Motion Sensors gone wild

[backinthelab]

I know better than to mess with tech when it's not broken, but I went ahead and updated to the latest firmware and now there's havoc in the household. I'm not certain that the cause was the upgrade, but it seemed to coincide with the issues I'm having. Plainly stated, all of my 2420's are acting completely sporadic in terms of actually turning lights on and off. I digress, ONE sensor is fine and it's the only one in a scene with no programs controlling it.

 

So, that leads us to check the programming, right? I've checked and re-checked, compared to examples here on the forums. I even created a new set of programs for one sensor to test it (I did disable the old). As of now, three sensors are sometimes working, usually not. Literally, sometimes the light will turn on and off, sometimes on but not off, etc, etc.

 

Aside from the programs, I've also run a restore on all applicable devices and ran diagnostic checks. One issue that I noticed with a kitchen switch programmatically controlled by a 2420 was a mismatch of the last link record (00) when running a "compare". I've attempted a restore with no resolve. In addition EVERY scene test I've run shows "FAILED" next to every device, however, it does show ACK after that so I'm not sure if it's ok.

 

Any help pointing me in the right direction would be very much appreciated. I'm at a complete loss, here, and am tempted to toss all of my 2420's out into the street!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello backinthelab,

 

If all scene tests fail, this can only point to two things:

1. PLM

2. Signal

 

Questions:

1. Do you have baby monitors? If so, turn them off

2. Do you have any INSTEON thermostats? If so, reboot them

 

Suggestion:

1. Unplug your PLM for a few minutes

2. Plug it back in

3. Reboot ISY

4. Wait for query to complete

5. Go to Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table

6. Click on Start

7. Once done, click on the Count button ... how many links do you have?

 

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Thanks for the quick reply! To answer your questions, no, we don't have any baby monitors but do have a Ventstar with the Insteon module. I'll give this a whirl and post the results.

[backinthelab]

OK, finally got around to this, been a hectic weekend! I followed your instructions and came up with 171 links. I've saved the results, as well, so let me know if you need me to post them.

 

I'm not sure if it means anything, but I've noticed that whenever the ISY is rebooted, the family room lights turn on. This is an 8-button Keypadlinc (2486D). Thought I'd throw it out there, just in case it points to anything else that could be causing this.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello backinthelab,

 

The number of links seem OK. Did you reboot your thermostats?

 

As far as the light turning on at ISY reboot, it tells me:

1. PLM is working

2. You have a program that runs at start up

 

So, if you are still having problem with all your scenes, then the problem must be related to some noise or signal suckers on your network. Has anything changed at all in your electrical system?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Xathros]

backinthelab-

 

Keep in mind that the the term "Changed" as used above includes things like new devices added (computers, chargers, A/V components etc.) or any of the same relocated to different outlets. Any CFL or Florescent type lamps replaces/added anywhere? Any Power/Surge/UPS strips added or relocated?

 

-Xathros

[backinthelab]

Michel, my apologies, I did not restart the thermostat the first time around. After doing this again the proper way, links table came up with around 335. Quite a jump! I've exported these, as well.

 

Looking back over the past few weeks, the only thing that's changed was that I replaced my outside lights with LED bulbs. But, this was after the issues I'm seeing now. We did have a 4-hour power outage a couple of weeks ago, this was right around the time that I updated.

 

Oh, one more thing, when I login to the Admin Console, an error window ops up that says "Auto-Update Status - Authorization Failed.". This was after the reboot and it continues now every time the console is opened.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi backinthelab,

 

Thanks for the update. Is Scene Test still failing for all your scenes?

 

I think the power outage killed one of the devices that's instrumental in your communications. Do you have a trouble communicating with any of your devices?

 

Authorization problem was on our side and it should be fixed by now.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Michel, here's an example of what I'm seeing during a Scene Test. This is the Kitchen, it has (3) Switchlinc dimmers and an IR channel. I disabled the motion programs before I ran the scene:

Mon 10/29/2012 04:08:47 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.2E CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)

Mon 10/29/2012 04:08:48 PM : [GRP-RX      ] 02 61 10 13 00 06 

----- Kitchen - All Test Results -----
[Failed] Kitchen (Main) (12 61 F4 1)
[Failed] Kitchen (Over Fireplace) (12 66 85 1)
[Failed] Kitchen (Island) (12 5E 3D 1)
[Failed] IR12 - Kitchen (12 F4 43 F)
----- Kitchen - All Test Results -----
Mon 10/29/2012 04:08:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 10 CF 13 00

Mon 10/29/2012 04:08:56 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.10 CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:09 PM : CLI-WBug: Connecting to datafeed.weatherbug.com

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:09 PM : CLI-WBug: Successfully Processed WBug Response

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1  1] 402000.000000  Weather - Temperature = 40.2 °F

