Access Point placement with multiple Circuit Breaker boxes

[someguy]

I have three circuit breaker panels that are set up like this:

 

-Box #1 has a number of circuits and it also has switches that turn off the other two panels.

-Boxes #2 and #3 have circuits to other parts of the house.

 

I currently have my access points connected to two circuits that run through box #1. I believe that they are configured correctly as I followe the instructions to make sure they were on opposite legs of the panel (or whatever that is called).

 

I am having communication problems with three units that I have running off of box #3 (which is the farthest from #1).

 

I was thinking of moving one of my access points to a circuit from box #3, but I'm not sure it will be close enough to link well. Another option would be to add another access point to box #3.

 

Anybody have any experience with this or advice?

[MikeB]

I agree with your 2nd suggestion - I would add an AP to an outlet near your problem devices.

[Sub-Routine]

Since I don't have any direct experience with multiple panels I suggest posting on the Smarthome Insteon forum. StusViews and others there are very knowledgeable about such things.

 

I imagine it will take another pair of AccessPoints for each box to bridge the signals completely but if you just need a specific leg to work one more AccessPoint could be a solution.

 

Rand

[ulrick65]

I have three circuit breaker panels that are set up like this:

 

-Box #1 has a number of circuits and it also has switches that turn off the other two panels.

-Boxes #2 and #3 have circuits to other parts of the house.

 

I currently have my access points connected to two circuits that run through box #1. I believe that they are configured correctly as I followe the instructions to make sure they were on opposite legs of the panel (or whatever that is called).

 

I am having communication problems with three units that I have running off of box #3 (which is the farthest from #1).

 

I was thinking of moving one of my access points to a circuit from box #3, but I'm not sure it will be close enough to link well. Another option would be to add another access point to box #3.

 

Anybody have any experience with this or advice?

 

I have the same situation with a twist...I have an apartment above my detached garage that is on it's own meter. I installed two Access Points (on opposite phases as directed) in the house and two Access Points in the Garage (one upstairs, one down). This worked great to get the apartment connected and talking.

 

However, I also have a sub-panel in the main house (just like you do). In theory, it should not present a problem...but like yours, it did. I happened to have a signal bridge that I bought in my first load of stuff (before I realized Access Points bridged the phases) and I installed it and the problem was gone. I can't technically explain why this works...because really it shouldn't be needed...but it did. Maybe because it is wired right at the panel and repeats things better or something.

 

Here's the link to the device I have:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2406H/SignaLinc-INSTEON-Phase-Coupler-Hardwired/p.aspx

[wwat]

I am having communication problems with three units that I have running off of box #3 (which is the farthest from #1).

 

What sort of units are you refering too?

 

I have a very similar setup, 2 panels in the furnace room and another panel hanging off of one of these panels which is located in my garage workshop.

 

Insteon seems to work everywhere as long as the two phases of the two main panels are bridged. I have one AP on one of the phases of the first panel and the other AP is connected to the other phase of the second panel.

 

I just took a lamplink over to the garage and it works, so its definately worth a try before you spend the money on another two access points. First try the outlets hanging off box 2 then if that doesn't work try the outlets off box 3.

 

Wayne

[Brian H]

The passive phase coupler for Insteon. Seems to be out of stock until 03/02/09

[someguy]

My house (as I suspect most houses) only has two phases, so it shouldn't matter where I bridge them with access points, right?

 

If I bridge them with access points in the main panel or in the sub-panels, they still bridge them, just farther away, right?

 

Here is what my primary (panel #1) looks like, although I suspect the photo doesn't help much.

 

[someguy]

I am having communication problems with three units that I have running off of box #3 (which is the farthest from #1).

 

What sort of units are you refering too?

 

I have a very similar setup, 2 panels in the furnace room and another panel hanging off of one of these panels which is located in my garage workshop.

 

Insteon seems to work everywhere as long as the two phases of the two main panels are bridged. I have one AP on one of the phases of the first panel and the other AP is connected to the other phase of the second panel.

 

I just took a lamplink over to the garage and it works, so its definately worth a try before you spend the money on another two access points. First try the outlets hanging off box 2 then if that doesn't work try the outlets off box 3.

 

I currently have the two phases bridged in the main panel. The five unreliable units are connect to the garage panel (#3). They are two in-line lincs, one switchlinc, one outletlinc and one EZSwitch 30.

