Scene help needed

[EricK]

I finally added the 11 devices in my great room. I am trying to get my dinner scene working. All devices turn on except the spot lights (load controlled by KPL A) and family room lights (load controlled by switchlinc). The two dinner scene non-toggle on buttons are on 8 button KPLs 2486 v.4 and .41. I have the load controllers for the spots and family room lights set to on level 0 as well as the cross linked kpl buttons for those devices. When I hit the dinner scene kpl the spots, family room lights, and all of the corresponding kpl buttons turn on, not off. With my older kpls, the dinner button cannot turn off a kpl on the same keypad, but they should be able to turn off a switchlinc. With houselinc I used an event to turn off the KPL buttons.

In the mean time I will make a program to turn off the spot light and family room light scenes with the dinner on.

thanks,

Eric

[oberkc]

I am not sure that I am following what is and is not happening that should and should not happen. Your screenshot captured the ON levels for some of the devices, but not all.

 

Keep in mind that the screen shot represented the ON levels for when the SCENE is invoked from the ISY. These levels COULD be different when the scene is invoked from one of the keypad controller buttons. Click on each controller button and make sure the ON levels are where you want them.

[EricK]

Aha! I did not understand how the scenes worked. I thought that when I clicked on the scene name and adjusted the reponders that I was setting the on/off levels for the scene. I did not realize that this was only if the ISY triggered the scene. I see now that I have to click on each controller for the scene and adjust levels from there.

By the way. The purpose of my pic was to show the devices in the scene, that the scene name was highlighted, and that the on levels for the family room lights and spots was set to 0. Makes sense when you understand my misunderstanding.

Thank you Oberkc. I will continue to try to master the ISY.

Eric

[oberkc]

I thought that when I clicked on the scene name and adjusted the reponders that I was setting the on/off levels for the scene.

 

Indeed, you are not the first to miss this little detail. This is by design, as I understand insteon, and not unique to the ISY. The purpose of this is to allow multiple buttons to control the same scene, but have different responses. A scene might contain 10 lights, but you may want those 10 lights to be a different levels for, say, watching a movie, versus gathering around, or intermission, or snacks. You could assign four controller buttons to that same scene, but the levels could be set for four different purposes.

 

Most consider this a valuable feature of insteon, I suspect.

[EricK]

I have to forget how HL works. Right now I am setting up two scenes for my great room, Dining and Night. All the same devices, but different responses depending upon whether the dinner button or night button is the trigger. So instead of two, I could really have just one scene. This can make it easier when adding devices to the room, since you only have to add it to one scene. Really more of a group than a scene, but I get it. I probably have to keep two since I am using Roomie Remote which can control each scene separately.

Thank you very much,

Eric

[larryllix]

I thought that when I clicked on the scene name and adjusted the reponders that I was setting the on/off levels for the scene.

 

Indeed, you are not the first to miss this little detail. This is by design, as I understand insteon, and not unique to the ISY. The purpose of this is to allow multiple buttons to control the same scene, but have different responses. A scene might contain 10 lights, but you may want those 10 lights to be a different levels for, say, watching a movie, versus gathering around, or intermission, or snacks. You could assign four controller buttons to that same scene, but the levels could be set for four different purposes.

 

Most consider this a valuable feature of insteon, I suspect.

 

OK you have me confused. Is a group of devices and the pre-thought-out settings called by a trigger command/button not a scene?

 

Can you define what a scene is?

[LeeG]

From an Insteon perspective there are many Scenes involved even though there is only one ISY Scene. The ISY Scene Name is used by Programs and can be controlled with from the Admin Console. This is one Insteon Scene with the PLM being the Controller.

 

Within the one ISY Scene definition, there can be additional Controllers. For example, multiple KPLs can be added as additional Controllers. Each of these additional Controllers represents an additional Insteon Scene.

 

SceneABC - PLM is Controller - one Insteon Scene

KPL1buttonC - Controller - one Insteon Scene

KPL2buttonC - Controller - one Insteon Scene

 

This single ISY Scene definition represents three Insteon Scenes. That is why each Controller can have a different set of Responder On Level and Responder Ramp Rate values as each Responder stores these values keyed to the respective Controller Insteon address.

 

Be careful using the word Group. When reading hardware manuals (not external Quick Start or User Guides) the term Group is used to describe a collection of Insteon devices. The term Group in a hardware manual is synonymous with the end user term Scene. From an engineers perspective they are called Groups. From a normal Insteon users perspective they are called Scenes. Group and Scene mean the same thing.

[larryllix]

This single ISY Scene definition represents three Insteon Scenes. That is why each Controller can have a different set of Responder On Level and Responder Ramp Rate values as each Responder stores these values keyed to the respective Controller Insteon address.

This is very confusing to me, not having ever used scenes with X10 units.

 

Let's see if I have this correct.

- Insteon scenes are stored in responder units (end devices)

- Insteon scene responses in each responder may be different depending where they are triggered from. Multiple scenes can be stored in each responder

- ISY scenes are stored inside the ISY and issued by any ISY trigger desired, in software.

 

I am lost with the usage of the term "controller". Is this the linked controller to the devices sending a scene code?

 

Thanks!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi larryllix,

 

Since you're not going to get an ISY (based on your previous posts vis-a-vis USB), I suspect these concepts and our methodology is going to get increasing more difficult to visualize.

 

May I humbly ask why the interest in understanding ISY methodology in a vacuum?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[larryllix]

Hi larryllix,

Since you're not going to get an ISY (based on your previous posts vis-a-vis USB), I suspect these concepts and our methodology is going to get increasing more difficult to visualize.

May I humbly ask why the interest in understanding ISY methodology in a vacuum?

With kind regards,

Michel

Wow!

Perhaps you have me confused with another poster?

 

I have ordered an ISY, as stated elsewhere as backordered, and I am anxiously awaiting it's arrival by forearming myself with knowledge regarding the style of programming and trying to avoid some of quirks and traps found in every programming language, especially by newbies.

 

The information seems too well hidden, elsewhere, and this forum has been the best source of info, so far. The wiki is good but looks early in it's development and was very hard to discover it's existence.

 

I hope I haven't caused unnecessary confusion here.

 

Have a good Christmas!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi larryllix,

 

I am so very sorry. There are no excuses for this lapse of memory and vision (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13006&p=102200&hilit=usb#p102200) and I do apologize.

 

Merry Christmas to you and all the best.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

larryllix

 

I think it would be best to look at the insteondetails.pdf document on insteon.com web site. It goes into Insteon in some detail. It may generate more questions but that is a good place to start if you want to understand Insteon and how the pieces work together. The document was updated recently with the latest changes in the Insteon protocol. Most folks don't care to go that deep but your interest seems deeper than most care about.

[EricK]

Hello,

Hopefully I can get this thread back on track. I got things set up last night but am having problems with my Keypad (3.5 years old). When I set the all off button to non toggle off the button stays lit although the function is still sending non toggle off.. Also I have programs to be triggered by my dining and nights scene buttons that dont run. I had a problem 2 weeks ago where two KPLs seemed to have lost programming. Ill try switching the keypad out to a new dual band, thank you smarthome sale.

For the dining scene I have certain devices on (kitchen, island, breakfast, pantry, cabinetsx2). I want to set up a program ("dining scene kpl tracker") to track the status of the scene and to turn the dining kpl off if the scene is disrupted. I have searched for this and think I understand it.

Something like:

If status kitchen lights not on

or status island lights not on

etc

Then turn scene dining kpl scene off. (Both dining scene control kpls buttons are responders of the dining kpl scene)

 

Would I need a separate program to turn off the dining kpls if say the family room lights (non-dimming, not part of the dining scene) are turned on. I think I could just add a line

or status family room lights are on.

 

Does having a program like this generate traffic. Can I create the program to run only if the dining kpls are on. If they are off, no need to check every device. Ex:

If status dining KPL sink is on

or if status dining KPL spots is on

and

If status kitchen lights not on

or status island lights not on

etc

Or do I need two programs for this. ex:

If status dining KPL sink is on

or if status dining KPL spots is on

then run program "dining scene kpl tracker"

Thank you,

Eric

[shannong]

There is the "Insteon Details" doc on their site. Useful but needs more.

 

http://www.insteon.com/pdf/insteondetails.pdf

 

The most useful information for me was the sticky on this forum under How-To's and Tutorials. viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4026

 

It explains how scenes are stored and triggered in devices and how the ISY w/PLM participates in that. I highly recommend you read that one.

[shannong]

Hello,

Hopefully I can get this thread back on track. I got things set up last night but am having problems with my Keypad (3.5 years old). When I set the all off button to non toggle off the button stays lit although the function is still sending non toggle off..

 

I had problems with this too when creating an "All Off" button for the kitchen on the KPL. The button would turn on and stay on regardless of the non-toggle mode. My KPL is v.43.

 

I'm now using Non-Toggle-Off but it's not a controller or responder in a scene. I have a scene setup for all applicable lights and buttons to be turned off and wrote a program that turns this scene "on" when that particular KPL "switched off". It blinks twice when I press it and then turns off again. All the lights go out as expected.

 

Not sure why it wouldn't work in a scene. Seems straight forward. I'm open to other suggestions to accomplish this.

[EricK]

This particular all off button worked fine with hl. The all off button also works fine with the isy in the theater. I'll see what happens after I switch out the Kpl. I don't want to use the replace function in case there are bad links even thoug I have reset this Kpl 3 times. Will be a bit of work to get all of the buttons added to all of the scenes.

For the kitchen lights there is a switchlinc plus two other Kpl buttons. I added these three responders to my dining scene together to keep them grouped together. It makes it easier to handle setting responses if all devices for a particular light are in a row. Devices in a scene are listed in the order added. Is there a way to change the order.

