justin.cool Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Does an Access Point have to be "linked up", as described in the quick start guide, in order to be effective / operational? I have 4 Access Points set up, and they are essential to improving my communication issues. If I add a 5th, do I have to link it up? Or is that "linking" process as described in the guide just to ensure they are on different phases? Or do they have to be in pairs in order to function? Justin in Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Access Points become operational as soon as you plug them in. What is important is that you confirm that at least one pair is communicating from opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. That's done by initiating the 4-tap/beacon test. Once that's accomplished, any additional Access Points serve to increase the range and reliability of the Insteon network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 No, the beacon (4 tap) test is to locate which leg the access point is on in relation to a second access point. It's really plug and play unless you need bridging. Curious though.. how many devices do you have in your network? Communication issues can be also related to noise or signal suckers (lack of filters on UPS, surge suppressors etc.) Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchap Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Related question: Do access points / range extenders (#2992-222) change the message hop count? Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 In a way, Range Esxtenders/Access Points can change the message hop count. They can reduce the number of hops required. Hops are related to how many retries are needed before the signal is ACKed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Related question: Do access points / range extenders (#2992-222) change the message hop count? Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk My understanding... Hops count isn't affected by devices that repeat the message but reflects how many times the originating device has to retransmit before it receives ACK from recipient. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchap Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I'm asking something like this: Can range extenders make the RF mesh area sufficiently large? My information is coming from "Insteon -- Whitepaper: The Details", copyright 2013 on the Insteon.com web site. Pages 23-28 of that doc discuss INSTEON Message Repetition. Example 3 on page 24 says: Up to three re-transmissions are possible with a message. Example 3 shows the progression of the message involving an originating Sender and three repeating devices, with a Max Hops of three. Example 3 assumes that the range between Repeaters is such that only adjacent Repeaters can hear each other, and that only Repeater 1 can hear the Sender. Note that the Sender will not retransmit its own message. This is the question I am asking about. The example anticipates a message moving through the mesh, being "retransmitted" by devices other than the originator. Somewhere else I read that a max of 5 devices can be involved in a successfully received message: OriginatorD1 - Dev2 - [Retransmission Hop 1] - Dev3 - [RH2] - Dev4 - [RH3] - DestinationD5. This makes sense and preserves the usual meaning of "hop" in networking. I'm looking for a way to extend the actual distance between the OriginatorD1 and the DestinationD5. Hop counts in message are used to control the message retransmission. If range extenders don't alter these message, then the physical distance can be increased by using them between D1-D5. Insteon device RF specs appear to show ranges of 50-150 ft. You can use up 50' chunks pretty quickly going between buildings. Thanks all, Bobchap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 All dual-band device can increase the range and reliability (and repeat the signal) of the Insteon network.Access Points and LampLincs have been reported to have a greater RF range that other devices, but that's anecdotal reports. No hard evidence has been produced. In any case, Access Points will increase the RF range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 The hop count is NOT related to the retries at all. Hops are the number of times the signals is repeated by devices to extend the range of transmission distance. ACKs are transmitted by the receiving end to acknowledge the command has been received successfully. If the originating device does not receive and ACK signal the originating device may try again and make another attempt. This is a retry and not related to Hops or Hop Count to get to the intended destination. Origin -->hop-->device-->hop-->device-->hop-->Target (3 hops) no ACK? then Retry Origin -->hop-->device-->hop-->Target (2 hops) (retries=1) Origin -->hop-->device-->hop-->device-->hop-->Target (3 hops) (retries=2) Origin -->hop-->Target (1 hop) (retries=3) Target-->hop-->device-->hop-->Origin (2 hops) (ACK returned) Took 3 retries, hop count varied each time Bobchap: This appears to be exactly the way your network training has taught you for Insteon also. --------------------------------------------------- Edit: This was reported with more hops as the original pair doesn't appear to be counted. Origin ----->device(hop)--->device(hop)----->Target = (2 hops) no ACK yet ? then Retry Origin ----->device(hop)---->Target = (1 hops) (retries=1) no ACK yet ? then Retry Origin ----->device(hop)---->device(hop)---->Target = (2 hops) (retries=2) no ACK yet ? then Retry Origin ----->Target = (0 hops) (retries=3) Target----->device(hop)---->Origin = (1 hop) (ACK returned) Took 3 retries, hop count varied each time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 The hop count is NOT related to the retries at all. Thanks for that explanation. I'm still confused by how a distant dual band switchlinc (2477D) on opposite leg as PLM can show Hops Left=(3)? I don't believe the RF signal is strong enough to reach the PLM but I guess that must be the case. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Thanks for that explanation. I'm still confused by how a distant dual band switchlinc (2477D) on opposite leg as PLM can show Hops Left=(3)? I don't believe the RF signal is strong enough to reach the PLM but I guess that must be the case. Jon... Yeah, that doesn't seem to follow the Insteon networking rules. If the device doesn't subtract one from the count when it echoes the command, it could echo forever. This would be proven by more than two units locking up a network by perpetual echoing. EDIT:typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 jerlands Do you have a trace that can be posted which shows traffic from a distant device with Hops Left=3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 jerlands Do you have a trace that can be posted which shows traffic from a distant device with Hops Left=3? Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B E5 5E 0F 11 FF Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.E5.5E 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.E5.5E 30.6C.FB 2F 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.E5.5E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B E5 5E 1] [sT] [255] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [ 2B E5 5E 1] ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B E5 5E 0F 13 00 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.E5.5E 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.E5.5E 30.6C.FB 2F 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.E5.5E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B E5 5E 1] [sT] [0] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [ 2B E5 5E 1] ST 0 (uom=100 prec=0) Edit: this device is dual band 2477D Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 jerlands Do you have a trace that can be posted which shows traffic from a distant device with Hops Left=3? Here's a Hops Left=2 I may be confused as to which leg the other post was on. Light Downstairs Hallway Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 68 32 0F 11 FF Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 16.68.32 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.68.32 30.6C.FB 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 16.68.32-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [16 68 32 1] [sT] [255] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:53 PM : [ 16 68 32 1] ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0) Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 68 32 0F 13 00 Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 16.68.32 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.68.32 30.6C.FB 2B 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 16.68.32-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [16 68 32 1] [sT] [0] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:51:56 PM : [ 16 68 32 1] ST 0 (uom=100 prec=0) Edit: this device is single band switchlinc 2476s Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B E5 5E 0F 11 FF Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.E5.5E 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.E5.5E 30.6C.FB 2F 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.E5.5E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B E5 5E 1] [sT] [255] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:01 PM : [ 2B E5 5E 1] ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B E5 5E 0F 13 00 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.E5.5E 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.E5.5E 30.6C.FB 2F 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.E5.5E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B E5 5E 1] [sT] [0] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 03:42:05 PM : [ 2B E5 5E 1] ST 0 (uom=100 prec=0) Edit: this device is dual band 2477D Jon... In view of your report of "Hops Left=3", this means that my diagram was incorrect in count. A hop is actually a repeats by the non-end device so that a non-hop completion of transmission would be from originator to target. (Max hops=3, Hops left=3) This was some confusion in a previous discussion thread and was never clear from my limited research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 jerlands Do you have a trace that can be posted which shows traffic from a distant device with Hops Left=3? I think this is what you're looking for? I'm a little confused by the trace. Light Master Bath Vanity (2477D dual band) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 19 49 75 0F 11 FF Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.49.75 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.49.75 30.6C.FB 2F 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 19.49.75-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [19 49 75 1] [sT] [255] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [ 19 49 75 1] ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AE] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=255 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AE] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=6 Event(val=255 uom=100 prec=0) != Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> true Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 0070] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=255 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 0070] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=6 Event(val=255 uom=100 prec=0) != Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> true Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AC] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=255 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AC] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=255 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> false Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AB] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=255 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AB] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=255 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> false Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AA] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=255 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:11 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AA] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=255 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> false Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 19 49 75 0F 13 00 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.49.75 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.49.75 30.6C.FB 2F 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 19.49.75-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [19 49 75 1] [sT] [0] uom=100 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [ 19 49 75 1] ST 0 (uom=100 prec=0) Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AE] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=0 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AE] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=6 Event(val=0 uom=100 prec=0) != Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> false Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 0070] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=0 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 0070] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=6 Event(val=0 uom=100 prec=0) != Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> false Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AC] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=0 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AC] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> true Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AB] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=0 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AB] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> true Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AA] STS [19 49 75 1] ST Converted values Event=0 Condition=0 prec=0 Wed 03/30/2016 04:15:17 PM : [D2D-CMP 00AA] STS [19 49 75 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=100 prec=0) is Condition(val=0 uom=51 prec=0) --> true Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 jerlands Let me digest those traces. Thanks. As an FYI for those looking at this topic, Hops Left=3 is a result of the new PLM firmware. For years the Hops Left was -1 from starting point. Many of the documents at insteon.com show results from PLMs at and below firmware v.9B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yeah, that doesn't seem to follow the Insteon networking rules. If the device doesn't subtract one from the count when it echoes the command, it could echo forever. This would be proven by more than two units locking up a network by perpetual echoing. I'm gonna have to make good notes on my circuits as some point. I did beacon test and device 2B.E5.5E (first trace post#13 ) I had though was on different leg flashed green and half my swithlincs are single band so I'm not certain which are on opposite legs but other than the one (post #14 single band) all devices test with hops left=3 I was actually thinking the range extender didn't affect the hops count in bridging legs as if all devices were single band and legs were RF bridged and Hops Left were to =3 but I can't prove that because I'm not certain right now which devices are which leg. In view of your report of "Hops Left=3", this means that my diagram was incorrect in count. A hop is actually a repeats by the non-end device so that a non-hop completion of transmission would be from originator to target. (Max hops=3, Hops left=3) This was some confusion in a previous discussion thread and was never clear from my limited research. I see now how the hops count would have to carried and changed by non-end device but I'm still confused by all the timing issues involved Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 See Insteon Whitepaper: The details for an explanation of hops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I'm gonna have to make good notes on my circuits as some point. I did beacon test and device 2B.E5.5E (first trace post#13 ) I had though was on different leg flashed green and half my swithlincs are single band so I'm not certain which are on opposite legs but other than the one (post #14 single band) all devices test with hops left=3 I was actually thinking the range extender didn't affect the hops count in bridging legs as if all devices were single band and legs were RF bridged and Hops Left were to =3 but I can't prove that because I'm not certain right now which devices are which leg. I see now how the hops count would have to carried and changed by non-end device but I'm still confused by all the timing issues involved Jon... I'm no expert on Insteon but IIRC.... The originator sends a command sequence and all units receiving it resend it at the same time. To do this a powerline synchro timing is required. The repeating devices wait until X many powerline cycles cross zero volts and then simultaneously transmit the same command again. Of course they all subtract 1 from the hops remaining. The Max hops are limited because of the perms and combs can get out of hand. The mesh network could echo this forever without a limit. This all works very well to "strengthen" the signal and extend communications, most of the time. Wiring can have slight delays from the end of one breaker circuit to the other but at 60Hz this is insignificant. However, at the Insteon frequency, with a small time delay, the signals can end up out of phase a bit and can be trouble, just not usually. At the 131 kHz carrier frequency it would take about 3.8 microseconds of delay to be completely out of phase (180 degrees) and cancel out any close transmitter's signals. If two signals are 120 degrees out of phase the sum of two sinewaves would be 100% of just one so chances of cancellation is slim and mostly reinforces each other. http://cache.insteon.com/documentation/insteon_details.pdf I have never owned any extenders, access points, active phase couplers, and have never needed any. I do have a superfluous On/Off module plugged into my back up PV inverter on the one phase and very close to the PLM to help inject a signal on those runs on that . Most people can find a usage for a placed-by-wiring unit anyway. This one is my utility room anti-freeze backup for when my heating would fail and temps get down to +5C. I do have an old X10, passive coupler, right at my PLM and 2 feet away from my central electrical panel. Having said that I do have some occasional comm problem just above the PV inverters when they are very lightly loaded and it interferes with my KPL putting in security codes successfully. This doesn't seem to happen when the PV inverters are loaded or shut down. I am slowly closing in on a resolution for this problem over the next 20 years. Anyway, back to the simultaneous hops. When a device uses three hops the target end has to wait until all this noise is done despite having the signal right from the horse's mouth. What would happen if the target unit replied with an ACK and everybody else was still simultaneously yelling "TURN THE LIGHT ON"? so... he has to wait and this slows Insteon down waiting for all the worst contingencies that could be predicted, in advance. Good system but some brake had to be installed to stop runaway dual mesh networks. Here is another item that bugs me. SH puts out all these White Papers and people that understand what a White Paper is know that it can mean nothing. A White Paper is a published idea and/or intent and may not have any accuracy to what is implemented in the end. With that in mind I have read that dual-band devices only repeat what they hear on RF, on the powerline, and what they hear on the powerline, is only repeated on RF. In other places I have read they repeat everything, everywhere, every way. Me thinks SH has not published what is really happening, for fear of product technology release and copying. (best thing that could happen to us) IIRC a hacker type guy posted in this forum, he had analysed the signal, and found most of the published papers lies. Just a few months back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Me thinks SH has not published what is really happening, for fear of product technology release and copying. (best thing that could happen to us) IIRC a hacker type guy posted in this forum, he had analysed the signal, and found most of the published papers lies. Just a few months back. I remember EvilPete's comments from Teken's posts and wish he'd follow up on the security issue. It's still an amazing system to me, timing on zero crossings a <5v 131khz signal and making sense of it (not to mention integrating that with RF.) Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I remember EvilPete's comments from Teken's posts and wish he'd follow up on the security issue. It's still an amazing system to me, timing on zero crossings a <5v 131khz signal and making sense of it (not to mention integrating that with RF.) Jon... I agree. From everything I have heard, read about the technology and personal experiences, Insteon is the best. The only negative that some dwell on, (usually selling another system) is it is mostly proprietary and SH is a lone wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I agree. From everything I have heard, read about the technology and personal experiences, Insteon is the best. The only negative that some dwell on, (usually selling another system) is it is mostly proprietary and SH is a lone wolf. Yep.. seems so much more could be done with it if they opened it up. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Wiring can have slight delays from the end of one breaker circuit to the other but at 60Hz this is insignificant. . . . With that in mind I have read that dual-band devices only repeat what they hear on RF, on the powerline, and what they hear on the powerline, is only repeated on RF. In other places I have read they repeat everything, everywhere, every way. The "speed" of electricity is independent of the frequency of the alternations. The speed is the same whether is AC or DC. It's actually the effect of the electric that's 300,000 meters/sec. An individual electron isn't traveling that fast. They're all scatted when there's no potential and line up when there is. The movement of the first electron causes all the electrons to move. The effect occur at nearly the speed of light. A wire is not a vacuum and has some resistance, byt the slowdown is minimal, not something anyone would notice. RF and power line signals are identical in timing (or Insteon wouldn't work). Each device that can hear the signal repeats it. I doubt the the device can distinguish which medium sent the signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 The "speed" of electricity is independent of the frequency of the alternations. The speed is the same whether is AC or DC. It's actually the effect of the electric that's 300,000 meters/sec. An individual electron isn't traveling that fast. They're all scatted when there's no potential and line up when there is. The movement of the first electron causes all the electrons to move. The effect occur at nearly the speed of light. A wire is not a vacuum and has some resistance, byt the slowdown is minimal, not something anyone would notice. RF and power line signals are identical in timing (or Insteon wouldn't work). Each device that can hear the signal repeats it. I doubt the the device can distinguish which medium sent the signal. Plancks constant is not related to phase shift in this case, I don't believe. Any transmission line has inductive impedance and capacitive reactance properties as well as loads do with their capacitive and inductive properties. If you put a capacitive input power supply at the far/load end of an inductive transmission line (cable) you can phase shift the waveform greatly. You can also develop resonance properties where your end voltage is higher than the supply end. All kinds of phenomenon develop with transmission lines. I admit I haven't done the calculations on a 14/2 cable 100 feet long to know whether it could be a factor at the 60Hz powerline frequency and I am not sure how I would measure it. Anybody know the impedance factors for a 14/2 romex plastic cable or even worse a BX armoured cable? It would be interesting to calculate the phase shift with a pure capacitive load as well as a pure inductive load (unloaded Walwart?) to know the limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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