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1  4] 330000.000000  Weather - Feels Like = 33 °F

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1  5] -3000.000000  Weather - Temperature Rate = -0.3 °F/h

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1  6] 850000.000000  Weather - Humidity = 85 %

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1  7] 0.000000  Weather - Humidity Rate = 0 %/h

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 10] 350000.000000  Weather - Dew Point = 35 °F

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 11] 110000.000000  Weather - Wind Speed = 11 mph

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 12] 110000.000000  Weather - Wind Average Speed = 11 mph

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 14] 20000.000000  Weather - Wind Average Directi = NNE

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 18] 7000.000000  Weather - Light = 0.7 %

Mon 10/29/2012 04:09:10 PM : [MOD  2  2  1 19] -2000.000000  Weather - Light Rate = -0.2 %/h

 

One issue I've seen is the 6-Button Keypadlinc in the basement has gone out a couple of times in the past. It is only controlling lights in one room and is a responder to (2) Open/Close Sensors on my safes, and the Garage Door Sensor.

 

Another question for you, is there such as thing as having too many AP's? For example, our house is about 3600 SF. On the main floor there is the KPL and (3) AP's. 2nd Floor has (3) AP's, while the basement has (1) due to lack of outlets down there. Is this too many, and if so, how many is reasonable to have in a home our size?

 

Lastly, and I think I already don't like the answer , but how should I go about finding which devices have died? I have around (40) total, I believe, and really am dreading the thought of removing and relinking!

[LeeG]

It is unlikely that many devices have failed. Michel was referring to possibly having lost an Access Point used for phase coupling for example. Run the 4 tap Set button test to verify phase coupling is working. Could also be something is generating interference preventing the PLM signal from getting to many devices. Could be the PLM was damaged. Unfortunately there are no good powerline evaluation tools for Insteon as X10 has. It is mostly a process of elimination and testing.

 

A Scene test fails either because the powerline messages are not reaching the devices or the link records in the devices have been lost. Not likely many devices would lose a link database. A Show Device Links Table and Compare for a particular device that is failing a Scene test will verify the device link database. Of course if the powerline is such that messages do not reach the device the Show will also fail.

 

Can the devices that fail a Scene test be turned On/Off from the Admin Console. If this works reliably but Scene test fails then link database is of greater concern. A Restore Device will rebuild the device link database but do not try that until good communication with the device is verified with reliable On/Off from the Admin Console.

[backinthelab]

LeeG, I will test the AP's, however, all devices and scenes can be reliably controlled by the console, as well as Mobilinc. The status of these devices is not always accurate, though, so a query is sometimes needed.

 

I've already used the "Restore Device" option for many devices in my attempt to resolve this issue. I hope I didn't cause further problems.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi backinthelab,

 

LeeG is 100% correct: I meant an Access Point (or dual band device) used for bridging phases.

 

Are you saying that all scenes work when controlled from ISY but only scene test fails? Or, is it that none of the scenes work (as implied in your first post) and neither does scene test for those scenes?

 

To quote LeeG:

Can the devices that fail a Scene test be turned On/Off from the Admin Console. If this works reliably but Scene test fails then link database is of greater concern. A Restore Device will rebuild the device link database but do not try that until good communication with the device is verified with reliable On/Off from the Admin Console.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Michel, no, just motion sensors and the devices they control (programmatically). I didn't mean to insinuate it was every scene and every device. Then again, I haven't run a diag check on any other scene so I guess I can't say if it's more than just the motion.

 

Still, these issues seem to be related to communication. What clear path can I take to resolve this? Is the AP check the only thing I can do?

 

Lastly, I've noticed that a fast on or fast off on the devices (associated with a 2420), do not respond at all programmatically. This is insane, 3 years with this setup and I've never had this many problems!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello backinthelab,

 

If only Motion Sensor scenes do not work then, do you see Motion sensor status change in the Admin Console? If so - and if you look at Program Summary tab - do you see the associated program (if any) run (last runtime)?

 

Unfortunately with communication problems, it's usually a trial an error thing UNLESS you can think of anything that happened just prior. In your case, it was a power outage.

 

So, if I understand it correctly, you have already tried restoring motion sensor devices, correct?

 

And, finally, can you elaborate what you mean by:

Lastly, I've noticed that a fast on or fast off on the devices (associated with a 2420), do not respond at all programmatically.

 

With kind regards,

MIchel

[backinthelab]

The motion-activated lights each have a program to disable the Off program for the 2420's. This is through a Fast On or On of a switch in that room. The Kitchen, for example is programmed so that the Kitchen Island lights set to 75% when motion is detected. An ON command from the Kitchen Main or Kitchen Island switches should disable the program that would normally turn the lights off when the 2420 stops seeing motion and times out. This isn't happening.

 

I'm addition, the Upstairs Hall lights are in a scene with four switches as controllers. When one switch is turned on, the others usually do not follow. There is a motion sensor that is programmed to set the switch Upstairs Hall Main in the Upstairs Hall scene to 40%.

 

From the console, I can see the change in status from the sensors and switches, however, the programs are not changing from true to false or vice versa.

 

The devices I'm having problems with are all linked to a motion sensor programmatically. The programs don't seem to be responding for the Kitchen and Bath, the Scene isn't changing for the Upstairs Hall. The status of the devices, including the 2420, seem to be working from the console. I'm on my iPad right now but when I get in I will post the programs I have written, but I sincerely believe there is something else going on.

 

Another oddity of note, the Garage Door Sensor is programmed with the Elk M1 to speak "Garage door opened" whenever status is on. It's has been speaking the phrase 2-3 times in a row lately when true. The Elk doesn't contain any programs to do this, it's all from the ISY.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello backinthelab,

 

Please do the following:

1. Open Tools | Event Viewer, change level to 3

2. Go to one of the switches for which Fast On/Off no longer works and force Fast On or Fast Off

3. Check the Event Viewer and let me know if you see DFON or DFOF ... if not, please retry with regular on/off on the switch and let me know if you see DON or DOF

 

We'll address ELK issues once we get a handle on the main issue.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Tried both Kitchen Island and Kitchen Main switches, no response in event viewer, no status update in console. Devices did respond to console commands on and off. Tried Family Room A on 8-button KPL, both status and event viewer responded.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi backinthelab,

 

If you do not see traffic for those devices, then - and in all likelihood - they have lost their links to the PLM. Please right mouse click and restore one of them and let me know if you start getting status feedback.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Restored both, no change.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi backinthelab,

 

Thanks!

 

Now, this is getting a little mysterious. Can you please:

1. Go to Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table

2. Click on Start

3. Wait till the process is complete

4. Click on Count ... how many links do you have?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Michel,

 

I ran the PLM links check and it came up with 171 links. I tried the Event Viewer again with the Kitchen switches but no response. The switches ar responding to commands coming from the admin console, however. I also confirmed that the ISY is responding in the Event Viewer with a different device (8-button KPL in Family room).

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi backinthelab,

 

I think it's high time to schedule a call with our tech support team (link below) ... I am certain this back/forth on the forum is quite frustrating for you.

 

The fact that:

1. You are still not getting status feedback from your devices even though you have already restored them

2. You can communicate with those devices

3. You see status updates from other devices

 

Leads me to conclude:

1. Your KPL does not have any links in it (Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Link Table, Start, wait for completion, Compare)

2. Your KPL is defective

3. Something wrong with the signal

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[backinthelab]

Michel, I appreciate the help thus far and will call in to support as soon as I have some free time. That being said, I tried the "Device Links Table" on one of the suspect devices. It returned 9 links, but when I clicked "compare", the ISY shows a mismatch on the 9th. The ISY link reads "OFB8: with all zeroes following", the Device Link reads "OFB8: 00 1E 12.91.9A FF 1F 00". The exact same thing happened with the switch next to it, 9 links, mismatch on the last.

 

The house has been going poltergeist on me over recent weeks with lights turning on, not turning off (outside motion), and the Elk is repeating "Garage Door Open" 3-4 times every time I open the garage door. I've disabled most programs to try and quell this, however, it's still continuing. Again, I'll call in soon, hopefully Friday or, if you're not open, early next week.

[LeeG]

That last link record is the End of List record and is fine. The ISY Links Table display shows an all zero End Of List record. In the device itself only the first byte needs to be 00 to mark it as the End Of List record and that is all the ISY sets to 00 in the device. The remaining 7 bytes are left over from some other link record. They have no functional meaning (besides confusing folks).

 

For years the ISY Links Table display did not have an End of List record at all so the End of List record in the device always showed as a mismatch. Recently the ISY Links Table display was updated to show an all zero End of List record which is still confusing folks if the End of List record in the device is not all zeros (which it does not have to be).

[backinthelab]

Michel and others, thank you for your suggestions thus far. I still plan to call into tech support, however, I wanted run this by you and see what you think, first. I took advantage of Smarthome's black Friday sale and purchased a Signallinc and a dual-band PLM. I was thinking I would install these, thereby increasing communication quality and ruling out a defunct PLM. Some questions, though, first.

 

To ensure I'm not going to waste time, do you think I should pinpoint the current issues first, or, will a new PLM likely cure them?

 

In regard to the Admin Console, is there any way to export my list of programs in a TXT or CSV format? (I was considering wiping everything back to factory settings and rebuilding from there.)

 

Thanks again for your help and patience! It's been three years now since I installed my first switch and have never had problems of this magnitude!