Apple HomeKit?

[lilyoyo1]

I'm not seeing your point. Why does the ISY need to run on its own hardware, why can't an app with similar conditional logic run on an Apple device in the home instead? An app would employ the MFi key/encoder/decoder built into the Apple device it is running on to get access to HomeKit accessories directly, bridges like the Insteon HomeKit Hub to access other Insteon devices without the MFi chip built-in, and, potentially, http to control legacy, non-HomeKit gear.

Its a matter of resources. The ISY is in the business of selling their own hardware. This discussion is about the ISY and homekit. Why would UDI design an app for homekit to be used with someone elses devices that they have no control over? To go that far, they would want the app to talk to their own device at which point would need new hardware which has the chip built in.

[jasont]

Back to my original question -- someone claims that we can write a software bridge such that a linux or windows system can act as a proxy between the ISY and the homekit devices.  That seems to solve all the problems here -- the ISY remains as-is, homekit remains as-is, and all we need is a little code on a Raspberry Pi (which is a he** of a lot cheaper than an iPad!).

 

 

I don't have a problem with this approach -- it's what I've been doing.

 

For the last several months, I've been running Homebridge on a Raspberry Pi, acting as proxy between my non-HomeKit devices (my ISY+connected devices, MyQ garage door opener, and WeMo remote outlet) and the iOS devices in my house.

 

It's worked well.  I've been able to query/control these devices through Siri and third-party HomeKit apps (like Elgato's Eve).

 

With iOS 10, there's now a native HomeKit app ("Home"), and you can now query/control your favorite devices directly from Control Center (swipe up from the bottom edge of the screen), which means you don't even have to leave the app that you're currently in.

 

The only issue I've recently run into is that the ISY plugin for Homebridge doesn't support zwave.  I've recently added a GE zwave 3-speed fan wall switch and two Leviton zwave lamp modules to my ISY.  I got lucky that the 3-speed fan wall switch works with Homebridge, but the lamp modules don't.  No clue if that's a Homebridge or ISY plugin limitation.

 

No interest in replacing my ISY.  From what I've seen of the new "automation" part of iOS 10, it very v1.0.  You can do stuff when your location changes, a time of day occurs, an accessory is controlled, or a sensor detects something.  But basic stuff.  I can turn my porch light on at sunset, but there's no offset, so can't turn it on 15 minutes before sunset.  I can turn on my exterior driveway light after dark if my motion detector senses motion, but there's no way to turn that light off after 10 minutes.

 

I'm fine with my ISY doing all of the automation, but I'd prefer to use HomeKit for the basic control (and to see the status) of the devices.   Using a proxy between the ISY and HomeKit has worked well for me so far.  I'd be willing to pay for a more robust proxy.

 

I think an iPad running as a HomeKit bridge was only done because more homes have iPads in them than Apple TVs.  

[mwester]

I don't have a problem with this approach -- it's what I've been doing.

 

For the last several months, I've been running Homebridge on a Raspberry Pi, acting as proxy between my non-HomeKit devices (my ISY+connected devices, MyQ garage door opener, and WeMo remote outlet) and the iOS devices in my house.

 

It's worked well.  I've been able to query/control these devices through Siri and third-party HomeKit apps (like Elgato's Eve).

 

With iOS 10, there's now a native HomeKit app ("Home"), and you can now query/control your favorite devices directly from Control Center (swipe up from the bottom edge of the screen), which means you don't even have to leave the app that you're currently in.

 

The only issue I've recently run into is that the ISY plugin for Homebridge doesn't support zwave.  I've recently added a GE zwave 3-speed fan wall switch and two Leviton zwave lamp modules to my ISY.  I got lucky that the 3-speed fan wall switch works with Homebridge, but the lamp modules don't.  No clue if that's a Homebridge or ISY plugin limitation.

 

No interest in replacing my ISY.  From what I've seen of the new "automation" part of iOS 10, it very v1.0.  You can do stuff when your location changes, a time of day occurs, an accessory is controlled, or a sensor detects something.  But basic stuff.  I can turn my porch light on at sunset, but there's no offset, so can't turn it on 15 minutes before sunset.  I can turn on my exterior driveway light after dark if my motion detector senses motion, but there's no way to turn that light off after 10 minutes.

 

I'm fine with my ISY doing all of the automation, but I'd prefer to use HomeKit for the basic control (and to see the status) of the devices.   Using a proxy between the ISY and HomeKit has worked well for me so far.  I'd be willing to pay for a more robust proxy.

 

I think an iPad running as a HomeKit bridge was only done because more homes have iPads in them than Apple TVs.  

 

No, I think you missed my point.  I'm asking for the OTHER way around -- I need the ISY to be able to control a homekit-enabled device.  What you've described is exactly what I DON'T want!

 

I have NO interest in acquiring an Apple iPad, nor using any of Apple's apps to manage ANYTHING in my home.  The question is if I can use any of the homekit devices using a Linux or Windows system (which would automatically enable me to control it via a node server with the ISY).

 

 

So, at this point, based on the not-quite-answers I'm getting, the reality is this:

 

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to control a homekit device OTHER than to use an Apple-proprietary application and device as the controller for same.

 

 

Now, if that statement is true, why on earth would ANY controller manufacturer want to participate in Apple's game?  Color me confused; this entire thread seems to go around and around with partial statements that dodge the truth, offering some possibility of hope while concealing how it all falls short.  Honestly, I'm now beginning to feel that the voices on this thread that keep stating that it's impossible to integrate the ISY as a controller into the homekit world may indeed be right.

 

Again, somebody -- especially the Apple fanboys and the homekit enthusiasts -- show me an open application, running on  WINDOWS or LINUX (sorry for shouting, seems folks missed that part earlier!), that acts as a CONTROLLER (another thing people seem to keep missing here) of homekit devices.  If that exists, then we can integrate.  If it doesn't exist, then indeed it is the case that there is no path for the ISY to integrate into the homekit device space.  End of argument.  It really is that simple!

Come on, let's see those devices and apps!  (On WINDOWS or LINUX, and CONTROLLERS, please!)

[stusviews]

Summary:

A pocket sized device that runs iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, OS X, even more.

A matching laptop and desktop and an ISY too.

If only the cloud will suffice, then I want my own cloud.

It won't be dark.

There it is in the seventh heaven.

I choose cloud nine to be mine.

[jasont]

I did miss your point. Sorry to have made you shout.

 

Running around Home Depot and Lowe's lately, I've seen a lot of switches and stuff mention HomeKit compatibility*, with the * denoting that a hub was required.

 

So from the manufacturers point-of-view, participating in this doesn't seem to mean making end-devices that are exclusively controlled by HomeKit (although there are undoubtedly devices like that out there) as much as it means providing a way for HomeKit to be able to access their already existing end-devices that are z-wave/WiFi/Bluetooth/whatever controlled.

 

I imagine the chip that Apple requires for securely communicating to HomeBridge devices would prevent open apps from talking to devices that are HomeKit only. I don't have any devices like those. My two Ecobees are HomeKit, but not HomeKit only.

 

Is there a particular HomeKit-only device you're looking to integrate?

 

I (and I think most people asking about HomeKit) am looking for HomeKit to be able to access the ISY (and the devices that it manages)... Insteon and z-wave for me. The ISY doesn't need to be a able to connect to other HomeKit devices to do that.

[icerabbit]

It would be nice to respect outer people's opinions even from inside your bubble..

Cheers,

Alex

...

[icerabbit]

Thank you, Teken, you have always been extremely helpful.

And others for getting back on track.

 

Having followed computers for most of my life, plenty of things came and went. I agree on the the shortcomings and attitudes in and around the various companies and their products. Not a week goes by that an Apple decision doesn't frustrate me, in some way, in that a product does ~90% of what I want it to do. I/O options, repairability and no cloud are pretty big with me.

/ no bubble

/ no koolaid

[mango]

I'm interested in anything Apple has that works with Insteon, especially the ISY. What's cooking over the horizon kind of thing.

Bridging all the way.

[Teken]

Thank you, Teken, you have always been extremely helpful.

And others for getting back on track.

 

Having followed computers for most of my life, plenty of things came and went. I agree on the the shortcomings and attitudes in and around the various companies and their products. Not a week goes by that an Apple decision doesn't frustrate me, in some way, in that a product does ~90% of what I want it to do. I/O options, repairability and no cloud are pretty big with me.

