Apple HomeKit?

[Guitartexan01]

That is a very realistic and honest response. Apple Home does not support third party vendors that I have used in building my HA system I also have all the functionality of REAL HA through ISy making things happen without my input. True HA. I don't have to, but I can call on Alexa a lot also, who BTW sounds way sexier that Siri.

Dam the torpedoes! Forward Michel!

 

 

GT

[G W]

HomeKit integration with ISY is critical, IMHO. While I love the flexibility of programming the ISY-994i units in both of my homes to do what I want based on Insteon remote buttons pressed, sensor response, time of day, program variables, etc., the convenience of a HomeKit interface on my iOS and MacOS devices will ultimately sway my future home automation purchase decisions, as will the ability to control other systems I use like Sonos and Nest. Integration with the devices I use every day matters to me. Ease of use matters to me. End-user UI/UX design matters to me (an area where ISY is severely lacking, by the way). Here are just a couple of recent articles that already have me contemplating a move away from ISY and Insteon if there are no plans for HomeKit integration:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/06/22/apples-homekit-smarthome-platform-picks-up-new-device-types-controls

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/06/23/home-app-in-ios-10

If it's critical, then you need to urge Apple to fully support the ISY.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Teken]

Given more than a year has passed in the release of Apple Home Kit this unifying platform is still four years behind. Its almost comical to watch all the iSheep rush out to purchase half baked and hobbled products that use the Home Kit moniker. As I said early on lets see what happens in the next 18 months for this platform.

 

As of this writing there isn't anything ground breaking or earth shattering being offered here by Apple.

 

To think one of their biggest news announcements and high lights was that *Apple* created a home button?!?! At the pace they are going they will have met Google in the same also rand category for flash in the pan ideas. 

[MWareman]

Apple deliberately put up a wall around their products, and actively prevent other companies from entering, unless they play by their own (often onerous) rules.

 

If you desperately want Home kit, you'll need to get a Home kit certified hub. My feeling is their functionality seriously lacks compared to the ISY - even though they have a arguably nice UI.

[Guitartexan01]

I agree about the UI. That's all they have and I don't wish to spend enough time on the UI to care. I just want to program and check things and be out and let the HA , HAutomate.

Can you dig it?

 

 

GT

[paulbates]

There are 2 camps in HA for sure,

 

1- Remote control of devices via a phone

2- Deep, integrated automation

 

Paul

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello all,

 

Thank you all. The main question is whether or not we can put this integration in the cloud and, currently, it's just not feasible. If anyone has any input or knows someone at Apple who can help us, we would be delighted to take a look. The only thing we can NOT do is to change our hardware just to support HomeKit.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[perma]

Michel,

 

I'm new to the community, having just purchased my ISY994iZw/IR PRO Insteon / Z-Wave Pro Controller with Dual-Band PLM last night. I've been excited to pair it with an Elk M1 to protect and automate my home currently under construction. I was reading your comment from June, regarding Homekit, and that you can't change your hardware "just to support HomeKit."  I would say, 'discount them at your peril.' I worked at WordPerfect many years ago, and the company considered Microsoft Windows to be a half-baked passing fad layered on top of DOS, deciding instead to focus their efforts on OS2, a much more robust offering from IBM. That bet lost the company, as Microsoft took the market.

 

Watching the Apple keynote today, the backdrop to the Homekit conversation caught my attention. The number of partners they have now, vs a year ago is impressive. Your company was missing from the list, and honestly, after the keynote, I called the vendor to see if i was too late to cancel my order. After reading your feelings on Homekit, I may end up returning it and looking for an alternative. Our family is heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem with macs, iphones, ipads, watches, apps, etc. Not being able to take advantage of this natural point of integration is unfortunate, as we're building a foundation for our HA systems for years to come.

 

Have you looked into Homebridge, as a possibility for an interim step while building a homekit dongle? http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/08/open-source-homebridge-links-3rd-party-smart-home-devices-like-nest-to-apples-homekit

 

https://github.com/nfarina/homebridge.

 

Backdrop from today's Apple Keynote attached below.

[cyberk]

I can say that I'm eagerly waiting for HomeKit support too.

 

But I will tell you that nothing on the market can do what ISY does. So if you're going to return your ISY, know that while you may find something that supports HomeKit, you may not find something that supports Insteon, Z-Wave, Amazon Alexa and HomeKit...nor, like I said before, will you find anything that does what ISY does.

