Garage Door Opening after Power Failure

[bbuchanan99]

Hello all.  I have an issue and thought I would start a new thread on the topic.  I have an issue with my garage door going up after a power failure.  I did a search before I decided to write this post, and came across a couple threads many years old on the issue but none seemed to ever solve the issue.  So if someone has a link to a thread that solves this issue send it my way.

 

My configuration:

 

I have a ISY 994i pro ver 4.4.6 and an IOlinc v41 hooked up to my garage door.  In the closed state the relay is off and the sensor is on.  After a power failure, it appears a query is made and this triggers the opening of the garage door.  I have not been able to re-create it but I did look at the logs after a power failure and an ISY Query event is logged.  

 

On the Iolinc the trigger reverse is checked and momentary b is checked.  Momentary hold is at 2 seconds.  

 

In previous posts it appears there was an issue with previous versions of the IOlinc but v41 is well beyond those versions.

 

So, any new ideas or solutions?  The Chief Executive Officer of the home has deemed this unacceptable and has mandated a solution.  Performance bonus is based on timely resolution.  

 

Thanks in advance.

[Teken]

You have at least three things happening. Trigger reverse needs to be removed. You need to change the sensor if you wish to see the I/O Linc LED follow the doors true state.

 

The ISY will need to be placed on a UPS to avoid the auto query upon start up or you can disable it.

 

Placing the controller on a UPS is the preferred choice however.

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[mwester]

Yep, undo the trigger reverse -- change the sensor/switch so that you can do that.

 

The trigger reverse option is perhaps the single worst option in the entire Insteon family of devices.  I'm not sure if the issue is that it's implemented so poorly, or if it's designed poorly - but there's no doubt it's just plain wrong.  Not even buggy - just wrong.

[elvisimprsntr]

Precisely why I don't use an IOLinc for GD control. Not reliable enough. I had too many of them fail in too many different ways for unexplained reasons. I use an Elk relay output and zone input for door closed mag switch.

 

Also seems like an accident waiting to happen. If the door will open un-commanded after power failure, can it close too? Don't get me started about the dangers of blindly closing a garage door

Edited July 7, 2016 by elvisimprsntr

[stusviews]

Only the ISY system query causes a difficulty with trigger reverse. HouseLinc didn't, for example.

[G W]

 

 

Don't get me started about the dangers of blindly closing a garage door

I have been remotely closing my garage door for years. With all the built in safety features there is little to no danger.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[elvisimprsntr]

I have been remotely closing my garage door for years. With all the built in safety features there is little to no danger.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

As long as it's with a camera to make sure the door is clear.

 

A good article on the liabilities of automating a garage door.

http://www.cepro.com/article/potential_legal_liabilities_for_integrating_garage_doors_with_home_automati

Edited July 7, 2016 by elvisimprsntr

[larryllix]

The big concern that us usually dreamed up is the child next door crawls under the door as it is closing and the door beam does not see him/her in time to stop, and the door jam sensor is not set sensitive enough to reverse the motor without physical damage to the child.

 

Web cameras sending live action of your automatic GDO would usually be too far delayed and not only would you, not see the child in time, but would not be able to react and send a successful GDO stop signal through all the cloud proxies and bridges to stop the door in time.

 

With al the delays of this idea you will not be able to respond with enough speed to prevent anything. Mechanisms have to be in place on site. If people are concerned about the lawyers getting rich with their "could" and "should" and "possibility" they could install a multitude of beams and/or a grid pattern beam detections system which are available from some of security type paranoia generator/dealers.

 

Uncheck the "trigger reverse" option and re-write your program to handle the logic indicating your door is in the opposite position, as before. Changing the sensor accomplishes nothing except you may not have to relabel your sensing point name in ISY, as GDO.closed to GDO.open, or vice versa.

[bbuchanan99]

Thanks for all the replies...So a couple things.  I have an elk gold panel so would love to hear more about that option.  What does the trigger reverse even do?  Why do I need to do an auto query at power-up?  The UPS was my 1st idea and I have implemented that.  Honestly, I don't automate the garage door closing or opening with the insteon.  I have a keypad in my shed that i use as a "incase we get locked out" option to open the door and I have a 8 button switch next to our bed that runs the door and lights red when its open.  That way when we go to bed, I can assure the door closed status.  So I am not really trying to be to automated with the door more just status and "controlled" open/close.

 

BTW.  Thank you all for the replies.

[MWareman]

If you have an Elk panel, use a zone as an entry zone (wiring it to the mag sensor), and use the output to trigger the door.

 

This is what I do. It's been absolutely flawless. Thru the Elk module, you can still control! The door, and get status.

[DennisC]

I consider controlling my garage door opener a critical operation. I take anything I consider critical directly to my Elk. I wire it to a relay and have the Elk control the relay. With the Elk module and a program, opening and closing my garage door opener is controllable by my ISY.

 

I also have a wide gap contact on my garage door that is wired to my Elk. Since my ISY can monitor this contact, I have another program to monitor open/close status. If the door is open after a certain time at night for x amount of time, my Elk system announces the garage door is open.

 

Dennis

[larryllix]

Thanks for all the replies...So a couple things. I have an elk gold panel so would love to hear more about that option. What does the trigger reverse even do? Why do I need to do an auto query at power-up? The UPS was my 1st idea and I have implemented that. Honestly, I don't automate the garage door closing or opening with the insteon. I have a keypad in my shed that i use as a "incase we get locked out" option to open the door and I have a 8 button switch next to our bed that runs the door and lights red when its open. That way when we go to bed, I can assure the door closed status. So I am not really trying to be to automated with the door more just status and "controlled" open/close.

 

BTW. Thank you all for the replies.

TRigger Reverse was SmartyPant's idea to reverse the status logic, so scenes, without smarts like ISY, could still function. Trouble is, when a query is issued it reports the true state instead of the reversed status..

 

When ISY boots up it knows nothing about device's states. The whole system is mainly a report by exception (event trigerred). Until something sends it's change in status, ISY is blind. A Query gets a status response from most devices and then ISY remembers the last known state of each device.

Edited July 8, 2016 by larryllix

[bbuchanan99]

Thanks...Ok all that makes sense.  So my main reason for the insteon was obviously the ease of using existing house wiring for communication.  But as i think about it, I can fairly easily drop a line to the contact and the opener and get it into my elk.  I'll put that on my list, but next up is beacon integration and alexa integration

[Brian H]

The Reverse Trigger was originally not needed. That was when the Garage Door Kit had a better magnetic switch in it. With both a Normally Open and Normally Closed set of contacts. Smarthome replaced it with a cheaper switch.

[Teken]

*Safety Nancy*

 

I can tell you with 100% certainty what elvisimprsntr offered in terms of risk & liabilities should not be summarily dismissed. Regardless of the method you use to remotely control your GDO there are many basic elements which maybe 2% of the population actually ever does.

 

I've blogged about this for more than 25 years and have yet to see, read, or witness a soul ever doing the following. Keeping in mind none of this is fun, exciting, or top of mind given the real world.

 

1. Smoke Alarms: Perform monthly checks by pressing the test button. Change out the batteries based on DST change or validate the voltage with a DMM to ensure the batteries are still with in tolerances.

 

2. AFCI / GFCI: Perform monthly checks by pressing the test button. Ensuring the unit trips and can be reset per the manufacturers specifications.

 

I can tell you 100% of the members in this forum have failed to do the above. Now I want each and every one of you to consider the following for the GDO.

 

1. Safety Beam: Is the beam alignment to specifications? Have you tested it to ensure upon detection the door reverses?

 

2. Emergency Release: Have you confirmed the cable is sound and properly attached. Does pulling the release operate per the makers specifications?

 

3. Torsion Springs: Have you inspected and confirmed all springs are sound and loaded per the door load?

 

4. Counter Balance: With the emergency release enabled does the door hold its position in all positions? Can you lift the door with one finger and it shoots straight to the top?

 

If so wrong . . .

 

Does it require both hands with great strength to lift or pull the door up or down?

 

If so wrong . . .

 

A properly balanced door will require one hand to lift and pull from the handle with a minimal of force. The door should never shoot straight up - if it does the amount of turns on the torsion spring is preloaded too high and will result in early failure. If the reverse is true then it will require too much effort to lift the door when the GDO fails.

 

All of the above impacts the GDO motors long term service life . . .

 

5. Force Detection: Following the makers installation manual the force detection must be calibrated and validated on a regular basis to ensure it meets the stated specifications.

 

6. Crush Depth: Is the GDO properly set to close at the proper depth per the makers installation guide lines?

 

These six basic things I can guarantee you not a soul has ever done on a regular basis, none. If people can't even do the smoke, AFCI, GFCI, monthly checks what makes them think they would ever consider doing the six inspection elements I just listed for the GDO?!?!?

 

This doesn't even address basic maintenance of checking the rails, guides, and wheels. Anyone who feels uncomfortable in doing any of the 6 steps I listed off I would encourage you to call a certified GDO installer you trust to perform the very same. Have them show you each of the steps so you can do it later.

 

Doing so essentially has given you a paid lesson to the inner workings of your GDO which is for the better. In my travels I have seen more damaged cars, bikes, and sadly deaths because people don't take the time to ensure the largest door in their home is properly installed and operating.

 

To think the latest fad is literal remote control from clear across the globe with out a second thought.

 

Safety Nancy Out . . .

Edited July 8, 2016 by Teken

[mykanderson]

I had this exact problem.  I fixed it by making it a momentary A.  I also had to change the hold time to 10 seconds to get a wireless switch to work properly in the car. 

[MarkJames]

I'll add two comments...