Eric

[oberkc]

Shannong's experience with non-toggle off is as mine...the button will flash a couple of times, the turn off. It should work in a scene. At my house, it DOES work in scenes.

 

Perhaps it is a bad device. If it is sending OFF commands, yet the LED is staying on, this would make me suspicious. Is it possible that there are other programs triggered by this button? Could this button also be a responder in another scene?

[EricK]

I swapped out the old kpl for a new DB and re-added all of the buttons to scenes rather than replace device and now things work fine. However, one of my other older keypads in the room has two buttons that are not turning off in response to a scene. I created a new scene for them and a program is able to run to turn them off.

Maybe tonight I'll get working on the Dining Scene KPL LED status checker.

Happy Holiday.

Eric

[oberkc]

I vaguely recall that some of the older keypads do not allow secondary button ON levels of zero. Hopefully I am wrong.

[LeeG]

KeypadLincs with firmware below v.40 do not support turning a Secondary KPL button Off with an On command (0% On Level).

[EricK]

KeypadLincs with firmware below v.40 do not support turning a Secondary KPL button Off with an On command (0% On Level).

Lee, you are right but I had this working with HL. I set the program as a a work around.

I finally have all of my devices added to the ISY although I need to work on my shades a bit. Then leak sensors.

I am trying to create programs to check the status of the dining scene and if the scene is disrupted to turn off the dining kpls. I used this link as a guide: http://www.adamsj.com/isy/basementA.htm

Here is the first program that checks to see if the dining KPLs are lit. I really only need to check the status of one button not both:

If

Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Spots KPL (DB) - A Spots / GR Spots KPL (DB) - E Dining' is not Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Sink KPL - A Cabinet / GR Sink KPL - H Dining' is not Off

 

Then

Run Program 'Check Dining Scene Devices' (If)

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Here is the 'Check dining scene devices' program which I set as disabled.

If

Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Kitchen Lights' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Island Lights' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Breakfast Lights (DB)' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Pantry Lights' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Sink KPL - A Cabinet' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Cabinets R (DB)' is Off

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Family Room Lights' is On

Or Status 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Spots KPL (DB) - A Spots' is not Off

 

Then

Wait 4 seconds

Set Scene 'Great Room / GR Dining KPLs' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

If I activate the dining scene, turn off the kitchen lights, then run the if of the first program, then the dining kpls turn off. However, if I just wait after turning off the kitchen lights, the dining kpls do not turn off. Maybe I did not wait long enough, in other words how often does the ISY check statuses.

 

Or should I do something like this. If the kitchen lights are switched off from a kpl button, will this work. Or is it only if the kitchen light switch link is manually turned off.

If

Control 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Kitchen Lights' is switched Off

Or Control 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Island Lights' is switched Off

 

Then

Set Scene 'Great Room / GR Dining KPLs' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Thanks,

Eric

[oberkc]

in other words how often does the ISY check statuses.

 

The ISY does not "check" status on a schedule. ISY programs based on status are triggered when the status changes. If the status does not change, the program will never trigger. The only time your first program would trigger is if the status of either of the two devices in the IF condition change (or if you trigger the program manually or from another program).

 

Or should I do something like this. If the kitchen lights are switched off from a kpl button, will this work. Or is it only if the kitchen light switch link is manually turned off.

If

Control 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Kitchen Lights' is switched Off

Or Control 'Great Room / Great Room Devices / GR Island Lights' is switched Off

 

This program would trigger itself when either the GR Kitchen Lights or GR Island Lights status changes. For status, the cause of the change does not matter (whether a switch was manually changed or from other causes).

[EricK]

Thanks oberkc. Ill just add to the last program to include 'switched off' for all devices that should be on for the dining scene and vice versa.

Regarding the 'non-toggle off' all off button for the new keypad, it is also remaining on. Not sure why this is so I may need to create a program to keep it off. I felt a bit sorry for HL last night when I disconnected the PLM from my computer. But, I am really enjoying the power of the ISY.

Eric

[Xathros]

I'm not sure that is the right answer either. I think you want to monitor the STATUS of all devices in the scene and manage the KPL button based on that. The above will work if a specific control is used to turn a scene member off but what if another scene changes a member in this scene?

 

Try this:

 

If 
  Status SceneMember1 is Off
or Status SceneMember2 is Off
or Status SceneMember3 is Off
or Status SceneMember4 is Off

Then
  Set KPLButtonScene Off

Else

 

This way, no matter how a scene member is turned off, the KPL button will be affected.

 

-Xathros

[EricK]

Xathros, I think I will give that a try. I have a scene for the kitchen lights that includes a switchlinc (load) and 3 kpl buttons. With your method I would have to include all memebers. With the way I have if the kitchen lights are turned off by one of the kpl buttons then the switchlinc will turn off. That should accomplish what I want with less devices added to the program.

Eric