 

That being said, I would love to see ISY support HomeKit and ZigBee along with Zwave and Insteon.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G W]

If only we could mate the ISY and a Wink.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Scottmichaelj]

If only we could mate the ISY and a Wink.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Why did Wink have Homelink or what was the connection?

[G W]

The wink has a lot of radios in it, works with many more devices and has some unique methods for adding new devices.

 

If the ISY could take have the best parts of the wink it would be a kipper device. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. We will have to wait a few years to see what the next ISY hardware has.

 

I'm not going to second guess UDI but i suspect Michel has already given sone thought to what he'd like to do. Hardware requires a lot of thought, research and testing.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[jtara92101]

My guess is that the hardware is inadequate for Homekit.

 

Since ISY can't support two "portals" - apparently due to encryption overhead - it probably can't support HomeKit for the same reason. The processor is just too underpowered, and presume no hardware encryption support.

 

Given Apple's emphasis on security, one would presume they would require encryption.

 

Hate to say it, but I think the handwriting is on the wall. You shouldn't need an ISY *plus* a Raspberry Pi. Yet, that's what more and more solutions require.

 

Time to move the Rasberry Pi (or equivalent) into the ISY.

 

Tim Cook talked about courage today. Kinda silly when we are talking about an analog audio connector.

 

UDI needs to get some courage. The Little Engine that Could has been OK till now. But it's increasingly the Little Engine that Can't. Time to up the horsepower. 

 

ISY NEEDS to be able to support multiple, encrypted portals and external APIs. And it needs to support a popular scripting language - directly on the box. But the little processor with the little memory that is more than adequate for running simple (but painful to write) programs for automating your lights just doesn't have what it takes for integrating with an increasing number of today's automation widgets.

[mwester]

Michel,

 

I'm new to the community, having just purchased my ISY994iZw/IR PRO Insteon / Z-Wave Pro Controller with Dual-Band PLM last night. I've been excited to pair it with an Elk M1 to protect and automate my home currently under construction. I was reading your comment from June, regarding Homekit, and that you can't change your hardware "just to support HomeKit."  I would say, 'discount them at your peril.' I worked at WordPerfect many years ago, and the company considered Microsoft Windows to be a half-baked passing fad layered on top of DOS, deciding instead to focus their efforts on OS2, a much more robust offering from IBM. That bet lost the company, as Microsoft took the market.

 

Watching the Apple keynote today, the backdrop to the Homekit conversation caught my attention. The number of partners they have now, vs a year ago is impressive. Your company was missing from the list, and honestly, after the keynote, I called the vendor to see if i was too late to cancel my order. After reading your feelings on Homekit, I may end up returning it and looking for an alternative. Our family is heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem with macs, iphones, ipads, watches, apps, etc. Not being able to take advantage of this natural point of integration is unfortunate, as we're building a foundation for our HA systems for years to come.

 

<snip>

 

Interesting comment -- and I suspect many feel as you do.  However, since this *is* a forum and one of the uses of same is a discussion of opposing viewpoints, let me offer a few comments.

 

First, regarding: "discount them at your peril" -- Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt!  Good sales tactics, but not a good argument in itself.  You follow that up with an example regarding OS2 vs Microsoft Windows -- again, good sales tactics, but from a technology and market point of view, that's not a very good comparison at all.  Let's avoid the technical differences -- the operating system battle was based on corporate spend, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the end consumer or their home.  Sure the PC and Windows found their way into the home, but the battleground between OS/2 (IBM) and Windows (Microsoft) happened in Corporate boardrooms and IT executive suites.  The decision about homekit vs other automation technologies, thus far, is quite different -- it involves the pocket-books and impulse-buying tendencies of the end consumer, and to a great extend it does not involve a lot of technologically-smart consumers, nor does it involve the sort of buying decisions involved in corporate acquisitions of hardware and software.

 

My point - I keep hearing the FUD about how Apple will take over the home automation space, and you all better "toe the Apple line", but I see no real evidence of that happening to date.  If it does, though, it certainly won't be in any way similar to the OS/2 - Windows battle.

 

I appreciate, as you note further in your comment, that your family is heavily invested in Apple stuff.  Thanks for being honest on that -- I've observed that in general, those pushing the Homekit thing tend to all be heavily into Apple stuff.  Human nature, which is fine -- we all want to maximize and protect the investments we've made.  But I reject the implication throughout your post that if I fail to buy into Apple as you have, then I will find my Home Automation investment obsolete.  In other words, if I don't join you in your Apple enthusiasm, I'm wrong -- that's pretty much the message.

 

I have apple stuff.  Meh.  I can take it or leave it.  It doesn't matter, because I have a fundamentally-different view of what home automation is and should be than that being marketed by Apple (and most of the other HA companies, for that matter).  I'd argue that Apple sees HA as an application that will drive the sales of devices to control the HA (homekit-enabled) devices.  In other words, a great way to drive the Apple TV, more iPads, and more iPhones into the consumer space.  To me, that's not automation - that's a remote control.  I don't need more remote controls.  And my point on this is that here's where the ISY is unique -- UDI and the ISY are all about enabling real automation -- where  you don't need an iPhone with an app, because the "right thing" just happened all by itelf.  And it happened, even if the Internet connection was down.  And it worked with a happily-hacked-together device that I built and assembled, one that doesn't need (and can't use) an Apple HomeKit hardware to make it work.

 

So, go Apple!  Seriously, I hope they make a great run at the homekit and HA space; they have the muscle to open up a lot of devices that to date have been closed and proprietary.  But go UDI!  Make it so I'm not beholden to Apple's vision of "Home Automation", instead let me realize MY vision of home automation. 

[Teken]

Just finished watching the Apple event video and really there was nothing earth shattering in regards to home automation or Apple Home Kit.

 

It doesn't matter how many companies they list off in that press release image. There are a huge percentage of companies that still to this very day don't offer an actual Home Kit product and Liftmasters is one of them. The others from a quick review offer half baked hobbled products.

 

Where as others certainly don't offer the so called Apple feel and ease of use and connectivity. There is indeed some big hitters on the list but again I don't see anything relevant the serious Home Automation (HA) enthusiasts would use in its current form. As I indicated many months back - At the current pace and technological advancement of the Apple Home Kit deployment its still very much.

 

Meh . . .

 

Anyone who is honest and unbiased will acknowledge Tim gave about 23 seconds of air time for Home Kit.

 

Why???

 

Because its still meh . . .

 

Its almost comical to watch all the iSheep drool and completely lose their sh^t at every tiny mention of Apple Home Kit. The mythical Apple fairy dust must be strong as is the spell it casts over the iSheep.

 

Ba-haaaaaaaaaaaaaa Ba-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

Its currently September 07, 2016 and Apples Home Kit has not turned the HA universe upside down nor has it moved mountains or cured aids. Its fair to say another 18 months will soon pass and unless something dramatic changes it will continue to be meh. To think UDI could have fallen prey to the iSheep fairy dust and wasted valuable time, resources, and finances backing this poorly executed platform.

 

If anything should be done the team needs to push forward with 5.XX beta's because this whole node, multi-channel, and energy support has been slower than the ice age. Lastly, if anything hardware related is to be added to any future controller it should be a ZigBee radio that supports all the different profiles. The next 3.XX spec which hasn't been fully ratified should be the road map to follow.

 

Other than that the team really needs to update and release a new Z-Wave Generation 5 chip set. Not sure what the hold up is regarding that but it would certainly put to bed all the connectivity issues people have and not have to use 5-10 sirens to couple / bridge their Z-Wave networks.  

[G W]

Everything is time and money. The holdup.... Time and money. If UDI invests the time and money, will there be the return to justify the investment?

 

It won't do anything for UDI to release the Z-Wave 5.0 chip set. You can buy that yourself. UDI neefd to build a replacement Z-Wave module with that 5.0 chip set and write all the necessary code. Then UDI has to sell enough of them to justify the cost.

 

And everyone knows many on here will think it should be free or cheap. It won't be either .

 

Teken has corrupted me.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[jtara92101]

The iSheep are the greatest part of the herd:

 

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=iphone,android

 

There is no third choice. We've known that for a while. If we have been paying attention.

 

Some of the ignorance here is astounding. I have a great deal of respect for Michael, but... (going back MANY posts, I know...) Bonjour = zeroconf. EVERYBODY uses it. Even Microsoft. They would rather you call it "zeroconf", trademark issues aside, because that distances it from Apple. But only Apple can call it "Bonjour". Marketing/trademark silliness. There seems to be a bias here. This is a blind spot.

 

The inadequate processor power of the ISY is another. The ISY today should be using an ARM processor. Yes, the ISY is power-efficient. So are modern ARMs.

 

I watched the Apple presentation today, and the one thing that made the biggest impression has nothing to do with Apple, really. The iPhone 7 is 250 times faster than the original iPhone. I don't even want to THINK about how much faster it is than the dual 360/67 mainframe that was the entire academic computing capacity of my university. (1972-1976) There's nothing proprietary to Apple about that. Chips get faster. Chips get less power-hungry.  "The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on".

 

I have worked with embedded systems and process control since near the beginning of microprocessors. My first computer personal computer was a Schelbi H-8 (8008, wirewrapped by me). My first N computers programmed were: IBM 1620, IBM S360/67, Intel 8008, Intel 4040, MOS Technology 6502 (engineering sample), TMS1000. I have ALWAYS dealt-with and had to choose from  (or had the luxury of choosing from) a HUGE range of processor power. I have never been afraid to massively scale-up or scale-down as appropriate. 40 years of this, you start to get an intuitive feel...

 

The ISY does it's core job well. It is struggling to deal with outside interfaces. 

 

Some people here are pretty excited about Nodelink. Here's what Nodelink does:

 

NodeLink is a console application (runs on a networked computer) which allows communication between various devices and an ISY-994i with firmware >=V5.
NodeLink is a Node Server which creates nodes (virtual devices) within the ISY.

 

 

I gather UDI is going out of it's way to be supportive of Nodelink. Nice. It seems the thing about V5 people are most excited about. At the same time UDI is dismissive of HomeKit. But if you are not so dismissive.... maybe Nodelink is a solution?

 

So, the thing people are most excited about V5 is that it can work with a more-powerful external computer used to connect to services or devices that it doesn't have the power to connect to.

 

The moving finger done writ. UDI: MOVE ON!

[G W]

Most posts here are sarcastic, humorous and fun, but let's get serious for a moment.

 

To support Apple HomeKit has two major requirements.

 

1. An all new ISY with new hardware and software.

 

2. An exorbitantly outrageous license fee to Apple, Incorporated.

 

Let's skip item 1 for a moment and talk about item 2. Let us for the sake of this discussion state that the license fee is $100,000.

 

Let us also state that there 2,000 users that will buy the HomeKit ISY. Supporting HomeKit adds an additional $50 per unit for those that want HomeKit. We all know the price will go down if more units are sold but I'm not convinced that more that a few Apple users will ever want an ISY.

 

Now back to item 1 and an all new ISY. I'm all for new hardware and a new ISY. I'm sure we will get new hardware but I think it will be two years in the future.

 

I'd like to see an ISY with a databus that can except additional hardware modules. This gives the possibility to add several ZigBee protocols if the financial demand is there. But if UDI agreed to this today it would still take a year to have prototyping done.

 

HomeKit is just NOT going to happen anytime soon, if at all.

 

We all need to wait for v5 release code and then we should have some serious discussions with UDI and put forth serious and realistic ideas.

 

---------------

 

I now return myself to my silly and ridiculous mode. Why? Because my opinions are my own and I don't represent or speak for UDI so I can be that 7 letter word that rafarataneneces says I am.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[elvisimprsntr]

I've often wondered how difficult it would be for UDI to port everything to a Raspberry Pi and an Zwave shield

 

http://razberry.z-wave.me/

 

It could easily include the Apple MFi chip required for HomeKit. In fact there was one company who built a MFi module which connected to the RPi SPI interface as a proof of concept. Sadly it never became a product, likely at Apples hand.

[Teken]

Everything is time and money. The holdup.... Time and money. If UDI invests the time and money, will there be the return to justify the investment?

 

It won't do anything for UDI to release the Z-Wave 5.0 chip set. You can buy that yourself. UDI neefd to build a replacement Z-Wave module with that 5.0 chip set and write all the necessary code. Then UDI has to sell enough of them to justify the cost.

 

And everyone knows many on here will think it should be free or cheap. It won't be either .

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

 

That is what I was referencing which is the Z-Wave module be updated to support Gen5 chip set. From a manufacturing stand point all they need to do is replace the chip on the next batch of production units. Let the older stock sell out until depleted than bring the new stock on line.

 

I don't pretend to know how much stock they have on hand of the older chips so this could very well take a few years! Given the ISY doesn't seem to have the same market awareness like Wink, Smartthings, etc. 

[giesen]

That is what I was referencing which is the Z-Wave module be updated to support Gen5 chip set. From a manufacturing stand point all they need to do is replace the chip on the next batch of production units. Let the older stock sell out until depleted than bring the new stock on line.

 

I don't pretend to know how much stock they have on hand of the older chips so this could very well take a few years! Given the ISY doesn't seem to have the same market awareness like Wink, Smartthings, etc.

Likely the APIs for the chips have changed a fair bit to support the new functions, and is likely not a drop in replacement. Let UDI get Z-Wave support stabilized first before we talk about adding even more work for them to do...

