INSTEON ALMOST BURNED MY HOUSE DOWN!!! Now ISY Problem

[elvisimprsntr]

So, tell ya what - I'll convert. I am officially at the altar, hereby repent, and shall amend my garage door routine.

Now that you are a disciple, spread the good word. If we can save at least one life from a horrible tragedy, our reward will be knowing we helped.

[madcodger]

I don't think the majority of the comments, and totally unrelated arguments and opinions in this thread represent "earnest exploration and problem solving".

 

Don't know why I posted back again, because I am just opening myself from being flamed. Never been so unwelcomed in a forum.

So, I don't really want to flame you, but your comments invite a response. I probably contributed to taking your thread to places that didn't directly address your problem, but it wasn't an intentional slight at you, and many of us did try to help. You even thanked a respondent early on, before you got bunched up about something. And when you go off about how you almost burned your house down, you do invite a general "safety in automation" discussion into whatever specific question you wanted answered.

 

What I think you fail to understand is that this is sort of the nature of a forum. It's a bit like a bunch of old guys sitting around having coffee or beers, frankly. One of us brings something up, the others actually do try to address it, but almost inevitably the topic strays a bit. And while it can get out of hand now and then, most of us sort of enjoy the conversation and if we don't, we just sort of wander into another one. I got called out by a guy in this thread, but he had a decent point. And while I may grumble and poke back a bit, I'm not packing up my marbles and stomping home, 'cause I probably want to come back and have more virtual "coffee or beers", and maybe give and get some reasonable advice overall. As shocking as this may be to you, none of us were sitting around like we're your personal Helpdesk, hoping that you asked us something. But if you want to pull up a virtual chair and mug, talk about "ISY stuff", and can deal with the fact that not every comment will deal with your immediate and specific concern, you might get more out of this. Otherwise, go hire someone to deal with your issue, 'cause a free forum (thanks to the nice folks at UDI), ain't for you.

[Teken]

Speaking for myself only I truly believe the OP just wanted to vent and also ask some pertinent questions. Its easy for lots of folks including myself to come out blasting and become the *Safety Nancy* and quarter back after the fact. There were lots of good suggestions and solutions offered along the way.

 

As others indicated there were lots of OT (Off Topic) discussions which did and didn't relate.

 

I am guilty of this myself, but wanted to state my only intent was to ensure key things were addressed and understood. In my time as a member here over all I have learned a ton of things and tried to share just as many.

 

It would sadden me to read that anyone felt unwelcome in a forum of knowledge.

 

As in life we all have a talk track, and a method of communication. Some of us are a little more PC while others literally speak from the heart and its extremely hard to discern humor, sarcasm, and ill intent just from words.

 

This is why I always try to use the appropriate emoticon to express my (current) meaning and thought(s). After reading a few replies from other long time members and also reviewing my very own *Initial Reply* I can see why the tone would come across as negative and unhelpful.

 

I personally apologize if the information I presented was less than helpful to you in your mind. But know straight up safety is paramount to me and many others and they only want the best for their fellow HA brothers.

 

I know you have acted upon many if not all concerns in this thread and (ARE) fully aware of what next steps need to be. Again, I hope very much you stay and ask future questions and along the way also relay the same to the next guy.

 

X-MAS is fast approaching so wanted to extend my best wishes to you and your family. And be thankful this situation was caught in time before more serious outcome was seen.

 

Lastly, on another tangent: This is the perfect example of why alarm security monitoring by a 3rd party CS is so important. Those who truly believe self monitoring is OK have no freaking clue how life operates.

 

To the OP good on you in having a 24.7.365 CS guarding over your family and home. I am sure this experience reinforces the value and importance of having such services in place.

 

Now, lets all game on . . . 

[oberkc]

Another factor: to my knowledge, most here are enthusiasts without direct knowledge of the inner workings of smarthome or universal devices. Few know what smarthome thinks or what they document or tell UDI. Questions of this nature will generally go unanswered.

[MWareman]

My view is this. The early products were advertised as having the feature to turn on after a power failure.

 

The near fire was caused by a combustible being placed over a halogen light, then the control device behaving and performing as designed.

 

How is this ISY/Insteon/Smarthome's fault?