/ no bubble

/ no koolaid

 

LOL, well played . . .

 

Moving forward I will endeavor to try to limit my use of iSheep, Kool Aid Drinker, etc. The operative word is TRY as many times topics like these bring out the frustration and complete disdain I have for products / services which are hobbled from the onset. 

 

Back on topic: Apple Home Kit has lots of potential in the future but in its current iteration and deployment not so much. Its interesting to note absolutely nothing has been heard in the other camps of Alljoyn, Brillo, Weave, and what ever Samsungs new HA (Not Tizen) protocol that is still being hammered out.

 

From watching and reading every article that relates to HA these days I can't help think and compare this current era mirrors the whole Beta vs VHS wars.

 

Or the whole DVD wars, DAT, DCC, etc . . .

 

Lots of folks are thinking up of all kinds of ways to integrate - While others are hell bent in just pushing their idea of HA. Then, we have the general public who are completely lost in the mess and can't decide on what protocol, frame work, what ever to purchase / support.

 

This is why I said way up above its wiser to sit this out and purchase industry known and proven technology. It doesn't matter if your the X-10 guy vs Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, etc. All of this gear is out there and is field proven in their respect field which I say just go out and enjoy it now.

 

The other parts of the puzzle are slowly making positive headway like Amazon Echo.

 

In time big hitters like Google will come out with their idea and method of voice hardware. This will really force Amazon to step up to the plate and reconsider companies like UDI in their funding program. Its clear to me when large companies don't allow known and proven companies like UDI participate in the sand box.

 

It simply means they aren't serious and the people at the top who manage such programs are mindless fools. This pretty much applies to any company that is hell bent in sticking it to the consumer via locked in and proprietary hardware / services. Sadly the market is saturated with *Also Rands* of products with some of the dumbest names ever created.

 

Never mind bad hardware and even worse service after the sale support!

 

My Teken crystal ball guess is you will start to see a few companies leave the HA market place regardless of frame work supported. While the market will also start to see the many *Look at me* companies that yet again offer another cloud hosted service which the hardware is 100% reliant upon for operating?!?!

 

As of this writing there is no less than 25 new *Cloud Hosted Services* which the hardware is bound to.

 

That's right 25 freaking new products which are all tied to the happy cloud. My fears of stupid being pushed so far where its the norm has been fully realized in the last six years. Since 2016 is almost finished I expect five more to pop up in the not too distant future.

 

Apple Home Kit = Meh

Brillo = Meh

Weave = Meh

AllJoyn = Meh

Samsung = Meh

 

This reply encompasses more than 1000 words please accept my humble apologies. Trying very hard to receive my 5500 words allocated by Gary Funk.

[G W]

I've noticed your messages are less ranting and more on target. I've even been reading most of them.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[paulbates]

My Teken crystal ball guess is you will start to see a few companies leave the HA market place regardless of frame work supported. While the market will also start to see the many *Look at me* companies that yet again offer another cloud hosted service which the hardware is 100% reliant upon for operating?!?!

 

As of this writing there is no less than 25 new *Cloud Hosted Services* which the hardware is bound to.

 

That's right 25 freaking new products which are all tied to the happy cloud. My fears of stupid being pushed so far where its the norm has been fully realized in the last six years. Since 2016 is almost finished I expect five more to pop up in the not too distant future.

 

Apple Home Kit = Meh

Brillo = Meh

Weave = Meh

AllJoyn = Meh

Samsung = Meh

 

Yep, its still not shaken out.  And the path to integrating them leads to only one place (potentially outside of ISY Nodeservers)... more cloud. There will be services conceptually like IFTTT; services to tie those HA protocols together. Rube Goldberg would have been proud....

[Scottmichaelj]

LOL, well played . . .

 

Moving forward I will endeavor to try to limit my use of iSheep, Kool Aid Drinker, etc. The operative word is TRY as many times topics like these bring out the frustration and complete disdain I have for products / services which are hobbled from the onset.

