INSTEON vs Z-Wave

[jch]

I have a large INSTEON installation, that I am in general quite happy with.  I am curious about Z-Wave as it would provide more options and expanded functionality.

 

One issue with INSTEON is that actions that involve the ISY have a noticeable delay.  I've always assumed that this is in part due to the serial connection to the PLM.  Is this improved with the built-in Z-Wave controller?

 

Are there other pros and cons?

 

Thanks.

 

Jeff 

[paulbates]

Jeff

 

There are advantages and optimizations for both insteon and zwave.

 

The underlying causes of the insteon delay would be worthy to explore, as well as the definition of noticeable; is it a second, several seconds, more?

 

There are ways to distribute the work to the insteon network, even from programs. Do you use scenes with your programs, or turn on devices individually? Can you give examples of programs that are slow?

Paul

[larryllix]

I use directly linked scenes between MSes and SwitchLincs and cannot detect any delay whatsoever.

 

Any signals  sent from ISY that operate Lights On where the delay could be seen have medium  ramps on the lights so that disguises those sequence delays and they all appear simultaneously anyway.

 

I have no Zwave and I am hoping to never have any. I do use three hub/bridges already for Hue and MiLights but delays are not obvious there, either as other Insteon lights are ramping simultaneously and again, it is not apparent.

[Teken]

Outside of more hardware choices and vendors should you decide to go the Z-Wave route. I would highly suggest you select the brands / hardware that offer instant status updating. Surprisingly, this feature is a Lutron proprietary patented feature which is set to expire in 2016.

 

Regardless of all the hype you hear about Z-Wave being more robust and being more reliable when compared to Insteon. Z-Wave requires just as many if not more repeating devices to strengthen its mesh network. Real world installs I have been involved in showed sometimes many devices had to be placed to allow the network to react and operate.

 

I find the whole healing, include / exclude, along with multi repeaters truly shocking and unbearable . . .

 

One client had nine Aeotec sirens installed just to get his Z-Wave mesh to operate which in my mind is really silly. Even though Insteon has its own faults and limits I've never had to install 9 random items just to make a system operate.

 

Bottom line: Z-Wave offers some great value items, products, and choices. Just don't get caught up in the hype its going to exceed Insteon or other HA protocols like ZigBee.

[lilyoyo1]

I use both Insteon and Zwave. Both have pros and cons. To be honest, in a full house, your not going to go wrong with either protocol. I do feel Insteon is easier to get started with for the reasons Teken pointed out along with a few other caveats such as not all controllers working with every device.

 

 Insteon is my foundation and Zwave fills in where Insteon lacks or I simply like their design better. Right now I use hue bulbs but I am interested to see how Aeon's new light bulb responds

[mwester]

I live in fear of the All-On problem that seems to be unique to ISY/Insteon installations -- so I use ZWave for my sensors, and Insteon devices for all else.  Aside from the slow response from the motion sensors, it works fine.

[jch]

@larrylix Direct control of scenes is quick, yes.  When I want to take advantage of the features of the ISY to do thinks I can not do with pure INSTEON is where things slow down.

 

For example, I have several different scenes in my office and kitchen/dining room.  If no lights are on, the motion sensors will cause a certain scene to trigger.  However, if there are lights on, the motion sensors will just reset the timer to turn that scene off.  This adds a second or two delay.

 

I also have actions triggered by fast-on on hallway switches.  The example here is that  at the top of the basement stairs I'm going all the way back to the laundry room and all the lights should be turned on.

 

I'm hoping that using a Z-Wave motion sensor I can reduce the delay in the first case.

[larryllix]

@larrylix Direct control of scenes is quick, yes.  When I want to take advantage of the features of the ISY to do thinks I can not do with pure INSTEON is where things slow down.

 

For example, I have several different scenes in my office and kitchen/dining room.  If no lights are on, the motion sensors will cause a certain scene to trigger.  However, if there are lights on, the motion sensors will just reset the timer to turn that scene off.  This adds a second or two delay.