 

It's a buyer beware world. We cannot complain about problems we cause ourselves when the product itself did exactly what the vendor said it will do. Poor design choice - sure. I agree. However, its not like Smarthome said it wouldn't do this. It's obligant on us as buyers to assess the suitability for its purpose when selecting products. This is why its not a good idea to use an iolinc to control a garage door opener - its not a device refer for an application where security is a need. That, and allon....

 

I'm glad things worked out though.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Adaptel,

 

 

In my mind, there is a problem with the ISY that needs to be addressed in firmware updates.  It should either stop being able to issue ALL OFF or ALL ON commands, or know which devices will ignore these commands so that it reports the status correctly.

Although I agree with you alas there's really no way for us to figure this out utilizing the APIs given to us. Personally - and although subjective - I agree with you that devices should resume to whatever level they were before the power outage. The main question is: now that they don't, what can be done to mitigate the risks.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Brian H]

All the original Insteon Devices remembered their state at power loss. So if it is On it would go back On. If it was Off it stayed Off.

Well except the SocketLinc Dimmer that always powered up at 100%. Even if it was Off.

Some of the 2456S3 and 2856S models. Do always stay Off even if On at power loss. Earlier and later revisions still remember their state at power loss.

[larryllix]

Maybe the poor soul is a victim of the All On bug and thought it was due to power failure return.

[Adaptel]

To you Teken: Thank for your kind and thoughtful words and putting everything into perspective.  I do not participate in forums very much, and do understand how just typing what comes through your stream or thoughts do not always translate well in a text medium, so no hard feelings here.  On a more positive note, I have spent about 8 hours with my ISY over the weekend, honing and improving its configuration, adding some cool functionality, removed all reliance on global ALL OFF commands, and wrote a whole ton of programs to deal with any possible unsafe situation that could possibly (but will unlikely) happen...,.especially when my ISY knows my ELK is armed, which means noone is home.  And yes.....I believe that paying for alarm monitoring might seem like a waste of money, but when it comes to fire, minutes count and who is by their cell phone 24/7 to do effective self monitoring.  This event was very personal and emotional because when I was in 7th grade, my childhood home caught fire in the middle of the night and burned to the ground right in front of my eyes.  My family all made it out but believe me, losing your house to a fire is a profoundly horrible thing that cannot be understood unless you have experienced it yourself.

All the original Insteon Devices remembered their state at power loss. So if it is On it would go back On. If it was Off it stayed Off.

Well except the SocketLinc Dimmer that always powered up at 100%. Even if it was Off.

Some of the 2456S3 and 2856S models. Do always stay Off even if On at power loss. Earlier and later revisions still remember their state at power loss.

 

I disagree on this one.  I bought these SWITCHLINC RELAY devices 2 months after they went on sale in addition to many SWITCHLINC Dimmer units.  The original switchlinc dimmers always defaulted OFF after a power failure (and still do) and the Switchlinc Relay units always defaulted ON after a power failure.  I just want to clarify to another poster that these devices I have been talking about ARE NOT appliancelincs ......which I could possibly understand why they might be programmed to default to the ON state after power loss.  

 

My old devices, and the one that caused this fire, is a SWITCHLINC.  To be exact, it it is a decora switch which looks identical to the switchlinc dimmer and the label on the back reads "Smartlabs Switchlinc V2 Relay #2476S".  On the front upper metal tab, there is a sticker that says "2476S / 0707" which I am assuming that this is the model number followed my manufacturer date (July 2007).  There are two labels on the front bottom mounting tab, one is the Insteon address and the other label says "v2.3 / 3920".  I can assure you that these devices default to the POWER ON state INSTANTLY when they lose power for even a 1/2 second, and this behavior is due the internal behavior of the switch and is not in response to any command issued on the Insteon network.  I do have the original manuals that came with these switches, and there is no mention that they are designed to behave this way.  If anyone else has one of these switches, and you have them connected to switched outlets in your home.....BE CAREFUL, because you never know what might be plugged into that outlet and what might happen if that device is powered on automatically after a power outage.

 

I have my gripes about Smartlabs, and it just doesn't make sense that they would sell a $79.00 light switch (that's how much they cost in 2007) with a brand new powerline control technology, and not have any way to update firmware in these micro controller based devices.  When did a tech company ever create a device that they got 100% flawless in the firmware the first time? They have a JTAG port, but even refuse to allow customers to send devices in for reprogramming.  Yes, I know this is a gripe suited for Smarthome's board.....but every interaction with them has never led to a positive outcome.  I do love the technology of instone, but the company and some of their decisions are another story.  If the ISY hadn't come out, I know I would have ditched my Insteon network a long time ago because all attempts that Smarthome made for a central controller product was laughable at best.  I read about the security problem in another thread here, but they have no way to fix it cuz they must of thought they were immune to bugs and all these devices have no firmware upgrade capability.

[Adaptel]

Hi Adaptel,

 

 

 

Although I agree with you alas there's really no way for us to figure this out utilizing the APIs given to us. Personally - and although subjective - I agree with you that devices should resume to whatever level they were before the power outage. The main question is: now that they don't, what can be done to mitigate the risks.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

THANK YOU for agreeing with me one this! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.  It is just common sense to me, especially since the hardware has always been able to do so.  I guess we can't think of insteon as a "Standard", with well thought out and documented technical functionality and details laid out, but a moving target based on the whims of the engineering department at Smartlabs (oxy-moron).  I guess I feel a little better that if they don't let you know this stuff, how are we supposed to know.  Hey, it's Christmas time.......and everyone loves surprises.  I just bought 20 new Switchlinc relay devices.that remember their on/off states during a power failure.  I wonder what other surprises they will reveal, but only time will tell:) Thanks.  

[mwester]

I've been surprised by mid-model unannounced changes in functionality with some of the older devices that I purchased used - I found the following reference pages to be very helpful in determining if a specific device model with a specific firmware has any "gotchas".

 

I just skimmed it for the models you described above, and found no listing of them, but I may have overlooked it.

 

http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm

 

As you can tell from the notes in the list, and indeed from the fact that a third-party list such as this needs to be created and maintained by the community, SmartHome does a dreadful job with release notes, and in my opinion, they do a poor to at best passable job with firmware quality in almost every regard.  It certainly is a shame that they do not support firmware updates; it would certainly boost customer satisfaction!

[Brian H]

Some of my 2476S SwitchLincs and 2876S Icons  had the intermittent Tact Switch issues. Push the local paddle. Hear the tact switch click. No action on the load. Smarthome said we didn't know how to use them correctly or wired them incorrectly. Finally gave us a seven year warranty on the known hardware versions with the problem.

 

Mine are also old enough [Hardware 2.1 firmware v.28] to not have an Air Gap Switch. Pull the set button out and it breaks off. There is a completely different Factory Reset Sequence. Mine do remember their state of On or Off at power loss.

 

I have an original 2456D LampLinc from a early developers group kit. Firmware .20. It does not respond to an All On or All Off command. Yes the same feature they are again removing.

 

The 2456S3 ApplainceLinc and 2856S Icon On/Off had the remember feature. Then two firmware version always Off. Then again remember state.

 

I have found the list helpful but also have not seen much added information lately.

[Adaptel]

Some of my 2476S SwitchLincs and 2876S Icons  had the intermittent Tact Switch issues. Push the local paddle. Hear the tact switch click. No action on the load. Smarthome said we didn't know how to use them correctly or wired them incorrectly. Finally gave us a seven year warranty on the known hardware versions with the problem.

 

I have had this problem with many of my devices.  IT is SO FRUSTRATING when the tact switches wear out.  You walk by a light switch, tap it, hear a click, and expect the light go on.  Found myself having to back up, and mash on the switch paddle until it responded.  Not so great for a supposed high-end lighting solution.  I called Smarthome with this issue several times and got the same blow-off response that you describe but I could not get them to warrantee anything.  It really seems like they are embarrased about their early devices and want nothing to do with them.  To solve it, I ended up finding a compatible replacement microswitch from digikey and had to re-solder in new switches to get them to work reliably again.  Out of my 100 devices, I probably have replaced the internal micro switches on about 20 of them.  

[apostolakisl]

I have had this problem with many of my devices.  IT is SO FRUSTRATING when the tact switches wear out.  You walk by a light switch, tap it, hear a click, and expect the light go on.  Found myself having to back up, and mash on the switch paddle until it responded.  Not so great for a supposed high-end lighting solution.  I called Smarthome with this issue several times and got the same blow-off response that you describe but I could not get them to warrantee anything.  It really seems like they are embarrased about their early devices and want nothing to do with them.  To solve it, I ended up finding a compatible replacement microswitch from digikey and had to re-solder in new switches to get them to work reliably again.  Out of my 100 devices, I probably have replaced the internal micro switches on about 20 of them.  

 

That was a mistake.  You probably didn't talk to them after they acknowledged the problem.  I got every single one of my switches replaced under warranty which also got me the newer firmware and a few added features.  Unfortunately this was prior to dual band.  Since the installing the new switches, maybe 5 years ago, no problems at all (except PLM).  I suppose you could try getting all those switches that you had to fix yourself replaced if you make a big enough stink.  Really and truly, calling smarthome was very hit or miss.  Sometimes I would get someone who was lovely and accommodating, other times I got a brick wall.

[aLf]

I too was an early (too early) user.  I (wasted) a months pay money on Smarthome X-10.  If you wanted to see random turn on issues, it didn't even need the all too regular power outages of my area to turn on - power-line noise was enough.  I too bought Insteon immediately upon their release.  My random ON's became less, but the eventual power outage proved to be a surprise switch or two ON every time I came back to my vacation home.  I can still remember running across the ISY-26.  I also remember my first of many conversations with Michel.  He told me what the little box would do.  I really doubted his salesmanship.  I bought one anyway and it has evolved into my current 994.  Through those years (I'm old now), I have used it as more of an insurance policy than for its robust features.  I ALWAYS looked at Insteon exactly like a previous posted noted. You have to think of ALL the stuff that can go wrong.  The first thing I knew about Insteon was that it had its own mind. I wrote a program that based on home/away would look at status of every switch in my house every hour (you could write it for 5 minutes).  That program would note any switch that was on when I wasn't home.  If one (or many) were on, it would then send an "ALL OFF" to every switch.  In addition, it would email me with the rogue switch and also a backup email when it returned to its proper state "OFF".  I can't remember what I paid for my first 26, but it paid for itself in the first month.  I can't tell you how many times my neighbor would tell me lights were on for days before.  The scarf is another issue...

 

I'm building a new house and have chosen Insteon to be present in some, but not all locations.  I find the benefits FAR outweigh the problems.  What I've seen of the recent versions is a product that is much more reliable.  As with everything the Pioneers get shot, those coming along later reap the benefits.  It is a shame that SH does not have a flash update for these, but then the only company that I've ever run across that continually updates their firmware - thus making it "state of the art" is Universal Devices.  That said, I've never seen the (genuine) support by management as UD either.  This forum is a wealth of knowledge.  Don't dis the folks helping you.  I feel like I may use 1% of capabilities of my ISY and Insteon.  But then I probably only use 1% of my brain too.

[sloop]

so if this is all about helping the op, how do statements like this help?

 

"There is absolutely no reason why anyone would need 8000 watts of outside lights to be powered, none. These lights should have been segmented and placed in groups where key lighting would be available should it be required. You certainly did not need all 8000 watts to be lit up."

 

you might not 'need' it.  you cannot say the op does not.  the statements are arrogant.

 

anyway - my legendary 'dusk' scene comes to mind when trying to fake an all on or all off workaround.  there is a limit to the number of links...

[larryllix]

so if this is all about helping the op, how do statements like this help?

 

"There is absolutely no reason why anyone would need 8000 watts of outside lights to be powered, none. These lights should have been segmented and placed in groups where key lighting would be available should it be required. You certainly did not need all 8000 watts to be lit up."

 

you might not 'need' it.  you cannot say the op does not.  the statements are arrogant.

 

anyway - my legendary 'dusk' scene comes to mind when trying to fake an all on or all off workaround.  there is a limit to the number of links...

I was thinking  the same thing. is this just a troll?

[Teken]

so if this is all about helping the op, how do statements like this help?

 

"There is absolutely no reason why anyone would need 8000 watts of outside lights to be powered, none. These lights should have been segmented and placed in groups where key lighting would be available should it be required. You certainly did not need all 8000 watts to be lit up."

 

you might not 'need' it.  you cannot say the op does not.  the statements are arrogant.

 

anyway - my legendary 'dusk' scene comes to mind when trying to fake an all on or all off workaround.  there is a limit to the number of links...

 

 

I was thinking  the same thing. is this just a troll?

 

No, its not a troll its the plain facts as they are . . .

 

It may be nice to have the tennis court all lit up during a grid down event. But certainly its not a requirement in any stretch of the imagination. People can spew off what ever horse sh^t they want and say the OP indicates its a need.

 

Sure, that's right up there with breathing, eh?

 

I think not it was a choice so fine but as I stated up top having 8000 watts lit up like a rock concert doesn't help a back up generator nor does it help the pocket book in terms of consumed fuel.

 

People often like to deflect such views by saying you don't know if he *Needs* this.

 

Sure, I don't know if he needs this . . .

 

But its safe to say needing 8000 watts lighting up the neighborhood is like needing open heart surgery with a spoon. I am sure the spoon will open a person up but you know what there is a correct tool and procedure for that.

 

In a grid down event if someone is sitting in their sauna, pool, and rocking the tennis court good on them. But again, it misses the whole point of having a back up generator in place which millions of people do.

 

I always reflect back about how approx 26 million stupid fools spent hard earned money on.

 

Wait for it . . .

 

The Pet Rock . . .

 

Well, 26 million people simply couldn't be wrong right?

 

NOTE: My reply has no reflection on the OP simply replying to the quotes above. 

[larryllix]

No, its not a troll its the plain facts as they are . . .

 

It may be nice to have the tennis court all lit up during a grid down event. But certainly its not a requirement in any stretch of the imagination. People can spew off what ever horse sh^t they want and say the OP indicates its a need.

 

Sure, that's right up there with breathing, eh?

 

I think not it was a choice so fine but as I stated up top having 8000 watts lit up like a rock concert doesn't help a back up generator nor does it help the pocket book in terms of consumed fuel.

 

People often like to deflect such views by saying you don't know if he *Needs* this.

 

Sure, I don't know if he needs this . . .

 

But its safe to say needing 8000 watts lighting up the neighborhood is like needing open heart surgery with a spoon. I am sure the spoon will open a person up but you know what there is a correct tool and procedure for that.

 

In a grid down event if someone is sitting in their sauna, pool, and rocking the tennis court good on them. But again, it misses the whole point of having a back up generator in place which millions of people do.

 

I always reflect back about how approx 26 million stupid fools spent hard earned money on.

 

Wait for it . . .

 

The Pet Rock . . .

 

Well, 26 million people simply couldn't be wrong right?

 

NOTE: My reply has no reflection on the OP simply replying to the quotes above.

I was referring to the bringing up of an old post and referring to the poster instead of subject matter. The complaint itself exemplified exactly what he was complaining about himself and not helping anybody.

 

Sorry my post wasn't clear to what post I was referring to.

[ISYhbsh01]

 

 

If I leave the garage door open, I send myself a notification. Then I confirm the door is clear with a live camera feed BEFORE manually closing the door. The rolling current date/time superimposed on the camera feed, by the camera itself and not a NVR, confirms the image is not stale.

FYI: IP cameras can have a lag of a couple of seconds even when logged in directly to the camera, on a low resolution sub-stream, and with the seconds of the current time rolling. This is especially true when on a mobile connection. A lot of things can happen in a few seconds.

[Brian H]

Sloop and I go way back to the early days on Insteon. He is not a troll.

To when instead of admitting there where Insteon issues. Smartlabs Engineers tried to say we didn't know what we where talking about. To shift their hardware failures blame on to the end users.

[Teken]

I don't want to belabor the point but my initial reply way back in page one was to simply call out the facts. My deliver could have been better I suppose but then again sometimes you just need to hear the truth.

 

I don't pretend to be the most PC guy out there but that is the way it is.

 

Ultimately the only thing to know is the OP and his family are safe. He has taken all the steps that are required to avoid future events to happen again.

 

His home is still standing and by Gods grace he can move forward with life and enjoy the small things.

 

Even if its rockin the tennis court at 3:00 AM . . .

 

Ha!

[stusviews]

8Kw of exterior lighting may be considered somewhat excessive. Reminds me of the 11.8 million-gallon/yr water user in Bel Ar, CA. That's more than 32 thousand gallons every day. One home, not a hotel or apartment building.

[larryllix]

I can't imagine playing tennis at nights with the miner lamp hats on though. It makes playing very tough.

[stusviews]

Playing tennis is tough. Playing ball at night using a glow-in-the-dark ball can be illuminating.