 

Back on topic: Apple Home Kit has lots of potential in the future but in its current iteration and deployment not so much. Its interesting to note absolutely nothing has been heard in the other camps of Alljoyn, Brillo, Weave, and what ever Samsungs new HA (Not Tizen) protocol that is still being hammered out.

 

From watching and reading every article that relates to HA these days I can't help think and compare this current era mirrors the whole Beta vs VHS wars.

 

Or the whole DVD wars, DAT, DCC, etc . . .

 

Lots of folks are thinking up of all kinds of ways to integrate - While others are hell bent in just pushing their idea of HA. Then, we have the general public who are completely lost in the mess and can't decide on what protocol, frame work, what ever to purchase / support.

 

This is why I said way up above its wiser to sit this out and purchase industry known and proven technology. It doesn't matter if your the X-10 guy vs Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, etc. All of this gear is out there and is field proven in their respect field which I say just go out and enjoy it now.

 

The other parts of the puzzle are slowly making positive headway like Amazon Echo.

 

In time big hitters like Google will come out with their idea and method of voice hardware. This will really force Amazon to step up to the plate and reconsider companies like UDI in their funding program. Its clear to me when large companies don't allow known and proven companies like UDI participate in the sand box.

 

It simply means they aren't serious and the people at the top who manage such programs are mindless fools. This pretty much applies to any company that is hell bent in sticking it to the consumer via locked in and proprietary hardware / services. Sadly the market is saturated with *Also Rands* of products with some of the dumbest names ever created.

 

Never mind bad hardware and even worse service after the sale support!

 

My Teken crystal ball guess is you will start to see a few companies leave the HA market place regardless of frame work supported. While the market will also start to see the many *Look at me* companies that yet again offer another cloud hosted service which the hardware is 100% reliant upon for operating?!?!

 

As of this writing there is no less than 25 new *Cloud Hosted Services* which the hardware is bound to.

 

That's right 25 freaking new products which are all tied to the happy cloud. My fears of stupid being pushed so far where its the norm has been fully realized in the last six years. Since 2016 is almost finished I expect five more to pop up in the not too distant future.

 

Apple Home Kit = Meh

Brillo = Meh

Weave = Meh

AllJoyn = Meh

Samsung = Meh

 

This reply encompasses more than 1000 words please accept my humble apologies. Trying very hard to receive my 5500 words allocated by Gary Funk.

I take offense to iSheep comments and that Apple products are hobbled. You yourself said people on this forum have high intelligence so why would me using an Apple product suddenly make me stupid? While I agree and understand that iOS is not open, I have not been held back in anyway on my Mac desktops or laptops.

 

I havent commented yet on this HomeKit thread but I think the real underlying reason people think its needed is because the shortcomings with MobiLinc even on the iOS side and the "appearance of tight and easy integration". I *think all people are really after is a central home hub they can control via voice or whatnot that works with all of their devices.

 

The ISY gives you the "impression" it can be a "whole home hub" to talk to all your devices, but this is not true. I myself thought this for years while at the same time as I added devices became frustrated that the ISY couldn't control them. I would urge people to think of the ISY as just another device in the home that happens to work with a FEW other products and look into something like OpenHAB (http://www.openhab.org) to get the integration for ALL your products. Disclaimer: I have not used OpenHAB - I have an RTI remote control system that I am slowly moving everything I own to their platform which is becoming my "whole home hub".

 

/Trying to get my posts to 1000 words to irritate Gary and challenge Teken

[Teken]

I take offense to iSheep comments and that Apple products are hobbled. You yourself said people on this forum have high intelligence so why would me using an Apple product suddenly make me stupid? While I agree and understand that iOS is not open, I have not been held back in anyway on my Mac desktops or laptops.

 

I havent commented yet on this HomeKit thread but I think the real underlying reason people think its needed is because the shortcomings with MobiLinc even on the iOS side and the "appearance of tight and easy integration". I *think all people are really after is a central home hub they can control via voice or whatnot that works with all of their devices.

 

The ISY gives you the "impression" it can be a "whole home hub" to talk to all your devices, but this is not true. I myself thought this for years while at the same time as I added devices became frustrated that the ISY couldn't control them. I would urge people to think of the ISY as just another device in the home that happens to work with a FEW other products and look into something like OpenHAB (http://www.openhab.org) to get the integration for ALL your products. Disclaimer: I have not used OpenHAB - I have an RTI remote control system that I am slowly moving everything I own to their platform which is becoming my "whole home hub".

 

/Trying to get my posts to 1000 words to irritate Gary and challenge Teken

 

LOL, my dear friend what more can be said after such an amazing display of written Kung Fu? The force is strong with in you young Sky Walker . . .

 

I've been interested in Open HAB for awhile but for what ever reason(s) haven't taken the time to invest and review. My views regarding the ISY Series Controller is more effort needs to be made where a off the shelf image for RPi be made. I see this as a win win situation not only for the consumer but for long term revenue and growth for UDI.

 

The company (UDI) can offer an entire RPi preconfigured with both Node / Polyglot. Or offer the image file of the very same that can be purchased similar to the current method. The only difference is it would include all of the base and advanced libraries for things like Sono's, TSTAT, NEST, etc.

 

They would also be responsibly for feature updates / upgrades to the code.

 

The consumer would go into this knowing full well (This RPi) is solely dedicated for tight integration and extension of the ISY Series Controller.

 

The simple fact this hasn't been done surprises me and quite frankly irritates me to no end. At some point - not enough time, resources, finances, etc isn't going to cut it. The team found the time to build and push out a server to support Amazon Echo / IFTTT.

 

This same investment in time must also be set aside to do the very same for Nodes, Polyglot, etc. This will 110% garner attention to those thinking about migrating from Home Seer, Vera, Wink, Smartthings, etc. Strike the coals when its hot and don't squander this moment of opportunity!

 

Tangent Alert: I know last year there was talk about a Kick Starter / IndiGogo project. I would urge the company to consider pushing forward in this endeavor. As much as I respect Michel's business ethics about not charging anyone for a unfinished product / service.

 

There isn't a person in this forum or Interwebs who believes they would be shafted or cheated out of what is promised in the campaign. I would implore the entire UDI team to weigh into this specific request and consider this potential revenue stream.

 

My humble apologies Scott is pushing me way past the 1000 word limit - Yes truly its his fault Garry!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

 

I do very much appreciate all the feedback and input. In short, we have the whole spectrum from doom for UDI all the way up to Apple is horrible.

 

 

We cannot make everyone happy in the same way that neither Apple, nor Google, nor Microsoft, etc. can make everyone happy. As such, we will have to choose our battles and priorities and, currently, our first priority is to continue staying in business and the second is to stay focused on our technology.

 

For those of you who want HomeKit support, may I ask how much more are you willing to pay for an ISY (or some hardware extension thereto) and will you commit to it? Please note that from our initial estimates, we probably need at least $200K to have a robust solution. As such, please let me know if you are willing to start from $500.00 and more.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

And one more request: as much as I know this is a heated discussion and passions run high, please do be kind enough to refrain from personal attacks: thankfully, we all live in free societies and we are entitled to our own opinions and decisions. Not everyone loves Microsoft, not everyone loves Apple, not everyone loves Linux, not everyone loves Google, and, for sure, not everyone loves UDI. Being attacked for our views, opinions, and decisions is not only unproductive in the grand scheme of things (finding a solution) but also alienates those who are actually looking for a solution.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[larryllix]

Well said Michel and well noted.

 

Not being an Apple person myself, my wife lives on an iPad, and they do create SMOOOOOTH, but not hacker style open. To each his own.

 

I do keep a large supply of Preparation A for my Androids but...

 

The only downside I can see with Apple products is having to sheer the wool every time we charge it!

 

 

There got ya' back, Scott. Good one!

[mango]

Michael, thank you and where do I sign up?!

[Scottmichaelj]

LOL, my dear friend what more can be said after such an amazing display of written Kung Fu? The force is strong with in you young Sky Walker . . .

 

I've been interested in Open HAB for awhile but for what ever reason(s) haven't taken the time to invest and review. My views regarding the ISY Series Controller is more effort needs to be made where a off the shelf image for RPi be made. I see this as a win win situation not only for the consumer but for long term revenue and growth for UDI.

 

The company (UDI) can offer an entire RPi preconfigured with both Node / Polyglot. Or offer the image file of the very same that can be purchased similar to the current method. The only difference is it would include all of the base and advanced libraries for things like Sono's, TSTAT, NEST, etc.

