I query it using the Event viewer, always responds with 1 or 0 hops remaining. All of the other switches respond with 2 hops remaining. When I turn on the 2476S often I can't turn it off again; it's about 50% of the time the communication goes through. The load on that switch is a pair of 40 Watt incandescent bulbs; they used to be CFLs but I swapped them out.

 

4b) I don't know how to determine the phase of the circuit with all of the light switches installed, because there are no regular outlets I can plug the Access Point into so I can do the tap-test where I can see the lights flash green or red. The light switch manual indicates that it has a multi-color LED in it; is it possible to get one of the 2476S, 2477S or 2476D switches to indicate what phase it is on?

 

4c) No idea - probably the longest in the house, since it must snake through all 1500 sq ft at all corners.

4d) Not too many yet - I've unplugged all non-insteon related appliances except my refrigerator and central AC and the behavior seems the same. My TV is behind a Filterlinc but I've also tested that unplugged from the wall as well. I've removed all wall warts and cell phone chargers to verify.

[ELA]

 

 

I don't know how to determine the phase of the circuit with all of the light switches installed, because there are no regular outlets I can plug the Access Point into so I can do the tap-test where I can see the lights flash green or red. The light switch manual indicates that it has a multi-color LED in it; is it possible to get one of the 2476S, 2477S or 2476D switches to indicate what phase it is on?

 

I believe the 2477S will support the phase bridge beacon test? Have you checked the manual?

 

If you can access the various light fixture's sockets you could also use one of the those (screw-in to plug-in) adapters and plug in your access point ( not into the 2476D controlled lamp though). As a temporary test method.

[ergodic]

As you have a 2413S you might try a configuration that has worked out well for me.

 

1) Install just 2 APs - one on each phase, preferably near the service box. (I also have a passive coupler, but I don't think that's important these days.) Do not install any other APs unless you have a distance issue to deal with.

 

2) Put the 2413S behind a Filterlinc, forcing the PLM to communicate with the APs via RF and not powerline. Keep the PLM reasonably close to the APs if you can so that the RF is reliable. Make sure there are no wi-fi access points or portable phones, etc. close by.

 

See if this helps your problem any. It is usually not too hard to setup this configuration to test.

 

There seem to be occasions where the dual-band RF/powerline can confuse the device firmware, especially in the presence of unreliable communication. (This is one of those mystery "X-factors" in Insteon problems.)

 

Use Filterlincs where they make sense. I have a conventional 2200 sq. ft 4-bed 2-story house. In my case I have never seen an issue where a Filterlinc caused a problem. Nor have I ever had a situation where an AP - other than the two bridging the service legs - helped out anything. Of course if you have a long run or a heavily Insteon-loaded line, an AP will help that.

 

Also make sure you have no V.35 Switchlinc dimmers/relays anywhere. These things will cause random failure modes in your whole system that can drive you crazy.

[johnnyt]

Ergodic,

 

Do AP's pass on X10? Am thinking of doing what your suggesting in part to have my PLM able to control devices connected off a UPS (which is plugged into a filterlinc near my service panel). I do need, however, to send/receive X10.

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Brian H]

APs do not pass X10 signal along to other modules.

Actually no Insteon modules will pass on any X10 signals.

[ergodic]

Yeah, I believe you need a passive coupler for X10. If you have X10, you probably have one anyway. X10 doesn't work very well without one.

 

The APs are active devices and actually buffer and repeat the Insteon signalling from RF to powerline, not just the general frequency band.

 

The passive couplers will bridge both X10 and Insteon frequencies. I've tested comm. with and without the coupler and it makes no difference for Insteon that I could detect as long as the APs are active. I have no X10 now but it's a bother to take it out from behind the washer, so I still have it in the loop.

[oatflake]

As you have a 2413S you might try a configuration that has worked out well for me.

 

1) Install just 2 APs - one on each phase, preferably near the service box. (I also have a passive coupler, but I don't think that's important these days.) Do not install any other APs unless you have a distance issue to deal with.

 

2) Put the 2413S behind a Filterlinc, forcing the PLM to communicate with the APs via RF and not powerline. Keep the PLM reasonably close to the APs if you can so that the RF is reliable. Make sure there are no wi-fi access points or portable phones, etc. close by.

 

See if this helps your problem any. It is usually not too hard to setup this configuration to test.

 

Thank you for this - this was a really good suggestion - I placed the PLM behind a FilterLinc and tested it first - that resulted in a lot of the spurious problems with one of my switches going away, although I did notice that I had slightly less reliable communication throughout the rest of the house. I then added a single AP right next to the PLM which is on the same leg. I think did the 4-tap test on the AP and noticed that my giant circuit of light switches seemed to respond well because two of the switches are now using 2477S which are acting as APs in their own right - they blinked green so I knew they were on the opposite leg.

 

Looking at the ISY-99i event log I see most of my communications now have remaining hops = 1 now, but I attribute that to because they have to jump through the AP now for all of my power-line only devices. In any event, even though more of my devices are taking 1 extra hop, that extra hop appears to be much more reliable, at least with all of the combinations of things being on/off in my house!

[IndyMike]

Thank you for this - this was a really good suggestion - I placed the PLM behind a FilterLinc and tested it first - that resulted in a lot of the spurious problems with one of my switches going away, although I did notice that I had slightly less reliable communication throughout the rest of the house. I then added a single AP right next to the PLM which is on the same leg. I think did the 4-tap test on the AP and noticed that my giant circuit of light switches seemed to respond well because two of the switches are now using 2477S which are acting as APs in their own right - they blinked green so I knew they were on the opposite leg.

 

Looking at the ISY-99i event log I see most of my communications now have remaining hops = 1 now, but I attribute that to because they have to jump through the AP now for all of my power-line only devices. In any event, even though more of my devices are taking 1 extra hop, that extra hop appears to be much more reliable, at least with all of the combinations of things being on/off in my house!

 

Hello oatflake,

 

Thank you for performing the above test and providing the information on your installation.

 

I had suspected that one of your problems was due to noise at the PLM. The fact that turning on your CFL's improved communications indicated that the capacitive loading of the CFL's might be performing a filtering function.

 

By filtering the PLM you've eliminated the powerline input and forced the device to communicate via RF. Since this improved the reliability of the 2477S (should be 2476S), it proves (in my opinion) that there is powerline noise at the PLM. As you noted, the loss of one hop is normal for RF bridged communications.

 

The phenomena where marginal powerline + good RF produce intermittent faults is something that I have observed with Insteon RF devices over the years. They appear to have a preference for powerline which is why they are not a cure-all:

1) Good powerline + bad RF = good communication.

2) Marginal powerline + good RF = intermittent communication

3) No powerline + good RF = good communication

 

Perhaps this will be resolved in the I2CS devices.

 

Please understand that I proposed filtering the PLM as a "test only" configuration. We need to locate the noise source in your system and filter at that point. My bet would be your A/V rack since it caused you to relocate the PLM away from the rack and was causing problems for your AP.

 

It sounds like you now have a handle on the phases for your devices. I would encourage you to further trace this down at the service panel. Having a circuit map of Insteon devices/possible problem devices can pay huge dividends down the road.

 

IM

 

Edit: typo in the above. 2477S should be 2476S (non dual band).

[ELA]

I placed the PLM behind a FilterLinc and tested it first -

I then added a single AP right next to the PLM which is on the same leg.

 

I was curious and wanted to discuss just what this actually accomplished "NOTE: the right next to on same leg"

Seems to me that you are doing two things, one is substituting the AP power line transmitter for the PLM's?

The other is completely eliminating the initial send, or hop 0 from reaching any other device.

 

While it might be noise, couldn't it also be a weak transmitter in the PLM? Without ability to test for that it is an unknown.

 

If it were noise then you would expect the AP power line transceiver to also now have issues. Not saying it is not noise. Just discussing the theory and concepts.

So in that scenario you are reliant on several remote devices ( outside the influence of some localized noise source) to receive the hop 0 via RF and then those devices simulcasting provides a strong hop #1 without noise influence.

 

This does make sense to me and fits something I have encountered in my testing. At least some Insteon devices attempt to reach into the noise floor ( attempt to receive and interpret very low amplitude messages, like a distant hop #0 ) and get a failed response. Also for some reason the subsequent hops, that are stronger amplitude, also fail. I have attributed this to poor coordination in simulcasting. Or multi-path interference.

 

I am always attempting to get the strongest initial send ( hop 0) signal as possible for best reliability.

I imagine in some installs this may be too difficult to achieve. In those cases perhaps isolating the PLMs power line transceiver is a good option, although as stated you loose one hop attempt.

 

Just wanted to point out that there may be other possible explanations.

 

I have always felt this is exactly why Smartlabs is forcing the Dual band issue and dropping power line only devices.

[oatflake]

Just wanted to point out that there may be other possible explanations.

 

I have always felt this is exactly why Smartlabs is forcing the Dual band issue and dropping power line only devices.

 

Since I have no test equipment (or experience to operate it) my theory is that ELA's suggestion that the PLM's powerline signaling could be weak, or at least weaker than the AP. Essentially what I did was substitute the PLM's powerline signaling with my AP's powerline signaling and that improved the communications to the rest of my powerline only devices.

 

All of the devices which are now respond with "2-hops remaining" are wireless only devices within a short distance of the PLM.

 

I think in my case the one problematic circuit, the one with all of the switches on it is always going to be noisy. It has just way too many wires running all over the building attached to all sorts of switches with wire nuts connectors and connections to ceiling fixtures. I suspect someplace in the entire mix there are poor connections or thing inside light fixtures which degrade the signal. Both of the switches which have been poor performers that I've switched from power-line only to dual-band switches no longer have issues, and it's because they are talking straight to my PLM via wireless now. I think the only real solution is just for me to bite the bullet and buy more dual-band switches and swap out the troublemakers.

[IndyMike]

Hello Oatflake,

 

ELA has made some good points on the issue of noise vs signal level. I had missed the fact that you had installed the AP close to the PLM. I had instead thought that you had installed this near your panel.

 

In order to settle the issue, would you mind removing the AP entirely? This should cause the PLM to communicate with the other AP and your dual band devices directly via RF.

 

I do agree with ELA on the that your 2476S units may not be simulcasting well. Could you provide the firmware revision of these units?

 

Thanks for your patience,

IM

 

Edit: One last thought - you had previously stated that you could turn on the 2476S units, but couldn't turn them off.

 

Question -

1) Did the 2476S units physically turn off, but the ISY didn't indicate such?

2) ...or did the units actually miss the command and physically stay on?

 

Option 1 implies that the 2476S may not be simulcasting well and the PLM is seeing a weak signal (possibly with noise at the PLM).

Option 2 implies that the PLM may not be transmitting well (possibly with noise at the 2476s).