Breaker panel craziness

[ravedog]

Hey everyone. Just trying to harden up communications. Still having some reliability issues with all the stuff living over at the pool equipment. Bought a few access points.

 

Here's the problem.

 

We have 3 panels (well 4 if you count the mini box out by the pool)

 

Outside panel. Main breakers. Also contains one breaker strictly for everything by the pool (pool equip, valves, lights, landscape lighting, sprinklers and god knows what else).

 

Inside panel handles about a third of the house.

 

A new panel was installed for the generator with a transfer switch.

 

Plm and most house are on genny panel well call it that). A few more devices on the inside panel. And the pool and landscape lighting on the outside box.

 

There's no way to put any access points or anything on the outside box as most things on that are big ticket items.

 

So how do I make sure stuff gets thru. I mean it is more or less but most communications to any device out in the pool area show hops left 0.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

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[larryllix]

I have my ISY within a few feet of my main panel, right beside my noisy co-gen inverter, and a plug-in dual-band module within a few feet of the panel in my shop building. The building is coated in metal foil insulation and a steel roof so I know RF doesn't get there well. That works very well for me. I assume the powerline gets the signal there for that zone.

 

I have never bothered with Access Points and never have a problem communicating between the two. My X10 modules have big problems at the far ends of the house, especially  when the inverter is running. I have to avoid some receptacles for X10 usage but the Insteon units always work everywhere. I have had a few misses in the last year with Insteon but they always heal with a query.

[paulbates]

Its going to be less about number of panels, and more about signal, distance and noise.

 

Signal: In general, the main panel to the house is the center of the wiring network, all roads lead there. The phases being bridged right there is a key concept. It can be with a signalinc phase coupler, or 2 rf bridging devices. Also locate your PLM very close to there to distribute the signal evenly across your powergrid. If the plm is on a further out outlet, its signal has to make it to the panel and then to more remote destinations.

 

Noise and distance:. The signal recommendation above covers good communications to the majority of devices. and insteon devices repeat through the powerline so that helps. Having said that, distance or noise, or both will be a problem in specific spots. This where best practices end and field engineering takes over.

 

I would guess that pool equipment is further away and noisy at the same time. Even if you could put a dual band device there, it may not be a silver bullet to the hop count. I would find a way to address the noise. There are a variety of filters. I can report very good results with this device. It wires between the hot and neutral and dampens the noise at the source. I have 2 success stories with this device:

 

1) 2 older, noisier furnace units near my panel that were literally PLM killers. Since installing these inside the furnace unit at its power source, I've had the same PLM since about this time 2011

 

2) low voltage lighting that I wanted to control with keypadlincs. The transformers overwhelmed the circuits with noise when they were turned on. Installing these filters at the culprit transformers got it working. Its not perfect. Every once in a long while one of two lights in an insteon group will take a second longer to turn off, but they always turn off.

 

Since load doesn't pass through the XPNR, there is not load rating so pumps, motors, transformers are all good to address with it. You can get them cheaper on amazon, etc.

[ravedog]

This is all great information. Another piece of information:

 

The pool equipment area contains:

Insteon 240vac relay

2 inline relays

2 inline dimmers

1 plug in appliance

 

And 1 Smartenit ezio8sa relay

Outputs:

3 24vac solenoids (valves)

heater trigger (open/close)

2 12v triggers for an led indicator light

 

Inputs:

2 12v triggers from heater to determine status

 

All the insteon modules work every time. Never a problem.

The ezio8 is the problem. Occasionally commands don't go thru (forcing a query will show its true status). And the inputs rarely send the signal back to the ISY unless it's queried). So I'm at a loss on that one.

 

Unfortunately the ezio8 is the most critical piece in terms of "needing to know its true state)

 

 

 

 

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[paulbates]

Based on what you have I would guess that the EZIO is more sensitive to some noise source than the other devices. You have a number of suspects on your list.

 

I would suggest some testing.  Come up with a baseline of failures as it sits right now. Start with the EZIO itself:

The EZIOsa connects to the PLM with a a Cat 5 patch to the PLM, Can a longer cable be tried and move the PLM to other locations? See if that helps, if its possible at all. You will want to try it with all of the stuff running, pumps, dimmers, lights, etc. Whatever might be noisy.

 

If nothing comes of that, it's  find the noise and filter it. Start with everything off and work your way up to turning on everything that makes noise (motors, yard lights and other transformers). See if its chronic, or if it happens only in the presence of certain things being on. It would be good to know what the dimmers are dimming... good old incandescent? LEDs?

 

If it ends up being something noisy, use a plugin filter if you can, or an XPNR. If it were me, I would find the noise and filter it. I know from experience that PLMs don't like noise.

 

I have my own version of this quest. Its not fun, but this is the only way I know how to kill it

[Teken]

Its going to be less about number of panels, and more about signal, distance and noise.

 

Signal: In general, the main panel to the house is the center of the wiring network, all roads lead there. The phases being bridged right there is a key concept. It can be with a signalinc phase coupler, or 2 rf bridging devices. Also locate your PLM very close to there to distribute the signal evenly across your powergrid. If the plm is on a further out outlet, its signal has to make it to the panel and then to more remote destinations.

 

Noise and distance:. The signal recommendation above covers good communications to the majority of devices. and insteon devices repeat through the powerline so that helps. Having said that, distance or noise, or both will be a problem in specific spots. This where best practices end and field engineering takes over.

 

I would guess that pool equipment is further away and noisy at the same time. Even if you could put a dual band device there, it may not be a silver bullet to the hop count. I would find a way to address the noise. There are a variety of filters. I can report very good results with this device. It wires between the hot and neutral and dampens the noise at the source. I have 2 success stories with this device:

 

1) 2 older, noisier furnace units near my panel that were literally PLM killers. Since installing these inside the furnace unit at its power source, I've had the same PLM since about this time 2011

 

2) low voltage lighting that I wanted to control with keypadlincs. The transformers overwhelmed the circuits with noise when they were turned on. Installing these filters at the culprit transformers got it working. Its not perfect. Every once in a long while one of two lights in an insteon group will take a second longer to turn off, but they always turn off.

 

Since load doesn't pass through the XPNR, there is not load rating so pumps, motors, transformers are all good to address with it. You can get them cheaper on amazon, etc.

 

Paul,

 

Did you actually install the XPNR inside a standard sized outlet box? Any install pictures of yours in place would be great as it would help me gauge if they will fit into my (massively stuffed) J Box's! 

[ravedog]

Yikes. There is a 24vac transformer in the same box as the other stuff. As far as moving the plm, not possible as there is no where else to put it.... Out there. I can temporarily add a longer cat 5 and extension cord to the plm and move it away from the box for testing purposes, if it solves it, then I'll try to figure out how to physically move it.... God! Another box out there just for the plm!

 

ADDED: Here's the box that houses most things. The bigger pic is all the equip:

From left to right:

Controller box (inset pic)

Main power box (and old pool timer disabled)

Sprinkler controller

Street lamps power box (just inline relay)

Low voltage transformer

 

 

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[paulbates]

Hi Teken

 

This was all a while ago, no pictures and this stuff is kinda hard to get to.

 

Its best that it be next to the actual device. In the case of the furnaces, i took the covers off, attached the XPNR to the main power terminals and tiewrapped the XPNR inside of a service box with other electrical connections.

 

In the case of low voltage lighting, the standard box was there. I tucked an inlinelinc and one of these in the box. It was "comfy", but fit without force and they had room to breath. It never would have happened if it had to share the space with a switchlinc.

 

I'm thinking for things like pool heaters and pumps there would be room in the chassises, if not, attach an electrical box to it .

 

If its a light fixture, you should be able to put the XPNR on top where the fixture wires to the house.

 

What are you trying to silence?

 

Paul

 

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[paulbates]

Hi RD

 

Yes, try pulling the 24 volt transformer and testing too. Streetlights, depending what they are, can be pretty noisy too. Depending what you find, some XPNRs can probably wiggle in there. They need to right to the feed of whatever it is, on load side of the switch and switches red wire. If possible put them in the streetlight housing, etc.

 

 

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[Teken]

Hi Teken

 

This was all a while ago, no pictures and this stuff is kinda hard to get to.

 

Its best that it be next to the actual device. In the case of the furnaces, i took the covers off, attached the XPNR to the main power terminals and tiewrapped the XPNR inside of a service box with other electrical connections.

 

In the case of low voltage lighting, the standard box was there. I tucked an inlinelinc and one of these in the box. It was "comfy", but fit without force and they had room to breath. It never would have happened if it had to share the space with a switchlinc.

 

I'm thinking for things like pool heaters and pumps there would be room in the chassises, if not, attach an electrical box to it .

 

If its a light fixture, you should be able to put the XPNR on top where the fixture wires to the house.

 

What are you trying to silence?

 

Paul

 

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Oh, nothing at the moment! 

 

Just keeping my eyes open for some useful tools for any future installations that might require this little device. I was really hoping to find some old stock of the Leviton 78XX filters but they are no longer being made. 

[ravedog]

Hi RD

 

Yes, try pulling the 24 volt transformer and testing too. Streetlights, depending what they are, can be pretty noisy too. Depending what you find, some XPNRs can probably wiggle in there. They need to right to the feed of whatever it is, on load side of the switch and switches red wire. If possible put them in the streetlight housing, etc.

 

 

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The street lights as we call them are just 120 lamps. No transformer or anything like that.

 

When I was building the new box ironically I was wondering if the 24vac would cause noise... If I moved it to its own box, how far would it have to be?

 

At this point since it's just the PLM that's flakey, I'm thinking I'll do the extension cord test, then if it works better, just give the PLM it's own box.

AND YOU GET A BOX AND YOU GET A BOX AND YOU GET A BOX...

 

 

Oh for your amusement: here's the old x10 clusterfun.

 

 

 

 

 

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[ravedog]

Paul

you mention the XPNR. IT SAYS X10 in the information. Will this work or hamper insteon?

 

Also the pool pump is 240... Not sure if this will work with that.

 

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[Xathros]

The noise referred to here is on the powerline not RF so physical distance is not necessarily going to help.  Moving the PLM to a different circuit may help. This is what you need to test with an extension cord.  Additionally, noise isn't the only possible problem.  Signal attenuation is another major player with comm issues.  Some devices have noise filtering capacitors across the line input that simply absorb Insteon and X10 signals.  Such devices also should be isolated from the line with a filter.  I do not know if the XPNR is suitable for this or not.

 

-Xathros

[paulbates]

Hi RD

 

The way the filter works is blocking out everything around the frequency used to send the powerline signal. Insteon's frequency in the powerline is 136mhz and x10 is 120mhz. They are very close and within the tolerance of the filter. Filtering out junk outside of these frequencies should help if this is the problem

 

It may not work 100% of the time, but for me things significantly improved to where its rare for it be a problem. Its worth testing first to make sure this is really the problem.

 

If you go with it, you'll need two filters for each 220 device, one for each hot back to the neutral. The need to install them in the device or at a minimum on the load side of the switch, going directly to the device.

 

The pdf here gives a good overview of what to do

 

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/XPNR

 

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[ravedog]

Could these be attached to the breaker that feeds the pump. Another breaker feeds my whole box.

 

 

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[stusviews]

INSTEON and X10 powerline frequencies are close enough that a filter for one is effective as a filter for the other, so an XPNR will work if line filtering is what's needed.

[stusviews]

Could these be attached to the breaker that feeds the pump. Another breaker feeds my whole box.

 

 

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No, the instructions indicate to not install at a circuit breaker, The filter can be installed between the line or load side of the controlling device (e.g., switch, relay, etc.) and the neutral.

[paulbates]

agreed, do not install at breaker.

 

 

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[Teken]

I believe the install manual indicates it should be installed on the HOT / Live leg and neutral, not on the load side.

[paulbates]

Hi Teken,

 

Good point, I was talking from a switch perspective but didn't clarify that. It should be:

 

Power source --> insteon switch --> filter --> controlled device

 

It goes between the insteon switch and the thing its controlling, and its better the closer it is the the controlled device

 

Paul

 

 

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[larryllix]

The way the filter works is blocking out everything around the frequency used to send the powerline signal. Insteon's frequency in the powerline is 136mhz and x10 is 120mhz.

Should be 120 kHz and 131.65 kHz.  120 MHz probably wouldn't travel  down a powerline very far.

[ravedog]

Thank you.

 

 

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