 

They would also be responsibly for feature updates / upgrades to the code.

 

The consumer would go into this knowing full well (This RPi) is solely dedicated for tight integration and extension of the ISY Series Controller.

 

The simple fact this hasn't been done surprises me and quite frankly irritates me to no end. At some point - not enough time, resources, finances, etc isn't going to cut it. The team found the time to build and push out a server to support Amazon Echo / IFTTT.

 

This same investment in time must also be set aside to do the very same for Nodes, Polyglot, etc. This will 110% garner attention to those thinking about migrating from Home Seer, Vera, Wink, Smartthings, etc. Strike the coals when its hot and don't squander this moment of opportunity!

 

Tangent Alert: I know last year there was talk about a Kick Starter / IndiGogo project. I would urge the company to consider pushing forward in this endeavor. As much as I respect Michel's business ethics about not charging anyone for a unfinished product / service.

 

There isn't a person in this forum or Interwebs who believes they would be shafted or cheated out of what is promised in the campaign. I would implore the entire UDI team to weigh into this specific request and consider this potential revenue stream.

 

My humble apologies Scott is pushing me way past the 1000 word limit - Yes truly its his fault Garry!

Ooohh you got in trouble! Or was it me? Lol

 

So I got a few PMs from friends here on the forum about my, Teken and Michels posts. It seems it was taken too seriously but in no way was I arguing with Teken, I was just busting his chops and he knows this, as well as digs to GaryFunk. Not sure if there's a more lighthearted emoji showing me joking then the (goofy face?)

 

Now that's hopefully cleared up, on to the more serious stuff. Before I begin please know I have not used OpenHAB, I like/own Apple devices but also PC/Android too, I own a AV custom integration company that installs UDI/Insteon products for most of our clients. Ok enough of the disclaimer, but hopefully this gives people perspective where I come from. I am trying to generalizing here from a high level on purpose. I am not trying to tell UDI what to do.

 

First I think as a company UDI needs to decide for themselves what they want from the ISY and what they want to give us as customers. Is the intent to be a "whole home hub" or just to control Insteon and/or ZWave products? Could it be things were added long ago like WOL/Network resources, the Weather module, then most recently IFTTT, Polygot and Amazon Echo now starting to give us (customers) different expectations of what the ISY is versus what UDI wants? Maybe UDI gave us nodes and Polygot to appease us and our own greed and hunger to connect to other devices, the ISY grew to now something everyone want things to work with UDI and now UDI should do this or that.

 

Secondly I believe a majority of users here want something that's open, agnostic and not tied to the cloud, unless they choose. Most want to move away from Java, want v5 with Nodes. This brings up another serious question that goes back to my point above, what does UDI want? I agree with Teken and most here that we need either updated ISY hardware or IF UDI chooses to, allow additional hardware like a RPI, which in the past people didn't really want but now seems people have changed their mind and do want. Maybe this is because our greed for more connected devices?

 

If UDI does choose to support another device like a RPI what programming language should really it be done in? I am not a dev but been told by my personal friends who are and work for companies like Microsoft, Amazon and the like tell me Python is not a good choice and it should be something else. Which touches on Nodelink - we want open but IOGuy will not release or open his code, so why are we all using it? If something happens where would we be if NodeLink stops? Think of how powerful NodeLink has become, back to square one. Also to depend on one guy to do all the work his has done is simply amazing. Shouldn't we be making all ISY Nodes open sourced? I understand this is not popular to say be feel its truthful. IOGuy could take his ball home and we are all left with nothing.

 

I have no affiliation with openHAB nor have I ever used it but based on their website they are trying to make everything agnostic and open while connecting to as many devices as possible. Why not move to something like openHAB and make the all the ISYs features open to openHAB. Then we have the best of both worlds. A "whole home hub" via OHAB that allows us access to all our devices, something completely open and agnostic, removing the responsibility and the silliness of UDI adding devices and concentrating on v5 with one Node. I am not suggesting openHAB as the solution only as an example.

 

Then the all this HomeKit, NodeLink, Polygot, Insteon HUB, MobiLinc, etc discussions can all stop. The talented devs here could join OHAB and make the platform there better which in turn would make it better here. UDI can do what they do best hopefully getting us v5 out while working on their "energy management" RATES. This would also allow people that don't have or want to take the time to still be able to have all their devices connected without learning how to install each Node etc.

 

/So Gary/Teken hows that for 1000 words?

[larryllix]

Ooohh you got in trouble! Or was it me? Lol

So I got a few PMs from friends here on the forum about my, Teken and Michels posts. It seems it was taken too seriously but in no way was I arguing with Teken, I was just busting his chops and he knows this, as well as digs to GaryFunk. Not sure if there's a more lighthearted emoji showing me joking then the (goofy face?)

<snippage>

/So Gary/Teken hows that for 1000 words?

Well stated and good clear up of confusion here but...

 

Despite your 1000 word rant and that long shaggy hair that needs to be **SHEARED**...

You will never be the polished branch manager that Teken has become!

[Teken]

Ooohh you got in trouble! Or was it me? Lol

 

So I got a few PMs from friends here on the forum about my, Teken and Michels posts. It seems it was taken too seriously but in no way was I arguing with Teken, I was just busting his chops and he knows this, as well as digs to GaryFunk. Not sure if there's a more lighthearted emoji showing me joking then the (goofy face?)

 

 

/So Gary/Teken hows that for 1000 words?

 

 

.

 

Despite your 1000 word rant and that long shaggy hair that needs to be **SHEARED**...

You will never be the polished branch manager that Teken has become!

 

Yup, its true my Sunday's wouldn't be the same with out two of the best people on this board. 

 

Truly this is a first - I am below the 1000 word count!

[jtara92101]

I made a suggestion a ways back (not sure on which thread) that UDI might package a Rpi (or similar - in any case an ARM processor) in a bigger box along with the current board, and perhaps with the ability to have more than one daughter boards. (So, for example, could have both ZWave and Zigbee at the same time.)

 

I'll take his "yes, sir!" response as a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge we're working on it", rather than as a light-hearted mocking of our outrageous demands.  And realize full well that it wouldn't be prudent for them to talk too much about future plans. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

 

In any case, it seems an obvious solution. It would be a good marketing move to package together, as it would then not give the impression of ISY running out of steam and needing extra help from a more powerful processor. And, anyway, this is the way most consumer devices are done today - multiple processors and boards performing specific tasks. Think of the current ISY board like the "baseband processor" that handles the cell phone part of any modern smart phone, and that is very proprietary and "hands off" for outside developers.

 

ISY started as an accessory for Insteon networks. But in the mean time, the industry has grown, and there are many alternative choices to Insteon, and so the built-in port for the Insteon PLM and ONE slot for another technology in the long run is not going to cut it. But I am not telling them anything they do not already know.

 

 I am not a dev but been told by my personal friends who are and work for companies like Microsoft, Amazon and the like tell me Python is not a good choice and it should be something else

 

 

 

I AM a dev. For the past 40 years.

 

Which "something else"?

 

If you talk to Google, they will say Go.

 

If you talk to Microsoft, they will say some kind of twisted Basic.

 

They are just promoting their own pet languages.

 

Python is used to create the back-end for UIs in a HUGE number of consumer devices. Can you think of an open-source router software that DOESN'T use Python? Well, it's ditto for most of the closed-source ones too. Other consumer devices, notably TVs use Python. It is SO easy to create little servers for the UI for for REST interfaces, as there are great, mature libraries for this. I say this even though I am NOT a big Python fan, though I have programmed Python professionally. (I did some work in Python talking to the remote configuration/diagnostic interface on some credit card terminals.) Not a fan of indentation as syntax, LOL. But I can live with it, and it has the advantage of coming baked-in to every Linux distribution.

 

I'd prefer to use Ruby myself, but that's just me. Ruby's not nearly as popular. But it runs just fine on my Asus router.

 

Javascript would bring a huge pool of potential (but, largely, poorly-trained, and unprofessional) developers. It's not Javascript's fault - it is actually a wonderful language, but the typical Javascript developer has NO clue what it is capable of, and only uses it for "glue" and programs by cut-and-paste and guesswork.  node.js and it's universe are promising, and I have used them. They are a bit immature yet vs. Python or Ruby as a backend platform for services. Perhaps some will find this off-the-wall, but I think sometimes quality of software written in a given language is as much a function of the kinds of developers the language attracts, as it is of the language itself.

