Doorbell Trigger Options

[rvandersteen]

I've just really starting to learn all the nitty gritty things about the ISY and my Insteon 994. I've got a 994i and number Insteon Switchlincs, Motion Sensors, and TriggerLincs installed in our home. One of the things I've been really hoping to get up and running is a doorbell / lights flash setup.

 

Here's the workflow: Someone comes to our front door while we are downstairs in the basement. They ring the doorbell, but, being in the basement, we can't hear it. However, I've got some sort of trigger hooked up to my doorbell and when that trigger is fired, in addition to the existing doorbell mechanism making the "ding-dong" sound, all the lights in our entire house flip/flash to the opposite state than what they were in and then back to the state they were in, twice. I've already written the "Flip" program, where I store the state of each light in a variable to return it to the state it was in. That part works great. However, I need something to trigger the doorbell being pushed.

 

I'm aware that I might be able to use the Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc. However, I really don't have an outlet to plug the I/O Linc into, without running a wire across the hallway. What I'm really interested in doing is using a TriggerLinc to be the trigger. I know the TriggerLincs have external contacts where you can wire in your own magnetic switch (I think). If I could somehow use this device, it would communicate wirelessly with my ISY and I would not have any dangling wires running across the hallway. I actually tried connecting the wires from the external switch on my Triggerlinc to the existing doorbell mechanism (at the terminals on the sound box). When the doorbell was pressed, the Triggerlinc switched from Off/On, but then it just stayed off. The only way I could get it to work again was to press the set button.

 

Does anyone know if its possible to augment your existing doorbell and make it an Insteon trigger using the Triggerlinc? Are the other options that I haven't considered that might work for my situation? Is anyone else doing this with their doorbell?

 

Thanks in advance for any comments/replies!!

[LeeG]

It is a wonder the TriggerLinc works at all after applying 24v AC to terminals that are expecting a dry contact switch. A small 24v AC relay can be connected in parallel with the door bell. When the door bell button is pressed the relay turns On. The relay dry contacts are connected to the TriggerLinc external connections.

[Brian H]

I am using the Doorbell Kit. Though I had the individual parts and just followed the kits instructions.

Mine is in the cellar. At the bell transformers location. The ELK-930 is triggered by the bell currant and can be installed anywhere in the wiring for the bell. As long as the bells current flows through the ELK-930 bell sensor board.

In my case. I am using the common terminal of the transformer and both the back and front bell trigger the sensor.

 

I am triggering an X10 Powerflash module for a X10 chime module, but have also used the same ELK-930 and an I/OLInc to trigger Appliancelincs with CFLs on them.

[dstanley]

I've already written the "Flip" program, where I store the state of each light in a variable to return it to the state it was in. That part works great.

 

I would be thrilled to see examples of your programs - this is a project that I need to work on as well. I already have a Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc sitting here in a box waiting for me to get the time to put it all together.

 

Your 'Flip' program is exactly what I am looking for - I have a few select lights that I would like to flash - basement utility room, laundry, table lamp and shower light. I am thinking of having it maybe double flash on door bell and triple flash on telephone ring - something like that.

 

Thanks,

Dwight

[rvandersteen]

It is a wonder the TriggerLinc works at all after applying 24v AC to terminals that are expecting a dry contact switch. A small 24v AC relay can be connected in parallel with the door bell. When the door bell button is pressed the relay turns On. The relay dry contacts are connected to the TriggerLinc external connections.

 

Thanks LeeG, I think this is exactly what I needed to know. I've picked up one of these relays and hopefully this will all work, assuming I didn't fry the Triggerlinc in my previously failed attempt...

 

Here's what I ordered: http://www.amazon.com/ELK-PRODUCTS-ELK9 ... B004HNB4ZQ

[Brian H]

The ELK-912B is made for a DC voltage.

Doorbells are 24 volts AC most times.

The AC will cause the inductive spike diode across the relay coil. To short the input on every reversed polarity of the 24 volt AC being applied. May also damage the LED Indicator on the assembly. When set to 24 volts. It looks like a dropping resistor is used in series with the coil input. On 24 volts. The resistor may overheat. When set for 24 volts.

 

You maybe able to add a small bridge rectifier to the Input so the 24 AC is always the correct polarity on the Input of the ELK-912B. Though lumpy DC {unfiltered DC} may make the relay chatter. Guess a filter cap could also be included.

[rvandersteen]

I've already written the "Flip" program, where I store the state of each light in a variable to return it to the state it was in. That part works great.

 

I would be thrilled to see examples of your programs - this is a project that I need to work on as well. I already have a Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc sitting here in a box waiting for me to get the time to put it all together.

 

Your 'Flip' program is exactly what I am looking for - I have a few select lights that I would like to flash - basement utility room, laundry, table lamp and shower light. I am thinking of having it maybe double flash on door bell and triple flash on telephone ring - something like that.

 

Thanks,

Dwight

 

Dwight - I will try to post some program examples this weekend for you to take a look at.

[rvandersteen]

The ELK-912B is made for a DC voltage.

Doorbells are 24 volts AC most times.

The AC will cause the inductive spike diode across the relay coil. To short the input on every reversed polarity of the 24 volt AC being applied. May also damage the LED Indicator on the assembly. When set to 24 volts. It looks like a dropping resistor is used in series with the coil input. On 24 volts. The resistor may overheat. When set for 24 volts.

 

You maybe able to add a small bridge rectifier to the Input so the 24 AC is always the correct polarity on the Input of the ELK-912B. Though lumpy DC {unfiltered DC} may make the relay chatter. Guess a filter cap could also be included.

 

Is there an all in one 24v AC relay that I should be using? Can anyone point me in the right direction? I'm obviously not an electrical engineer. Nothing is jumping out at me when I search for them online (except for the incorrect ELK-912B).

 

Thanks in advance for help and continued comments!

[Brian H]

Many electronic supply houses have 24 volt AC relays.

I will search for some.

Something easy to connect? As many may have solder terminals.

 

I would also ask you to look at the bell transformer, probably in the cellar.

Mine is not 24 volts AC. It is 18 volts AC.

[rvandersteen]

Many electronic supply houses have 24 volt AC relays.

I will search for some.

Something easy to connect? As many may have solder terminals.

 

I would also ask you to look at the bell transformer, probably in the cellar.

Mine is not 24 volts AC. It is 18 volts AC.

 

Thanks Brian H!

 

I did trace my wiring back down to by basement and it's 24v AC. I will definitely need something easy to connect, as I would not be able to solder anything. I do have male/female flat crimping terminals. Thanks!

[apostolakisl]

Here are 2 of them with the bases.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-IDEC-R ... 43b5e6c4fb

[rvandersteen]

I've already written the "Flip" program, where I store the state of each light in a variable to return it to the state it was in. That part works great.

 

I would be thrilled to see examples of your programs - this is a project that I need to work on as well. I already have a Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc sitting here in a box waiting for me to get the time to put it all together.

 

Your 'Flip' program is exactly what I am looking for - I have a few select lights that I would like to flash - basement utility room, laundry, table lamp and shower light. I am thinking of having it maybe double flash on door bell and triple flash on telephone ring - something like that.

 

Thanks,

Dwight

 

Dwight - I will try to post some program examples this weekend for you to take a look at.

 

Dwight - I'll do my best to summarize the programs I have in place to do the "flipping" of the lights in my house. There may be a more efficient way of doing this, but I'm not a computer programmer and this is what I've come up with. It does work .

 

1. First thing I did was create an integer variable to store the devices state. For example: iKitchenBreakfastBarStatus.

2. Next, I created a program that sets this state variable to either 1 or 0, depending on whether the device's status was On or Off. To accommodate devices that may not be at 100%, I wrote the program to see if the status is greater than 1%. If you wanted to, you could create additional programs to store more specific levels of brightness/dim. I made a folder called 'States' to store all of these 'State' programs for each device.

 

Sample program:

***

If

Status 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' > 1%

 

Then

$iKitchenBreakfastBarStatus = 1

 

Else

$iKitchenBreakfastBarStatus = 0

***

 

3. Now that I have the current state of the device stored in an integer variable, I wrote the "Flip" program below, which, when called, does the flashing of the device:

 

***

If

$iKitchenBreakfastBarStatus is 0

 

Then

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast On

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast Off

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast On

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast Off

 

Else

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast Off

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast On

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast Off

Set 'Lights / Kitchen / KitchenBreakfastBar' Fast On

***

 

The above program will cause the device to flash on and off, or off and on, based upon it's current state, making sure to return the device to the state it was in before running the program. I have one of these "Flip" programs for each of my devices and I keep them in a single "Flip" folder.

 

4. Finally, I have a single "FLIP" program that will run based up the trigger of my choice (doorbell rings). It simply calls all of the "Flip" programs for each device (from step 3). Right now, I have the trigger set to a motion sensor on my front porch. The end plan is to have the trigger ('If' statement) of the program, be someone ringing my doorbell.

 

***

If

Status 'Motion Sensors / FrontPorchMotionSensor-Sensor' is On

 

Then

Run Program 'StairHallwayUpperFlip' (If)

Run Program 'BasementMain1Flip' (If)

Run Program 'KitchenBreakfastBarFlip' (If)

Run Program 'BasementSconceFlip' (If)

Run Program 'KitchenMain2Flip' (If)

Run Program 'MasterBedroomLampFlip' (If)

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

***

 

Summary:

As I mentioned above, there may be a more elegant way to do this, but this seems to work. One caveat is that all the lights that are part of this 'Flip' do not turn off/on at the same time. There is a delay from when each program is run from the main 'FLIP' program. So the experience is that one light starts to flash, then a second later the next, and so on. It's not ideal, but it does meet the requirement of a silent alert.

 

I hope this helps you implement something similar with your ISY system!

[Brian H]

If it is 24 volts AC. The relays in the EBay link would work and they have the socket with connection screws.

[ELA]

A word of caution on Relay usage.

 

If you use a relays contacts to drive a low current load you should select a relay with low current rated contacts. (often gold plated)

 

The ebay relay pointed to is a 10A rated contact. This is not a proper relay to drive a small milliamp/microamp load like the inputs to Some Insteon devices...

 

While you may get away with it you should not be surprised if it begins to fail over time since the relay contacts are not being "wiped cleaned" by sufficient switching current.

 

In addition the relays on ebay appeared to be used. If they were used for a higher current load previously you are even more likely to encounter problems then using them to switch a very light load.

 

Here is a link to an example of the same manufactures model to switch low current loads:

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RJ22_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RYRM_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

 

When you specifically search for a 24VAC coil and low current contacts the options are much more limited.

I took some time to find one here ( available at Mouser) that has some interesting specifications under the technical data (contact side) that speaks to how a low current relays ratings change if miss used:

 

http://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=2967112&library=usen&tab=1

[Brian H]

ELA made a good point.

I found the data sheet on the relay.

It has a minimum recommended load of 24 volts DC, 30 mA; 5 volts DC, 100 mA.

[apostolakisl]

A word of caution on Relay usage.

 

If you use a relays contacts to drive a low current load you should select a relay with low current rated contacts. (often gold plated)

 

The ebay relay pointed to is a 10A rated contact. This is not a proper relay to drive a small milliamp/microamp load like the inputs to Some Insteon devices...

 

While you may get away with it you should not be surprised if it begins to fail over time since the relay contacts are not being "wiped cleaned" by sufficient switching current.

 

In addition the relays on ebay appeared to be used. If they were used for a higher current load previously you are even more likely to encounter problems then using them to switch a very light load.

 

Here is a link to an example of the same manufactures model to switch low current loads:

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RJ22_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RYRM_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

 

When you specifically search for a 24VAC coil and low current contacts the options are much more limited.

I took some time to find one here ( available at Mouser) that has some interesting specifications under the technical data (contact side) that speaks to how a low current relays ratings change if miss used:

 

http://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=2967112&library=usen&tab=1

 

Yes, but for $10 total (shipping included) you are getting 2 relays with multi throws each (meaning you have lots of contacts to choose from). And it is just a doorbell. If it should stop working, it's not like your fire alarm is going to stop working. I really really really doubt those fail (assuming the coils are good as stated by seller).

[ELA]

A word of caution on Relay usage.

 

If you use a relays contacts to drive a low current load you should select a relay with low current rated contacts. (often gold plated)

 

The ebay relay pointed to is a 10A rated contact. This is not a proper relay to drive a small milliamp/microamp load like the inputs to Some Insteon devices...

 

While you may get away with it you should not be surprised if it begins to fail over time since the relay contacts are not being "wiped cleaned" by sufficient switching current.

 

In addition the relays on ebay appeared to be used. If they were used for a higher current load previously you are even more likely to encounter problems then using them to switch a very light load.

 

Here is a link to an example of the same manufactures model to switch low current loads:

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RJ22_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RYRM_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

 

When you specifically search for a 24VAC coil and low current contacts the options are much more limited.

I took some time to find one here ( available at Mouser) that has some interesting specifications under the technical data (contact side) that speaks to how a low current relays ratings change if miss used:

 

http://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=2967112&library=usen&tab=1

 

Yes, but for $10 total (shipping included) you are getting 2 relays with multi throws each (meaning you have lots of contacts to choose from). And it is just a doorbell. If it should stop working, it's not like your fire alarm is going to stop working. I really really really doubt those fail (assuming the coils are good as stated by seller).

 

 

Feel free to really really really doubt it. I am only speaking from 35+ years of experience. Many of which were troubleshooting and redesigning miss applied relay applications.

Re-specified a low current contact for a number of applications using that very IDEC relay in a low current application that intermittently failed for the reasons stated.

 

As was stated earlier: you may get a way with it. Or as you said if you are willing to rewire or replace from time to time.

[apostolakisl]

A word of caution on Relay usage.

 

If you use a relays contacts to drive a low current load you should select a relay with low current rated contacts. (often gold plated)

 

The ebay relay pointed to is a 10A rated contact. This is not a proper relay to drive a small milliamp/microamp load like the inputs to Some Insteon devices...

 

While you may get away with it you should not be surprised if it begins to fail over time since the relay contacts are not being "wiped cleaned" by sufficient switching current.

 

In addition the relays on ebay appeared to be used. If they were used for a higher current load previously you are even more likely to encounter problems then using them to switch a very light load.

 

Here is a link to an example of the same manufactures model to switch low current loads:

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RJ22_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RYRM_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets

 

 

When you specifically search for a 24VAC coil and low current contacts the options are much more limited.

I took some time to find one here ( available at Mouser) that has some interesting specifications under the technical data (contact side) that speaks to how a low current relays ratings change if miss used:

 

http://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=2967112&library=usen&tab=1

 

Yes, but for $10 total (shipping included) you are getting 2 relays with multi throws each (meaning you have lots of contacts to choose from). And it is just a doorbell. If it should stop working, it's not like your fire alarm is going to stop working. I really really really doubt those fail (assuming the coils are good as stated by seller).

 

 

Feel free to really really really doubt it. I am only speaking from 35+ years of experience. Many of which were troubleshooting and redesigning miss applied relay applications.

Re-specified a low current contact for a number of applications using that very IDEC relay in a low current application that intermittently failed for the reasons stated.

 

As was stated earlier: you may get a way with it. Or as you said if you are willing to rewire or replace from time to time.

 

Take this for example.

 

http://www.elkproducts.com/product-cata ... elay-board

 

These are commonly used 10amp contact rated that are almost always used for milliamp applications.

 

It is a 5 minute install, so R and R not a big deal. But I promise, no R and R will be needed, those will work.

[ELA]

apostolakisl,

Just because a relay may be commonly miss used does not make it right nor a good design decision.

 

Does your ELK reference specify a minimum current? If so and a person adheres to that specification all is well.

 

It is often the problem that the minimum is not specified. When not specified it may or may not work. The lower the current the more likely you are to have issues.

 

Simply stating milli-amps is not enough. As Brian pointed out 30 -100ma may be fine, where as 100 micro-amps to 1 milli-amps may not be.

 

I am not doubting your experience within limited applications. Just giving you some real world, based on thousands of installs, reliable design criteria.

[apostolakisl]

apostolakisl,

Just because a relay may be commonly miss used does not make it right nor a good design decision.

 

Does your ELK reference specify a minimum current? If so and a person adheres to that specification all is well.

 

It is often the problem that the minimum is not specified. When not specified it may or may not work. The lower the current the more likely you are to have issues.

 

Simply stating milli-amps is not enough. As Brian pointed out 30 -100ma may be fine, where as 100 micro-amps to 1 milli-amps may not be.

 

I am not doubting your experience within limited applications. Just giving you some real world, based on thousands of installs, reliable design criteria.

 

Real world experience I think would favor the Insteon devices as the most likely point of failure in this setup. Either do to failure of the device itself, or because of a failed comm. Which is fine, it's only a doorbell, and an auxiliary one at that. And the device isn't on the moon, it's in his basement, not a client across town costing you two hours of time on a service call. So if I were a pro installer who had to service it for free and could pass on the cost of a higher end device to start with, I would probably do it that way.

 

But $10, it's chump change, and it is right there, a click on ebay and another on paypal and it's at your door, and it has the base with screw down terminals all right there ready to go so easy, and then you get a second one to stick in the drawer for that random future job.

[Xathros]

I've been watching this thread and wondering why all the fuss over a relay. I believe we already have a doorbell button, an IOLinc a bell/chime and a transformer. Maybe we could just reorganize a bit and have the button connect to the IOLinc input only and the relay output of the IOLinc close the 24VAC circuit from the transformer to the bell/chime. Set the IOLinc options to "Relay follows input".

 

Advantage: No extra relay needed, Insteon control of the bell/chime for other audio notification purposes and Insteon notification of the button press.

 

Other than a possible minor rewire, am I missing something here?

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

Two things to consider if using the existing door bell button to control the I/O Linc Sensor. If it is a lighted door bell button either remove the bulb or get a new unlighted button. It may be useful to get a new unlighted button anyway if the door bell button has been in use for some time. It has been switching 24v AC at relatively high current flows compared to the milli-amp or micro-amp when shunting Sensor to Gnd. Also being outdoors the contacts may not be able to switch the 5v DC to Gnd reliably.

 

It is certainly worth trying as it would eliminate the extra relay hardware altogether.

[ELA]

I based my input on the O.P. that stated:

 

"I'm aware that I might be able to use the Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc. However, I really don't have an outlet to plug the I/O Linc into, without running a wire across the hallway. What I'm really interested in doing is using a TriggerLinc to be the trigger. "

 

Triggerlinc remote sensor current is 10 micro-amps. A 10 amp contact is totally inappropriate.

[dstanley]

Thank you for posting your FLIP programs ... Gives me a good starting point!

 

Dwight

[kevkmartin]

I made my own doorbell button using a blank stainless steel switch cover, and a lighted arcade LED.

 

I use the IO Linc, both to indicate to the ISY that the button is pressed , AND to light he LED at night.

 

It works great!

 

 

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