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[Teken]

Likely the APIs for the chips have changed a fair bit to support the new functions, and is likely not a drop in replacement. Let UDI get Z-Wave support stabilized first before we talk about adding even more work for them to do...

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

Captain Kirk Voice: But Scotty we need the power now - more power!

[G W]

UDI will have an issue regardless of whether the chip set is a direct replacement. Test units will have to be developed and sent out. Code will have to be written. That can take six months.

 

Devices have to be produced and stocked. UDI will have to set a price so let's say $79 as that was the latest full price. UDI will have to send out free units to those that bought an ISY in the last XX days.

 

Then the complaining starts from those that just missed the cutoff. And others will complain that $79 is too high.

 

UDI just can't win this one so I don't see that UDI will be in any rush to add to its problems.

 

As for me, I'll pay $200 today for two units delivered at a future date. I have faith and trust in UDI and I know Michel to be an honest and honorable man.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Teken]

There will always be people who are dissatisfied that is the animal we call technology. At some point the company will need to update the Z-wave board to incorporate Gen 5 chip set. Because ignoring to do so will ultimately impact long term sales and customer satisfaction.

 

As Giesen mentioned getting the whole Z-Wave code to a point where its stable and fully operational to support multi channel is key never mind Gen 5. For me seeing a formal Beta roll out of 5.XX is more important because this has been holding up several third party companies which are interested in node, polyglot, and vars support.

 

At this point its the whole chicken & egg scenario for the vendors . . . 

[jtara92101]

2. An exorbitantly outrageous license fee to Apple, Incorporated.

 

... Let us for the sake of this discussion state that the license fee is $100,000.

 

 

 

Let's assume, instead, that the license fee is $0. Because that's how much it is.

 

For development, one needs an MFi (Made For iPhone) developer license. For hardware products, one needs an MFi manufacturing license. Both are no-cost programs at this time. Both programs are limited to Companies, organizations, government entities and educational institutions.

 

If UDI would go sign-up for these free programs (you get all the docs you need with the first one, the second is only for companies with physical hardware production facilities. If you outsource production, the manufacturer has to join the manufacturer program).

 

There is a fee to a third-party for a company identity check. I can't imagine that's more than $100, and probably much less.  It's part of the automated sign-up process. They redirect you to an outside website, and you pay a fee to have somebody check with your secretary of state or whatever. 

 

And there are (undisclosed) royalties. (NDA after you sign up.)

 

I'm going to go ahead and sign-up my company for the developer program today. Unfortunately, I won't then be able to discuss the details, as they are under NDA.

 

I HOPE the only reason UDI has not stated that they have joined the program is that they are being ultra-strict about following the NDA, so much so that they won't admit that they've signed-up. If not, there is NO excuse for not joining.

 

Apple ought to get two new applications today, hint, hint!

 

Just sign up, and the documentation they haven't been able to find (because it is only available to participants) will be handed to them.

 

There has been a lot of ***-U-MEing going on here! Both UDI and others here have assumed that this is a Big Scary License.

 

The manufacturer program, i gather, is for those technologies covered under MFi that require an Apple chip. (For example, Bluetooth accessories, accessories that connect to the dock.) They want to audit your use of the chips.

 

I don't know IF a chip is needed for HomeKit. If it is, it could probably go on a daughter board. But, oopsie! ISY only accepts one daughter board, because why on earth would one EVER need more than one daughter board?!

 

That (POTENTIALLY, IF a chip is needed) and communication almost certainly has to be encrypted, and UDI has in the past stated that as a reason for "only one portal". So we know the platform has an issue with having limited horsepower for encryption.

 

Unfortunately, the terms of the program seem to preclude hobbyists publishing open-source solutions to run on a Raspberry Pi. Well, unless they reverse-engineer it:

 

https://github.com/KhaosT/HAP-NodeJS

 

http://selfcoded.com/homecontrol/index.html

 

https://github.com/freerunnering/HomeKitBridge

 

Of course, UDI cannot put itself in the position of using reverse-engineered code. Well, I wouldn't want to if I were them. But given at least 3 reverse-engineered open-source projects, and a FREE developer program, it is hard to plea lack of information.

 

Given the existence of at least 3 working open-source projects that run on desktop computers/Raspberry Pi, etc. I assume no chip is needed. They need to sign-up for the program and write some code. (Not saying writing the code won't cost at LEAST $100,000!) And get on a platform capable of running the code. Oopsie!