 

$500? That's probably a bit outside of what *I* would pay for an ISY. However, I don't think I am the typical ISY user. I think the typical ISY user paid thousands to a professional installer for their over-the-top showhome, probably doesn't know what ISY or UDI are, and could even stand a $1000 price tag. (They might fume if they have to replace a failed one... "What?! For THAT LITTLE BLACK BOX?!". Fortunately, they are reliable little beasts!

 

If UDI were to pursue this route, I think a bold thing to do would be to open-source the rPi side. Hobbyists like me could supply their own Rpi, router, or desktop. which would augment an upgraded ISY that has multiple accessory slots. There might be some rPi modules that are closed-source, and UDI would have some risk of pirating that they don't have with their locked-down ISY. But they would still have the locked-down ISY, which contains a HUGE amount of proprietary and essential code for talking to specific devices.

 

Installers would more likely opt for a neat, one-box solution. I can immediately think of one proprietary module for the rPi side, which would be remote configuration/diagnostics for installers. (Pretty much just what I did for the credit card terminals - they maintain thousands of terminals from a central location.)

 

Has UDI ever done a Kickstarter? Would they consider it, I wonder?

 

Perhaps may seem a bit off-topic, but also dovetails with the Homekit issue. These HA different architectures will come and go. I think UDI could use some agility to deal with them as that happens. I've offered some ideas in that direction.

[mwester]

re: language -- I agree completely with jtara02101's characterization of the alternatives to Python.

 

I'll also mention that there's not really a need to argue about the language too much.  The *reference* implementation needs to be in a specific language, of course, but many products have sets of language bindings that permit developers with different preferences and skills to contribute.  In order to prove this to myself (in regards to UDI's Polyglot), I've implemented a polyglot node server almost completely in Perl (almost, because currently Polyglot requires a 3-line Python "shim" to launch the Perl code -- but other than those three lines, it's entirely Perl).

 

I also agree with the rPi approach.  With alternate language bindings, and with an open platform like the rPi, one opens up the entire space to a broader group of users and contributers.  And that's exactly the demographic we ISY users are -- a broad, diverse group who likes to tinker and share our creations and ideas.

 

Earlier in this thread I was rather excited that perhaps there IS a way to integrate homekit with the ISY; alas it seems my optimism was unfounded.  That's why I just don't see how homekit brings any value to the general ISY community (although it may benefit the Apple users, that is true), at least for right now.  Perhaps that will change.

[MWareman]

 

 

To me, HomeKit is relevant because it sets up the infrastructure necessary to move home automation beyond the techies and hackers.

 

Only if they are an exclusively Apple household.

 

Once Homekit is supported on Android and Windows Phone then this may be a valid argument. Until then, it's constrained to those that use Apple - and most of the world still dosn't.

[jasont]

What's the difference between having an Amazon-powered Alexa device as an option for front-end control/status of an existing ISY installation, vs an Apple-powered iOS device being able to do the same thing?

 

In neither case is anyone required to purchase/install (nor does the ISY have to be able to directly control) any Alexa or HomeKit wall switch, motion detector, water sensor, etc in order to get any value from the solution.

 

In both cases, it can simply be an option available for ISY owners wanting to control their already-built ISY installation, chock-full of whatever Insteon/X10, Zwave and Zigbee devices (automated by the ISY) that meet their needs.

[G W]

What's the difference between having an Amazon-powered Alexa device as an option for front-end control/status of an existing ISY installation, vs an Apple-powered iOS device being able to do the same thing?

 

In neither case is anyone required to purchase/install (nor does the ISY have to be able to directly control) any Alexa or HomeKit wall switch, motion detector, water sensor, etc in order to get any value from the solution.

 

In both cases, it can simply be an option available for ISY owners wanting to control their already-built ISY installation, chock-full of whatever Insteon/X10, Zwave and Zigbee devices (automated by the ISY) that meet their needs.

The difference is that Amazon plays nice.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk