KPL 1.65 Request Failed

[Michel Kohanim]

Drew,

 

We are getting somewhere!

 

The fact that you could create the scene without any problems indicates:

1. PLM to device communications OK

2. Device to device communications OK

 

The fact that your KPLs do not respond to one another or when you get blinking KPL indicates:

1. There's at least one device that your KPL has problems communicating with

2. That device may be the same device that cannot control the KPL button

 

Next step:

Take the controller which does not control the KPL button out of the scene and see if the KPL still blinks. If not, then that device is the culprit ... do a factory reset on it and then restore it in ISY (right mouse click, Restore Device)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

I've put everything into a scene with no problems at all.

(usually the command prompt times out, is this fine?)

I do find that I get some issues like if I have two controllers in a scene, shutting off the one controller doesn't shut off the LED on the KPL controller.

That and KPL leds flash sometimes but not others.

 

What's the next step?

 

Drew

[andrew77]

That was a different scene I was telling you about.It has three controller (One KPL button H, A remotelinc, and the SWL that the light is on.

 

Here's the frustrating part.

 

Now I don't get flashing.

 

It works fine.

(I know that shouldn't be frustrating but when I want to to fail it doesn't then later on it does.)

 

What can I do now?

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Drew,

 

I am sure it's very frustrating!

 

What you should do is to figure out "what changes in your environment" when you start experiencing these problems.

 

For instance:

Plasma TV turned on

Washer/Dryer/Hair Dryer turned on

CFL light turned on/off

Phone charger turned on/off

 

When you narrow it down to a section of the house, then you can add filterlincs to the devices that may have caused the noise.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

That was a different scene I was telling you about.It has three controller (One KPL button H, A remotelinc, and the SWL that the light is on.

 

Here's the frustrating part.

 

Now I don't get flashing.

 

It works fine.

(I know that shouldn't be frustrating but when I want to to fail it doesn't then later on it does.)

 

What can I do now?

 

Drew

[andrew77]

I removed the two KPLs and am going to relink them as the scenes and the loads are all wrong. I tried to delete a few programs from the ISY GUI as they had remotelinc buttons as responders (I thought that couldn't happen)

I got the usual Request Failed but nothing is different in the house at all. It's mid day I'm the only one here, the furnace is and has been shut off, I only wish I had a plasma. There's nothing in the house that's on.

 

Now the ISY just keeps a SYSTEM BUSY bar going and going.

I had to CTL ALT DEL to kill IE and when I booted the GUI back up it started again.

I had to power down the ISY and then start it again.

I'm afraid to try to get rid of the program.

Right now I'm relinking the KPLs.

Has anyone else had this much trouble? I must look like an idiot.

 

I'm not having very good luck with this,

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Drew,

 

What do you mean by Programs? Are you talking about scenes? Is your ISY accessible remotely? If so, I'd like to log in ...

 

There are only 3 variables in this installation:

ISY

PLM

INSTEON Network

 

The problem is that we have yet to figure out which one is causing the problem. Anyway, if you have remote access enabled, I'd like to see what you have.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I removed the two KPLs and am going to relink them as the scenes and the loads are all wrong. I tried to delete a few programs from the ISY GUI as they had remotelinc buttons as responders (I thought that couldn't happen)

I got the usual Request Failed but nothing is different in the house at all. It's mid day I'm the only one here, the furnace is and has been shut off, I only wish I had a plasma. There's nothing in the house that's on.

 

Now the ISY just keeps a SYSTEM BUSY bar going and going.

I had to CTL ALT DEL to kill IE and when I booted the GUI back up it started again.

I had to power down the ISY and then start it again.

I'm afraid to try to get rid of the program.

 

I'm not having very good luck with this,

 

Drew

[andrew77]

How do I link to you with Remote Access?

I've punched up Remote Assistance. I seem to need an e-mail address.

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Drew,

 

On your Admin Console, choose File->Enabled Internet Access. If that fails, then try http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=635 .

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

How do I link to you with Remote Access?

I've punched up Remote Assistance. I seem to need an e-mail address.

 

Drew

[andrew77]

It said internet access enabled. Now what?

As am aside, when I query the two KPLs it tells me it can't communicate with the KPL that gave me the problem in the ifrst place (even though it's in a new spot)

 

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Drew,

 

Go to help->About and write down the URL for Internet Access, and email it to me at tech@universal-devices.com.

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

 

It said internet access enabled. Now what?

 

Drew

[andrew77]

Hi Michel;

 

I have to go to work now.

 

I can check the forum from there.

I'll leave my computer on and access enabled.

 

Hopefully something will come out of this.

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Drew,

 

I haven't yet received your URL ... can you email it to me + your userid/password.

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel;

 

I have to go to work now.

 

I can check the forum from there.

I'll leave my computer on and access enabled.

 

Hopefully something will come out of this.

 

Drew

[andrew77]

I sent it to you again

at

tech@universal-devices.com

Subject it

 

For Michel

 

Drew

[andrew77]

I'm not sure what you mean by two different phases.

I have to have my access points on two different sides of my electrical panel, right?

I believe I have that but sometimes one of the Access Points flickers (the other one never does)

Is that telling of something?

I'll move the ISY into another room tomorrow when I have more time (work calls again)

 

Drew

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Drew,

 

Yes. If the other AccessPoint never flickers it means that it never sees any traffic ... that surely doesn't sound right.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I'm not sure what you mean by two different phases.

I have to have my access points on two different sides of my electrical panel, right?

I believe I have that but sometimes one of the Access Points flickers (the other one never does)

Is that telling of something?

I'll move the ISY into another room tomorrow when I have more time (work calls again)

 

Drew

[andrew77]

So i should move the access point.

I'll try that tomorrow.

 

And am I right in that one access point should be on the left side of my breaker panel and the other access point should be plugged into an outlet on the right side?

 

The one Accesspoint may not see much if any traffic because on the left side of my electrical panel there are very few breakers that are for light switches or outlets.

8 of the breakers are for 4 split receptacles in my kitchen. The rest of the breakers are water pump, dryer, etc...

 

Drew

[mcrean]

I have to have my access points on two different sides of my electrical panel, right?

 

I was wondering if that is what you were asking earlier.

 

And am I right in that one access point should be on the left side of my breaker panel and the other access point should be plugged into an outlet on the right side?

 

The answer is no. Most houses are wired with 2 legs of 120v wiih a neutral (return). Both legs added together power things like an electric dryer and large air conditioner at 240v. THEY MAY NOT PHYSICALLY BE THE LEFT OR RIGHT SIDE BREAKERS IN THE PANEL. In fact usually it is every other breaker. Look at how your 240v appliance breakers are located, usually they are right next to each other. If you have different size breakers, then the space for one breaker is split between 2 smaller ones. So, try to get the access points plugged in on one breaker "space" and the other in a space next to it. Or an Even/Odd type thing, like breaker 3 for one and 8 for the other.

 

 

The purpose of the Access Points is to bridge the Insteon signal from one leg of the 120v to the other (since Insteon devices are connected to one leg or the other, not both). Without it, you will experience communication problems.

 

My suggestion is leave one Access point where it is (the one that flickers) and move the other one somewhere else, say the living room or a bedroom and see if your communication improves, if not, try again.

 

Make sense? Whew. Sorry such a long post.

[MikeB]

Like Michael said.

 

Also, if you follow the procedure in the AccessPoint's quickstart guide, it should help ensure you have them on opposite legs.

[IndyMike]

If your problem accesspoint "never" blinks it may have locked up due to a surge or noise on the line. It should flash if is sees Insteon powerline traffic or RF communication from your other accesspoint. Since your description indicates the units are physically close your accesspoint should be at least seeing RF.

 

Try resetting by unplugging the unit for 10 seconds and then re-plugging. If you still get no response you may have an electrical leg with excessive noise (UPS etc).

 

Try plugging into the same electrical circuit as your other accesspoint. If you still see no activity (with the other accesspoint showing activity) you may have a faulty unit.

 

IM

[andrew77]

Both access points do flicker when I use insteon stuff (I had to get the remotelinc and use it while watching the one accesspoint as it's in a spot where you can't see it from a SWl or KPL, etc...)

 

I do believe they are on opposite legs of the power (I've gone through the set up for them a few times to make sure)

 

Are there better outlets or worse outlets to plug them into?

I have one downstairs at one end of the house and the other upstairs at the other end thinking that would give me the best coverage. My ISY is at the opposite end of the downstairs.

 

I there a better way to place these? Do they have to be at opposite ends of the house? (I think I read that the remotelinc likes them that way.)

 

If it helps at all, I have 200 amp service to the house.

 

The access points are on breakers 1 and 20.

 

I also have an additional 200 amp service going to the barn. I can affect insteon stuff on both services even though they are separate. Would that give me an issue?

Would it help to make a list of what insteon stuff I have and which breakers they are on?

I don't know if this helps but when I go to put devices in a scene the devices that I have no problem with enter almost right away(the % staus bar jumps 6% at a time) and the devices that give me grief crawl at 1% at a time, usually going through the percentage three or four times before failing.

 

I greatly appreciate everyone's help here. I'm trying to mention as much about the system as I can in hopes that someone pops up with the answer that makes this work.

 

Drew

[MikeB]

I there a better way to place these? Do they have to be at opposite ends of the house? (I think I read that the remotelinc likes them that way.)

 

The AccessPoints serve 2 purposes:

 

1 - They bridge signals between the 2 legs of power in your home so that signals from 1 leg will make it to the other leg. Physical location within the home shouldn't make a difference, but most people have the best luck when locating them as close to the electrical panel as possible - close meaning the least amount if romex between your panel and the AccessPoints. Of course, this might be tough to determine in a finished home with no exposed romex to see.

 

2 - They receive signals from RF devices (RemoteLinc, Thermostat Adapter) and broadcast them onto the powerline (and vice versa). For this purpose, you want to choose a location that will provide good RF range to all areas of your home (more than likely you'd place them at opposite sides of your home, like you suggested).

[IndyMike]

Drew,

 

To start, let's put the issue of phases to bed. The picture below is from one of my sub-panels. As shown, the phase inputs are labeled "A" and "B". Phase A feeds alternating breaker locations on the left and right side (Left side locations 1,5,9,13 - Right side 2,6,10,14).

 

 

If your panel is label the same, you are correct that breakers 1 and 20 are on opposite phases.

 

 

Both access points do flicker when I use insteon stuff (I had to get the remotelinc and use it while watching the one accesspoint as it's in a spot where you can't see it from a SWl or KPL, etc...).

 

I do believe they are on opposite legs of the power (I've gone through the set up for them a few times to make sure)

 

Are there better outlets or worse outlets to plug them into?

I have one downstairs at one end of the house and the other upstairs at the other end thinking that would give me the best coverage. My ISY is at the opposite end of the downstairs.

 

1) Maybe I misunderstood your previous post. I thought these were located near your breaker panel. Have you moved them?

2) The activity that you see when you use your Remotelinc indicates that the Accesspoint is not locked up. It does not mean that it can hear the RF communication from the second accesspoint (loss of coupling across phases) or that it can "hear" Insteon poweline communication. Have a family member/friend help by activating various switches in your house. Note whether you see activity on the accesspoint.

3) Where is your PLM/ISY located? Is it close to your electrical panel?

4) Accespoint placement varies by installation and user requirements (as Mike B posted). The following has worked for me:

• A) PLM/ISY on a dedicated circuit at the electrical panel.
  Passive coupler installed at the electrical panel.
  C) Accesspoints installed on the second floor (most remote point from the PLM/ISY). I don't (as yet) have a remotelinc. Your requirements may be different.

 

I also have an additional 200 amp service going to the barn. I can affect insteon stuff on both services even though they are separate. Would that give me an issue?

 

1) When you state "separate services", do you mean two separate feeds from the Power Co. transformer (unlikely), or a separate panel that is connected to the feed to your main panel?

 

2) Whether a separate feed from the transformer of not, the fact that you can communicate with devices in your barn indicates that you have good Insteon signal levels on some devices. How far away is the barn?

 

Would it help to make a list of what insteon stuff I have and which breakers they are on?

I don't know if this helps but when I go to put devices in a scene the devices that I have no problem with enter almost right away(the % staus bar jumps 6% at a time) and the devices that give me grief crawl at 1% at a time, usually going through the percentage three or four times before failing.

 

Actually, what would really help is a map of all of your installed devices. Previously, Michel referred to your Insteon "network". Your house wiring is exactly that. A network that consists of Insteon devices, fan motors, CFL's, refrigerators, etc. These devices can be both signal absorbers or noise generators, both of which can affect powerline communication. It would help if we knew what devices were on your "problem" circuits as well as your PLM/ISY circuit. You can accomplish this by disabling breakers and then "surveying" which devices have lost power. It's a somewhat painfull process, but it can pay huge dividends down the road if you encounter a new problem.

 

You can use your Accesspoint as a troubleshooting tool. Disconnect one accesspoint to prevent RF communication. Walk the second unit around the house. Plug it in and note whether it detects powerline activity from your various switches (you'll need to plug into the same phase as the tranmitting device). If you find an area where you don't see activity, you're either on the opposite phase, or you've found a "dead" zone (noise or signal absorber). Inspect that circuit and determine which is involved.

 

I greatly appreciate everyone's help here. I'm trying to mention as much about the system as I can in hopes that someone pops up with the answer that makes this work.

 

Constructive criticism time (I can get away with this because I'm old, insensitive, and in no way associated with UDI) - I apologize up front if you answered these questions "offline".

 

Many of the questions that I've posed above have been asked previously in this thread (some by UDI themselves). Please try to address these questions when they are posted. It's extremely rare to see the high level of product involvement that UDI has on this forum. These people are the experts on the product and they are "engaged". Listen to them and answer their questions.

 

IM

 

Edit - 3-30-08 : right side breaker locations incorrect.

[yardman 49]

Hello Drew:

 

I replied to your private message to me. But I'm also putting a link in here that points to the Communication Troubleshooting section of the Wiki. I wrote the Insteon section in there. It'a really a summary of the techniques that I found that helped my situation and that of others.

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/ ... leshooting

 

I'm kind of rushing around right now trying to get things ready for Monday, so if someone else has already posted this to this thread, my apologies. You have probably also seen this information. But others that have been reading this thread may not have.

 

I'll put on my thinking cap over the next week and see if I can come up with other ideas.

 

Best wishes,

[andrew77]

RESOLUTION!!!

My network has been stable for the past few days now so I hope I'm not jinxing it by posting.

 

First off, as everyone knows, Michel has the patience of a chopping block.

He kept working away even when i was at the point of ripping the KPLs out of the walls.

Yardman, IndyMike, Thanks for your input as well.

 

This is what I've found out (at least in my house)

 

Not all outlets are created the same. Even though I had my accesspoints on different phases I got communication errors constantly. I moved them everywhere. I shut off every other breaker to the house. I would move KPLs and SWL to different areas of the house and new problems would arise with insteon devices that were until then perfectly fine.

 

I eventually put an accesspoint on an outlet that has one foot of romex to the breaker (the closer to the panel the better for one of them)

 

Them I put the other in an outlet that I was pretty sure was the closest to the most problematic KPL and SWL (I'm doing renos so either I've rewired most of them or torn drywall down and visualized the romex in the walls)

When I say closest I mean the shortest amount of romex from the accesspoint outlet and the KPL/SWL. Not necessarily the closest on geographical terms. I found that some outlets that seemed to be right under Switch boxes were actually wired on different lines coming from the basement, nowhere near the switch at all as far as length of romex between the two.

 

I also went through the whole house with a Fluke VoltAlert tester and mapped out every outlet and switch and printed up an Excel spreadshhet showing me exactly what was on which breaker, etc... it took a while of running up and down the stairs but it's been very valuable.

 

I at one point was nervous that the ISY wouldn't work for me for some reason. The previous owner did a few hideous fix it jobs in the house (like burying live wires in the walls when he removed a wall sconce, YIKES, gmurch found that one, a fellow ISY user.

 

All i can say (after this novel) is if you have issues, make an outlet coming right of the panel in your electrical room and put one accesspoint there. You can put the other accesspoint where it needs to be (the closest to the problematic devices) and then choose the other phase to put the new outlet on.

 

Again, sorry for the long post.

And thanks to Michel, Darrel, and everyone who helped.

 

Drew

[andrew77]

Okay so maybe I spoke too soon.

I'm getting Comm errors in places I didn't before.

 

I've got two extra accesspoints (borrowed from a friend) and I'm trying them in different spots.

 

When i press a KPL button to trigger a scene it flashes and not all the lights come on (I assume that's because of a comm error as well. Does this mean that the issue is related to the PLM or the lights themselves ie noise, or both.)

I've tried the two extra accesspoints on different phases and even plugged into the back of the PLM.

 

Any more ideas?

 

Drew

 

OUt of the blue my ISY GUI just asked me to reauthenticate my lighting even though I've been looged in for a bit now.

Is that telling of something?

Is it possible that after all this it may be the PLM like Michel suggested?

I'm not sure how to test the PLM.

[yardman 49]

Hello Drew:

 

Good work, you're making progress!

 

I know that it can get discouraging...it did for me for a while. It seems as though I'd make 2 steps forward, and 1 step backwards. And just like you're experiencing, I'd think that I had everything fixed, only to have problems reappear.

 

It could be that you are experiencing interference from some devices. Do you have any halogen lighting? Their transformers can create interference on your lines. Some CFLs, also, from what I understand. Leviton makes some filters that can be mounted internally in some such fixtures (called a Noise Block on the SH site).

 

On the flip side, could you have any "signal sucks" around? These are devices that don't necessarily create noise on the powerline, but rather tend to attenuate powerline control signals. Laptop power supplies are once source of this, as well as other modern electronic devices (some televisions, audio visual equiment, computers, etc). I ended up putting FilterLincs on many devices in my house to cure problems from this.

 

I even had situations where everything would be fixed, only to have some new problems start. I'd then discover that someone had plugged in a device directly into the wall rather than through a Filterlinc.

 

It would indeed be wonderful if the PLM would get "fixed" by SH such that these problems would go away. The PLMs seem to be improving in various areas, but this seems to be the remaining weak spot. Everyone here would love it if the PLM finally was as robust in its communication as the Insteon switches themselves.

 

However, in your situation, you seem to have problems within scenes that you've created (some devices responding to a controller, but other devices not), which seems to indicate issues between Insteon devices, not just between the PLM and the devices. If I understand this correctly, then that tells me that the problem is more serious than just PLM comm errors; but rather an issue with the entire network. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

 

 

Best wishes,