 

wwat, let me see if I understand your suggestion: You are suggesting I leave one of the access points attached to a circuit from the main panel and move the other one out to the garage, connected to a circuit from panel #3? (of course, I'll need to link them up correctly to make sure they are on opposite phases.)

[ulrick65]

My house (as I suspect most houses) only has two phases, so it shouldn't matter where I bridge them with access points, right?

 

If I bridge them with access points in the main panel or in the sub-panels, they still bridge them, just farther away, right?

 

Here is what my primary (panel #1) looks like, although I suspect the photo doesn't help much.

 

 

Yes, that is true. As long as they are bridged it should be fine. I can't explain why I had an issue with the sub-panel, I just did. I am an electrician by trade originally and then moved into electrical engineering...so I understand that it makes no sense really. Perhaps the distance is a problem, or the fact that there are three breakers between main panel devices and sub-panel devices that interferes...or maybe it is just my house and having the bridge at the panel increases redundancy and adding another Access Point would have done the same thing.

 

I would take Mike's advice and move your Access Points around and see if that helps.

[wwat]

 

wwat, let me see if I understand your suggestion: You are suggesting I leave one of the access points attached to a circuit from the main panel and move the other one out to the garage, connected to a circuit from panel #3? (of course, I'll need to link them up correctly to make sure they are on opposite phases.)

 

Yes, leave one AP where it is and take the other one and try plugging in to outlets hanging off box 2 (if thats closer to box 1 than box 3 is). If that doesn't work then try the outlets off box 3. Its easy enough to try and very easy to detect when you have hit the opposite phase because the little blue LED turns bright and steady blue at which point you have to walk back and tap the 1st AP.

 

Its just something I would try before spending more money, if it works reliably then your ahead if not then grab yourself some more AP's.

 

I'm interested to hear how it all turns out for you.

 

Regards,

Wayne

[someguy]

okay, get ready for this. I moved one AP to the same circuit as an outletlinc in my garage and I still get problems. When I installed the AP, I confirmed that it worked correctly.

 

I am now, with the AP on the same circuit, I am getting the error "cannot communicate with garage outletlinc". I then query it and it sometimes can communicate and other times it can't.

 

Is there any way to test an AP to make sure it is working?

 

Any other ideas?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi someguy,

 

I am not sure you can test APs. Although a pain, would it be possible to move your OL closer to the PLM? It might be your OL which has the problem.

 

Also, if your AP is too far away from the other AP, then you are going to experience precisely what you are experiencing now: intermittent communications issues.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

okay, get ready for this. I moved one AP to the same circuit as an outletlinc in my garage and I still get problems. When I installed the AP, I confirmed that it worked correctly.

 

I am now, with the AP on the same circuit, I am getting the error "cannot communicate with garage outletlinc". I then query it and it sometimes can communicate and other times it can't.

 

Is there any way to test an AP to make sure it is working?

 

Any other ideas?

[MikeB]

Is there any way to test an AP to make sure it is working?

 

The best way I can think of to test an AP is to place a pair on opposite legs within range of one another and use the procedure in the quick start guide to ensure they communicate with one another:

- plug 1st unit in

- tap set button 4 times

- LED should brighten

- plug 2nd unit in

- if communicating with 1st unit, LED should brighten

 

While not a complete test, this at least ensures that the APs are not completely dead with their LEDs stuck on.

[ulrick65]

The passive phase coupler for Insteon. Seems to be out of stock until 03/02/09

 

You can get one from Smarthome on Ebay here if you want one!

[Brian H]

Thanks for that information.

If I need one; I may just retune one of my Smarthome Dryer Outlet ones.

 

OK either I was having a bad day or Smarthome got more in. The hardwired coupler was in stock this morning.

[ulrick65]

Nope...you were correct, they were out of stock!

 

Thanks for that information.

If I need one; I may just retune one of my Smarthome Dryer Outlet ones.

 

OK either I was having a bad day or Smarthome got more in. The hardwired coupler was in stock this morning.

[someguy]

I went out to check the AP that was flashing before and it is no longer flashing. I'll have to keep checking it and try to figure out what is causing it.

[johnradams]

I have a fairly large and complex wiring setup: two completely separate electrical feeds from the street (my poolhouse is on a separate meter). The poolhouse has a main panel and a sub-panel. My house has 4 sub-panels.

 

I plan to use the following setup to create a reliable configuration:

 

1. Bridge the 2 legs of each sub-panel with the hard-wired SignaLinc - INSTEON Phase Coupler (2406H). These will be installed adjacent to each panel, which should make the bridge between the 2 legs very reliable.

2. Link the panels using Insteon Access Points, one per panel. These will, of course, be scattered throught the house.

 

The Access Points will be used to link the various parts of the wiring, while the hard-wired coupler will handle bridging the two phases. As the poolhouse is only 50 feet from the house, the RF link should be able to bridge the house to the poolhouse.

 

My rationale for this scheme includes:

 

(a) Instead of requiring 2 Access Points per panel, I only need one per panel. Slightly cheaper, much cleaner, and less setup.

 

( No need to worry about picking outlets that are on separate phases. I can choose outlets that are "out of the way".

 

© Fewer Access Points means fewer clunky boxes scattered around the house.

 

Feedback? Better ideas?

 

thanks

[someguy]

johnradams:

 

Man, you must have a hell of a house there. It sounds like your plan for insteon may be overkill, in my opinion. X10 needed that kind of stuff, but Insteon may not. Hard-wiring all of those units will be a PITA.

 

You could start with a link between both phases in the main house and a link between both phases in the pool house. If you use access points, then they should all be hooked to one another. If you have enough Insteon devices this may be enough. If you are using an ISY then it will tell you if it is having trouble communicating with one or more of your units and you could add access points elsewhere.

[ulrick65]

I have a fairly large and complex wiring setup: two completely separate electrical feeds from the street (my poolhouse is on a separate meter). The poolhouse has a main panel and a sub-panel. My house has 4 sub-panels.

 

I plan to use the following setup to create a reliable configuration:

 

1. Bridge the 2 legs of each sub-panel with the hard-wired SignaLinc - INSTEON Phase Coupler (2406H). These will be installed adjacent to each panel, which should make the bridge between the 2 legs very reliable.

2. Link the panels using Insteon Access Points, one per panel. These will, of course, be scattered throught the house.

 

The Access Points will be used to link the various parts of the wiring, while the hard-wired coupler will handle bridging the two phases. As the poolhouse is only 50 feet from the house, the RF link should be able to bridge the house to the poolhouse.

 

My rationale for this scheme includes:

 

(a) Instead of requiring 2 Access Points per panel, I only need one per panel. Slightly cheaper, much cleaner, and less setup.

 

( No need to worry about picking outlets that are on separate phases. I can choose outlets that are "out of the way".

 

© Fewer Access Points means fewer clunky boxes scattered around the house.

 

Feedback? Better ideas?

 

thanks

 

This sounds like a good plan to me. The hardwired bridge is neat and clean for sure. I bridge my garage/apartment (seperate meter) with access points and it works great. I am about 75 feet from point to point on the RF, through 3 walls. I have to have two access points in the apartment to bridge the phases...I didn't have a bridge and I happen to have the access points from one of the kits I bought.

 

The only thing you might think about is IF you plan to have two Access Points in the house anyway, you could maybe save the bridge on the house panel and let the Access Points do the job. Would save you the $$ of that bridge. In the pool house, you are going to need it anyway since it is cheaper than an Access Point and surely you don't need two Access Points in the pool house...

 

Have you purchased your stuff yet? Just wondering how many Insteon Devices you intend to install.

 

...If you use access points, then they should all be hooked to one another...

 

Actually, Access Points don't really connect to one another that I can tell. They give you indication whether or not they are on seperate phases, but beyond that it doesn't matter. Once you have the powerline bridged, you can add Access Points all over the place without any "linking" or anything.

[IndyMike]

Hello someguy,

 

Can you communicate with your garage devices when the AP is behaving normally (not flashing continuously)?

 

It sounds like you have a noise source that is fooling the AP into believing it's seeing "X10 start codes". Although the AP won't repeat X10, it will respond to it. That being the case, you have a troubleshooting tool. Unplug/disable possible offenders until the flashing goes away.

 

I replied to your post over on the other forum earlier. Your garage circuit should be GFCI protected. If the GFI is not in your garage (outlet) or at your panel (GFCI breaker) check your bathrooms. On older homes it was allowable to use the bathroom circuit to power the garage (current code requires a dedicated bathroom circuit now).

 

The point here is that your garage circuit may be "shared" in other areas of the house (including outdoor outlets and post lamps).

 

Let us know how things are progressing,

IM

 

I went out to check the AP that was flashing before and it is no longer flashing. I'll have to keep checking it and try to figure out what is causing it.

[IndyMike]

Hi John,

 

As I understand your configuration, you essentially have two main panels -

 

1) Panel 1 (house) : Phase A and B, feeds 4 sub panels. These will be on the same phase as panel 1 (linked by 220V breakers in panel 1).

2) Panel 2 (pool house): Separate drop from the transformer. Phase A and B feeds 1 sub panel. The sub panel should be on the same phase as Panel 2 (again linked by a 220V breaker in panel 2).

 

I'm not sure if you were proposing to add a phase coupler at every sub-panel. As long as you don't have "firewalls" (noise suppression circuits) between your panels, this isn't really necessary. A minimalist approach would be the following:

 

1) One hardwired phase coupler on Panel 1 (main/house). This will couple the phases from transformer 1 and feed the four sub panels.

2) One hardwired phase coupler on Panel 2 (Pool house). As in "1" this will couple the phases from transformer 2 and feed it's subpanel.

3) An AP in the house and one in the Pool house. Provide Insteon RF coupling from Panel 1 to Panel 2.

 

I like the hardwire coupler at the panel (I use a X10 coupler) because I believe is saves 1 Insteon message hop when crossing the phases. I would also suggest that you place your PLM as close to the panel as possible (preferably on a dedicated circuit).

 

I don't have a lot of experience with widely separated AP's (RF coupling). I have two AP's in my home, both on the second floor roughly 50' apart.

 

Being minimalist, the above is a starting point. You will loose signal level crossing the phases through the passive phase coupler. Whether or not this configuration will work depends on the circuit distance (line length) between the panel(s) and your Insteon devices, and the presence of noise sources/signal absorbers.

 

Keep us updated as you progress,

IM

 

 

I have a fairly large and complex wiring setup: two completely separate electrical feeds from the street (my poolhouse is on a separate meter). The poolhouse has a main panel and a sub-panel. My house has 4 sub-panels.

 

I plan to use the following setup to create a reliable configuration:

 

1. Bridge the 2 legs of each sub-panel with the hard-wired SignaLinc - INSTEON Phase Coupler (2406H). These will be installed adjacent to each panel, which should make the bridge between the 2 legs very reliable.

2. Link the panels using Insteon Access Points, one per panel. These will, of course, be scattered throught the house.

 

[johnradams]

Thanks to several of you for your excellent ideas and feedback. Somehow I didn't have the "send an email when someone posts" feature turned on for this thread, so I am only now catching up.

 

I posted elsewhere some additional specifics on my configuration (search for my posts for the thread about comm issues).

 

Main house: IndyMike, as you can see from the other post, the main house has essentially 2 main panels (a 400 amp feed with 2 panels that are "peers"; I don't want to open up the massive disconnect or any of the 400 amp stuff!). You are correct in that the various sub-panels are fed from the 2 main panels. I thought I would put a hard-wired coupler in a dedicated junction box (right next to the panel) on dedicated breakers for the 2 main panels. Perhaps I don't need more than that.

 

Poolhouse: as you can read in the other thread, this has a few additional complications, but what I now understand is that a single coupler at the main panel will work nicely.

 

With my unconventional use of circuits connected to rack-mount UPS, plus the generator panel, and need to link together two buildings, I will probably be glad to have additional Access Points and couplers. I have 6 Access Points, not all yet properly deployed as I am waiting for delivery and installation of the hard-wired couplers. I've got a friendly moon-lighting electrician who will do the panel work for me on-the-cheap. The hard-wire couplers are only $25 (that's the price of the part, plus maybe $25 for my guy to install using material I supply), so seems like a nice solution.

 

I like being able to use the Access Points without worrying about which phase they are plugged into; makes it simpler, and I can choose unobtrusive outlets, too. My wife (and I) dislike clunky boxes. BTW, I am very keen on the newish OutletLinc devices, and have been using them a good bit. Very clean.

 

I have pushing 50 devices so far, and will be adding more. I am striving for a clean implementation that is reliable and maintainable.

 

BTW, you might enjoy reading about my little circuit which will control a valve to send water from my fishpond to the top of a little waterfall. It's in that other thread, (sorry to not be so good about my posting style; I start typing and get on a roll....).

[johnradams]

I have six Access Points, not all yet properly deployed as I am waiting for delivery and installation of (four) hard-wired couplers.

 

Once my system is completely clean and reliable, then I will figure out what extra stuff I might have and make it available here or perhaps on eBay. Reliability first; optimization second.