 

First - I am - coincidentally as we speak - changing my garage door over to being run by my Elk.  Not for the same reason as yours - but for another one that you may encounter - the dreaded PLM all-on/all-off event.  When I recently replaced a failed PLM with a backup it turned out that the replacement was prone to 'all-on' events which caused my door to open or close.  Not good.  I mention this only to point out that there are multiple reasons to ditch Insteon GDO control.

 

I have access to my GDO wiring from my Elk - but if you don't then it's a simple matter of sacrificing a GDO remote control and tying into the buttons with relays connected to the Elk outputs.  

 

The second thing I'll comment on is what Teken mentioned re: door closing pressure.  I recently had my door replaced and the installers did not adjust the closing pressure.  I drove in but didn't back in far enough.  I hit the down button and walked away only to hear the door get caught on my bumper and apply so much pressure that it collapsed the top panel of the garage door!  I was stunned how strong it was.  It's definitely worth checking this out (probably worth checking everything he mentioned)

 

mark

Edited July 18, 2016 by MarkJames

[stusviews]

The second thing I'll comment on is what Teken mentioned re: door closing pressure.  I recently had my door replaced and the installers did not adjust the closing pressure.  I drove in but didn't back in far enough.  I hit the down button and walked away only to hear the door get caught on my bumper and apply so much pressure that it collapsed the top panel of the garage door!  I was stunned how strong it was.  It's definitely worth checking this out (probably worth checking everything he mentioned)

 

The safety beams are not in the correct position.

[G W]

The safety beams are not in the correct position.

Why do you say that?

 

I seen that same problem with the safety beam at the correct height.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[stusviews]

If the garage door can touch the vehicle at any point when closed or closing, then the safety beams are not in the correct position. Height is only part of the correct placement.

[G W]

If the garage door can touch the vehicle at any point when closed or closing, then the safety beams are not in the correct position. Height is only part of the correct placement.

That's just wrong. My SUV can be out 1 inch too far and not interfere with the beam. Yet to door will hit the bumper and not close.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[mwester]

I'm reasonably sure that any of my vehicles will hang out over the beam.  It's pretty low.  I suppose I could add another beam, to catch my SUV's bumper (which is the most sticky-outest part).  And another to catch the much-lower bumper on the wife's VW for when she parks in the garage.  Perhaps another if the snow-blower handles (higher than both cars) stick out if I'm ever careless in putting it away.

 

My point is that I don't think it's practical to have a beam cover the entire door plane, and most certainly none I've ever encountered does.

[Teken]

As I stated above all of the safety measures need to be adjusted and calibrated per the makers recommendations for the loads and unique environmentals at play.

 

Of note newer models like mine also monitor the cable tension and this is yet another element that needs to be fine tuned and fully operational.

 

When the safety eye is not operating as expected the other elements come into play in a critical manner. Its not just the fact the door should auto- reverse itself its how much force it must detect before doing so. Lastly, the crush depth setting is one of many critical setting(s) to ensure a long lasting door gasket seal.

 

In my travels all of the DIYers that have done it themselves almost always crush the door to the dead bottom.

 

This Is Wrong . . .

 

The amount of deflection is based on the thickness, material type, and surface level.

 

The largest door in the home should never allow any light / air movement to enter a properly sealed door assembly.

[G W]

Mandatory standards are for the electric eyes to activate at 6 inches.

 

DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association

Look at #7 - the six inch rule

 

From the CPSC

 

Mandatory Standards:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2004-title16-vol1/content-detail.html

16 CFR part 1211

TITLE 16--COMMERCIAL PRACTICES

 

CHAPTER II--CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION

 

PART 1211--SAFETY STANDARD FOR AUTOMATIC RESIDENTIAL GARAGE DOOR

OPERATORS--Table of Contents

 

Subpart A--The Standard

 

Sec. 1211.11 Requirements for photoelectric sensors.

 

(a) Normal operation test. (1) When installed as described in Sec.

1211.10(a) (1)-(4), a photoelectric sensor shall sense an obstruction as

described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section that is to be placed on

the floor at three points over the width of the door opening, at

distances of 1 foot (305 mm) from each end and the midpoint.

(2) The obstruction noted in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall

consist of a white vertical surface 6 inches (152 mm) high by 12 inches

(305 mm) long. The obstruction is to be centered under the door

perpendicular to the plane of the door when in the closed position. See

figure 3.

 

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited July 19, 2016 by GaryFunk

[stusviews]

I don't see anything about 6" other than the block used for the stationary test. Reading further on:

 

§ 1211.11
(2) The moving object is to consist of a 1 7⁄8 inch (47.6  mm) diameter  cylindrical rod, 34 1⁄2 inches (876  mm) long, with the axis point being 34 inches (864mm) from the end. The axis point is to be fixed at a point centered  directly above the beam of the photoelectric sensor 36 inches (914  mm) above the floor. The photoelectric sensor is to be mounted at the highest position as recommended by the manufacturer. The rod is to be swung as a pendulum through the photoelectric sensor’s beam from a position 45 degrees from the plane of the door when in the closed position. See figure 4.

 

Emphasis added