Goose66 Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 I have two 8-key keypads (2486D v.36) that use to work just fine, but now the ISY 99/994i cannot update them. This happened a couple of years ago -- as I added more Insteon devices in the network, the performance and stability of my Insteon communications went majorly downhill. This hasn't really been a problem, though, because they function just fine. The ISY can hear the keypresses and the keypads respond just fine to all scenes -- it's just that the ISY cannot talk to them well enough to update them so it always thinks they are "out-of-communication." I recently replaced my motion detectors outside with updated models. Now, I need to reprogram both these keypads to put the newer motion detectors in the scenes. Any ideas on how to temporarilly restore communication to these keypads (short of taking them out of the j-boxes and hard-wiring them to the PLM) so that I can get them reprogrammed with the new motion detectors?
Michel Kohanim Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Hi kingwr, It is possible to remove the load from one of them (hopefully you can just unscrew some light bulbs) and see whether or not there are any improvements? With kind regards, Michel
Xathros Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 Any ideas on how to temporarilly restore communication to these keypads (short of taking them out of the j-boxes and hard-wiring them to the PLM) so that I can get them reprogrammed with the new motion detectors? Put the PLM on a long extension cord and plug it into the affected circuit for the updates. -Xathros
Goose66 Posted March 25, 2013 Author Posted March 25, 2013 This would be easier than unscrewing light bulbs. How far can the PLM be from the ISY 994i on a cat 5e cable (and not supplying power).
Xathros Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 This would be easier than unscrewing light bulbs. How far can the PLM be from the ISY 994i on a cat 5e cable (and not supplying power). 50' is a generally accepted maximum for a serial interface but recommended is far less. Mine is 10'. You can however move the ISY with the PLM keeping them together and extend the ethernet uplink much further. BUT, I think you misunderstood my suggestion. What I meant was: Use an AC extension cord. Unplug the PLM from power and plug it into the extension cord then plug the other end of the extension cord into an outlet on the same circuit as the problem KPL(s) for the duration of the reprogramming. -Xathros
Goose66 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Posted March 26, 2013 That worked...kind of. I ran an extension cord to a garage plug, and that allowed the ISY to access and write updates to both keypads, even though the keypads are on different circuits. I then plugged the extension cord into a downstairs hall outlet that is on the same circuit as two new 2477Ds I am trying to add to my system (see my other post). This did not allow the ISY to talk to the 2477Ds that are on that same circuit. There just seems to be neither rhyme nor reason to how Insteon communications function and in what scenarios they are reliable or not. This could have been something as subtle as my dishwasher running, or the satellite STB in standby instead of on, or one of the kids turning on the florescent lights in their closet. There is no way to know and no way to debug the system. I have a 4800 square foot house with 50-60 breakers in two panels supplying power to hundreds of devices connected to wall warts, surge suppressors, UPSes, and power strips. Should I be spending any more time or money on Insteon, or is it just not capable of performing in an environment such as mine?
LeeG Posted March 26, 2013 Posted March 26, 2013 You have three choices, live with the problems, diagnosis the problems or remove Insteon. Obviously your level of frustration is high at the moment. Perhaps sit on it for a few weeks and see if it is something that can be lived with the way it is. If not then the choice is pretty simple, diagnosis the issues or remove Insteon. I have some problems because much of install in the main house is old I1 devices that do not repeat I2 extended commands. Cannot replace the old ICONs with new ones as the line has been discontinued. Cannot replace the ICONs with SwitchLincs because Smarthome vision of White does not match anything else White in the house. I am in the process of removing Insteon from all non-essential areas. I would like to maintain remote control/monitor of detached garage and a few other things. This requires moving to some other protocol which is difficult at present with the limited types of devices in other protocols. Turns out knowing the right thing to do is easy. Admitting it to one’s self and them implementing is the hard part. Whether you chose to stay with Insteon and diagnosis the problems I wish you luck in whatever direction to take. Lots a good folks here that will help with the analysis if you are willing to put in the time and effort on your end. And it will take lots of time and effort on your end.
Goose66 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Posted March 26, 2013 There is just no way to diagnose it, because no behavior is predictable enough to draw any conclusion. I can trip a breaker to my washing machine, and something may start working. Try the same thing the next night, and no good. There are too many variables to deal with. If there was some way to measure PLM or device signal strength at individual outlets, or measure noise while operating different devices, that would be different. But the only way I have seen to do this is to buy (and learn to operate) an occilliscope, which is a ridiculous level of sophistication to go to diagnose what is supposed to be a consumer product. For the most part, the basic Insteon functionality works pretty good. Motion detectors turn on lights, keypads control other deices, etc. My primary problem is the ISY/PLM doesn't seem to want to talk to half my devices. For example, if I try and add the new 2477Ds, I get "Cannot determine Insteon Engine" from the ISY. I was told above this is because the ISY/PLM cannot communicate with them. Yet if I operate the newly installed and manually linked 2477Ds, their activity shows up in the ISY's logs and event viewer. Even plugging the PLM into an outlet on the circuit didn't resolve it. There's just too much complexity and not enough transparency into what is actually supposed to be happening in all this. Makes me long for X10, while just as unreliable, was much easier to understand the communication and diagnose problems.
jrini Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 You mentioned florescent lights in one of your posts. Florescent lights are notoriously noisy. Another source of noise that is becoming prevalent in the US are smart meters. Many installations of X10s are also having problems with noise on the power lines. Speaking as electrical engineer, I was one during the space race; I would suggest you try some line filters. SmartHome has many on their web site. The problem is causing new solutions to be offered as well. I have no idea whose web site this URL belongs to (http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm) but it sure demonstrates the growing prevalence of a power line noise problem.
arw01 Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 I saw a post about a new smarthome device for testing the powerline, perhaps investing in one would be wise. Also, UDI mentioned for diagnostics are on their road map, perhaps even supporting this new Insteon testing device. Do you happen to have any V.35 DIMMERS on your system?
Goose66 Posted March 27, 2013 Author Posted March 27, 2013 I assume you are talking about the 2993. That's no better than moving your PLM around on an extension cord and sending repeated messages from your ISY. What's need is a plugin device that can show line noise in the Insteon band, SNR of received signals, packet counts and quality or validity of received signals, and send signals. i had such a device for X10 and it was an excellent diagnostic tool. Today i would think it would be an iPhone app with a portable plm with USB port. It would be nice if the ISY would show and/or log this information as well, and even produce network data such as hops and (one can dream) routing plans.
oberkc Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 My primary problem is the ISY/PLM doesn't seem to want to talk to half my devices. Based on advice given to me when I was going through my communication problems, I installed a dedicated circuit, just for the PLM (I have since included a access point and keypad on that circuit, as well. The acccess point is very near the breaker panel). Given the importance of communication with the PLM, I felt the effort to be worth it. I assume you have tried moving the PLM to other circuits, to see if that solves your problem. Like you, I would very much like having a tool which could somehow quantify the communication environment, compare it over time, and as I add new gadgets and appliances. I can trip a breaker to my washing machine, and something may start working. Try the same thing the next night, and no good. There are too many variables to deal with. One of the conclusions that I have reached is that communication problems don't always have a single cause. In your case, your problems MAY be a combination of washing machine AND something else or multiple something elses. I took the approach that ANY time I saw a single instance where unplugging something helped (even if not always), I filtered it. Period. Then, if problems persisted, I continued searching until I found the next device that, when unplugged, insteon improved. I then filtered that device. Eventually, mine worked and has continued to work. I currently have filters on a hot-water tank (on-demand), two (of nine) TVs, audio system, and all UPS/surge suppressors. I think I have a half-dozen in total. A couple hundred dollars worth of filters was worth it for me. It has been several years since I have even worried about communication problems, despite the continue addition of new cell phone chargers, tablets, power supplies, LED and CFL light bulbs, and computers.
YvanBoutin Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 oberkc, Can you tell me the model of the filter that you put on your electrical system to improve the insteon communication. I have a lot of communication error between the PLM and my device. Thanks Yvan
Goose66 Posted May 26, 2013 Author Posted May 26, 2013 Speaking as electrical engineer, I was one during the space race; I would suggest you try some line filters. SmartHome has many on their web site. I have a number of line filters in the house. They are on the UPS that attached to computers, and one for the surge suppressor for my stereo rack. But I have a house full of electronics. Am I supposed to buy and install a line filter on every power supply and electronic device in my home? At $35+ a shot, that would cost a lot of dough. Also, I have several fluorescent lights, like in my closets, garage, shop, under-counter lights, etc. that are hardwired in the house. No filter for those. I have often suggested that a filter built into a SwitchLinc would be awesome, but have only ever heard excuses for why such can't be done.
LeeG Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 A device needs to be filtered only if it is causing a problem. Usually a device causing a problem when turned On but not when Off needs something. If the Insteon network does not have a problem when a device is On no need to add a filter. Electronic devices need to be unplugged to see if Insteon network improves. Todays device continue to provide AC to power supplies so things like IR or power On from sound work. That is why it is necessary to unplug them when testing to see if things improve.
Goose66 Posted May 26, 2013 Author Posted May 26, 2013 Thus my original post -- without tools there is no way to troubleshoot.
LeeG Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Only by process of elimination. The Event Viewer at LEVEL 3 can be used to monitor the Hops Left=x counts to have something objective to look at to see if removing an appliance (unplugging) has an effect. By exercising various devices to see which have good comm and which have marginal comm a pattern may develop. It is time consuming and often frustrating but well worth the time to obtain a good Insteon network.
Recommended Posts