 

I also have actions triggered by fast-on on hallway switches.  The example here is that  at the top of the basement stairs I'm going all the way back to the laundry room and all the lights should be turned on.

 

I'm hoping that using a Z-Wave motion sensor I can reduce the delay in the first case.

"However, if there are lights on, the motion sensors will just reset the timer to turn that scene off.  This adds a second or two delay."

 

I must be missing something here. How can  the timer to  turn off your lights changing be perceptible?

 

 

"I also have actions triggered by fast-on on hallway switches.  The example here is that  at the top of the basement stairs I'm going all the way back to the laundry room and all the lights should be turned on."

Sorry. This one seems to be missing enough information on unrelated facts.

 

Can you elaborate on either of these? Maybe one at a time. There are always other ways to "skin a cat."

[larryllix]

@larrylix Direct control of scenes is quick, yes.  When I want to take advantage of the features of the ISY to do thinks I can not do with pure INSTEON is where things slow down.

 

For example, I have several different scenes in my office and kitchen/dining room.  If no lights are on, the motion sensors will cause a certain scene to trigger.  However, if there are lights on, the motion sensors will just reset the timer to turn that scene off.  This adds a second or two delay.

....

OK My bad. I wasn't taking your first paragraph into consideration with your second paragraph.

 

Let's just take this case first.

 

What differences are you making in scenes that is dependant on lights being previously on?

[jch]

In my office I have several scenes.  Work, Darts, All On.  

 

When there is motion in my office and no lights are on the ISY will turn on the Work scene.

 

When any scene is turned on, a timer on the ISY is started.  When the motion sensor sends a motion detection event this timer is restarted.  When this timer expires all the lights are turned off.

 

So the upshot is that whatever scene is on will be turned off when I'm no longer in my office.  But the default scene is Work.

[larryllix]

In my office I have several scenes.  Work, Darts, All On.  

 

When there is motion in my office and no lights are on the ISY will turn on the Work scene.

 

When any scene is turned on, a timer on the ISY is started.  When the motion sensor sends a motion detection event this timer is restarted.  When this timer expires all the lights are turned off.

 

So the upshot is that whatever scene is on will be turned off when I'm no longer in my office.  But the default scene is Work.

The off timing can al be handled by ISY as you apparently already are doing.

 

What are the difference in the scenes Work, darts and All On?

 

Scenes can be modified by ISY. I am guessing that one scene with ISY control over it can do it all for you.

 

If you can make that happen then you can directly link your MS with your devices all containing the same scene and there will be no delay perceptible.

 

I do this now with many MS and light combinations in my house and modify the scenes at various times of the day so that when motion is detected they respond exactly the way I want them. 15% brightness at nights, 70% brightness during the day and 100% brightness when manually turn on and off.

 

In my Gathering room I use the ramp effect. While the main light is ramping on over 2-4 seconds ISY can ramp in other lights that your walking/visual  pattern won't require. In that case one light responds immediately 'cause it's direct linked, or wired to the SwitchLinc, and others activate with it depending on some ISY logic. Of course, when a multitude of white lights, and colour lamps and strips all around the perimeter, come on, people can't notice any difference in order if the main visual spot come on first.

 

    Sleight of hand = ISYmagic!

[jch]

I pretty much figured out that is what you are going to recommend and will give it a try.

 

Time to level up my ISY skillz!

[larryllix]

I pretty much figured out that is what you are going to recommend and will give it a try.

 

Time to level up my ISY skillz!

This is how I would do it.

Copy your programs that do the logic to decide what scene you would use.

Disable the old programs (copied ) and leave them there.

Change the copied programs to scene modifiers instead of device modifiers or some of both.

Drag your MS into one scene that you want to use, put MS into linking mode and let it update to having a direct link with the MS. Or let MS link fail now and link in with MS  restore later.

Your main MS trigger program will not need to turn the scene on so remove those lines.

 

 

Have a look at post #5 for an example of doing this. The scene adjust can be tricky as you have to select the MS as the scene. This took me a lot of head banging from Xathros to grasp this one.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16694-50-latency-question/?hl=%2Bdirect+%2Blink&do=findComment&comment=146852

[jch]

@larryllix I've implemented the auto part with day/night in my kitchen, however manual mode is much more complicated with six switches.  I'd like to discuss this, but I don't think this, or necessarily the 5.0 forum are the right place to go into detail.  Would it be How-Tos?  Or Q&A?

[larryllix]

@larryllix I've implemented the auto part with day/night in my kitchen, however manual mode is much more complicated with six switches.  I'd like to discuss this, but I don't think this, or necessarily the 5.0 forum are the right place to go into detail.  Would it be How-Tos?  Or Q&A?

I'm here.  It's your thread.  Fire away. Copy at least one line from my post to get my attention.

 

Can the six switches not just be put in the IF section as a bunch of "Ors". (the Boolean types )

[Pacificwing]

Going back to the original topic:

 

I was equipping a house from scratch. The house is about 1850 square feet and has 2 stories. Wood Frame. I figured a single controller would not range from one end of the house to the other (and it isn't practical to place the controller in the middle of the house at this point), so I would be dependent on a mesh for the range to cover my house. This means I had to commit to a single protocol.

 

I chose Z-wave, mainly because of the diversity of devices available for it. For instance, I wanted smart-locks that gave positional feedback. The only ones I could find for insteon required a separate transmitter and did not report the state of the lock. I'm still slowly developing my mesh (trying to add about 2 devices per month) and haven't had too many problems. It is clear the ISY is geared towards insteon. I hope they add more ZW options in the future. Particularly diagnostic tools.

 

So far I've not had a problem. That being said, I'm constantly reviewing my choice to go with ZW, so this topic interests me.

[stusviews]

I figured a single controller would not range from one end of the house to the other (and it isn't practical to place the controller in the middle of the house at this point), so I would be dependent on a mesh for the range to cover my house. This means I had to commit to a single protocol.

 

Like most others, including yourself, the center of the house location is just not feasible for us. I chose Insteon because of the diversity of devices available for it. Clearly, our distribution of diversities differ. Like you, I chose Z-Wave for our locks. That means that I need two networks, But, that's not a problem, Insteon has dual-band devices including repeaters and Z-Wavw has repeaters (actually, I prefer Gen 5 sirens). Both networks operate independently with no conflicts. usually referred to as BOB, best of both

[Pacificwing]

Like most others, including yourself, the center of the house location is just not feasible for us. I chose Insteon because of the diversity of devices available for it. Clearly, our distribution of diversities differ.

 

Well, I'm up in Canada. It is slim pickings for insteon dealers up here, especially if you are talking about local dealers. Furthermore, the CAD is weak right now which means ordering from the US is not as economical as it was a year or two ago.

 

Z-wave, on the other hand, is all over the place up here. Every major building store seems to sell some Z-wave devices. Ironically, the ISY with internal Z-wave can't be sold in Canada (something to do with FCC approval) at the moment, so I had to import the controller from the states. I guess you could say I have an illegal installation.

[stusviews]

IMO, that's more of a valid reason for selecting Z-Wave than you gave

 

Also, I've heard lot's of good stories about Menard's a Canadian Insteon company.

[Cormacs]

Aartech is an awesome Canadian insteon distributer. Usually I receive my order within 72 hours.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pacificwing]

Aartech is an awesome Canadian insteon distributer. Usually I receive my order within 72 hours.

 

 

I just placed my first order with them. Set to arrive tomorrow if UPS tracking is correct. Its nice to have a domestic dealer with that variety.

[gduprey]

I went with a mix.  Insteon is hard to beat for features and price for lighting and some sensors (leak, door, motion).  ZWave is hard to beat for things like locks and thermostats.  

 

I have about 70 Insteon lights, 20 insteon sensors (doors/motion/leak), 2 zwave thermostats, 2 zwave Kiwikset door locks and 10 Zwave temp/humidity sensors in my primary home.  Insteon light controllers are generally cheaper, have more features (like native scenes) and and immediately report manual changes back to the controller (big deal for creating more subtle and complex automation).  Most ZWave light controllers are expensive, do not have scenes and do not report manual changes (i.e. someone turning them on).  There are some that have all that, but they are rarer and more expensive.

 

As for locks and thermostats, there are just many more options with zwave than Insteon.  I use the Kwikset 914 (10 button keypad) and love them.  I also use the CT100 thermostat -- simple, cheap and reliable.  If you do not have many ZWave devices, it may be worth getting a few ZWave repeater modules and plugging them in around the house (firms up the mesh and they are pretty small).

I originally went with a hybrid arrangement -- ISY managing insteon, Vera/MCV for the ZWave stuff and the ISY plugin on the Vera to "merge" the two.  As time has gone on, the Vera has become the single weakest and least-reliable piece of of my setup.

 

As it happens, I also am setting up a small condo for where I work.  This time, I went with the ISY w/Zwave support. Only about 15 insteon lights, 4 sensors, 1 zwave thermostat and 1 zwave kwikset lock.  So far, it's been rock solid. 

 

Next step is getting the ZWave module for the ISY at the primary house and retiring the Vera (likely running it over with a large sized truck with nasty, chunky tires and possibly dropping it into a chipper/shredder for good measure).

 

The ISY is incredibly reliable.  Coupled with OpenHAB integration for complex stuff and I think it's a winning combo.

 

But in short, I feel each technology has it's strengths and the nice thing is you can choose both and get the best of both worlds.

 

Gerry

[Pacificwing]

I went with a mix.  Insteon is hard to beat for features and price for lighting and some sensors (leak, door, motion).  ZWave is hard to beat for things like locks and thermostats.  

 

I have about 70 Insteon lights, 20 insteon sensors (doors/motion/leak), 2 zwave thermostats, 2 zwave Kiwikset door locks and 10 Zwave temp/humidity sensors in my primary home.  Insteon light controllers are generally cheaper, have more features (like native scenes) and and immediately report manual changes back to the controller (big deal for creating more subtle and complex automation).  Most ZWave light controllers are expensive, do not have scenes and do not report manual changes (i.e. someone turning them on).  There are some that have all that, but they are rarer and more expensive.

 

Insteon does have its advantages. In Canada, the Z-wave switches are about $10 cheaper than the insteon stuff, but that might have to do with the fact that there are fewer insteon dealers. Supply and Demand. I've noticed the insteon stuff is cheaper and more readily available in the US.

 

I've also heard that some switches are not actually relays, but can be sensitive to particular types of loads (some switches can only support incandescent bulbs, for instance). It might have something to do with using triacs instead of solenoids. I'm not sure if there is any truth to this though. I've only seen it mentioned a few times in passing. I have noticed that the Z-wave switches I've purchased have line/load discriminating terminals. I assumed this was for load monitoring rather than polarity, but it does imply that it isn't a true solenoid. Are the insteon switches this way as well?

 

I've heard in passing that the insteon stuff is better suited for diverse loads (LEDs, CFLs, portable heaters, etc), but I have nothing to back that up.

[gduprey]

All wired-in insteon devices (triac-based dimmers and relay-based switches) differentiate line and load wires (presumably because the electronics in the switch need to be always on and attached to the line).  

 

So far, I've never seen an insteon "switch" (aka ON/OFF) that wasn't a relay (they use different model numbers for dimming (triac based) and non-dimming (relay based) units.  Unlike some other protocols like UPB, you can't designate a dimmer switch as non-dimming, so you have to physically pick which type you want when you purchase/install.

 

I've had good luck dimming LED units, but they aren't as perfect as dedicated LED based line dimmers (maybe 90% as good, more noticeable at very low-level dimming).

 

Gerry

[Cormacs]

Aartech amazed me again. Ordered two micro dimmers and a filterlinc yesterday at 10am they were at my door at 11am today.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk