someguy Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 I was thinking that it would be helpful to know how often my sump pump usually runs and set up some programs that send an alert to me if it ran too long or too often? how could my ISY know that my Sump pump is running though? 1
ronvond Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 My sump pump is plugged into a Synchro-Linc I also monitor my sump pump, using just a Synchro-Linc and the following program\\ Program One. Pump Run Counter If Status “Basement / Sump Monitor is ON Then $Pump_Run_Counter += 1 Else No actions Program Two. Sump Pump Reset If Time is 12:00:00AM Then $Daily_Run = $Pump_Run_Counter $Pump_Run_Counter = 0 Else No actions The program allows me to see how often the pump ran the previous day by viewing the $Daily_Run variable, as well as how often it ran today using the $Pump_Run_Counter variable.
paulbates Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) You can plug the sump pump into one of these, add it to your SIY, and monitor its on time with an ISY program to count up the runtime. There are several ways to write the program. The simplest <this counts runtime in addition to the cycles Ron documented above> If status sumppump is on then repeat every 1 minute sumpminutecounter +-1 Sumpminutetimer is an integer variable in the programs tab. You can clear it out when you want to, write a program to do it daily after sending a notification. You can also write a program that says If sumpminutecunter > 20 (whatever number you want then send notificaiton to https://www.smarthome.com/synchrolinc-insteon-2423a5-power-synching-controller.html They're on sale.. I've been wanting to do this for my dehumidifier in the basement..... Paul Edited September 5, 2017 by paulbates
Teken Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 I was thinking that it would be helpful to know how often my sump pump usually runs and set up some programs that send an alert to me if it ran too long or too often? how could my ISY know that my Sump pump is running though? If this is geared toward a Insteon solution than a Synchrolinc would be your hardware choice. If you have a Z-Wave enabled controller you can purchase any of the energy monitoring outlets. I already do this on a much larger and complex way via energy monitoring / energy management.
KeviNH Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 Synchro-Linc is definitely the easy and cost-effective way, and has the advantage of not risking accidentally turning off a remote-controlled switch and forgetting to turn it back on. I would add the Synchro-Linc as a controller for a scene with a rarely used light, then you might notice the sump pump is acting erratically just from seeing the light.
someguy Posted September 6, 2017 Author Posted September 6, 2017 okay, thank you all very much. This is exactly what I was looking for and the fact that it cannot be turned accidentally turned off is great.
larryllix Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) Caution that Apostokisl? added in other posts... SynchroLincs contain a wired-in, non-replaceable fuse inside, that can blow from the surge of sump pumps. This would leave your sump pump not functioning at all. I would watch the unit very closely for the first few dozen trials of test runs and avoid usage of larger sump pumps on synchroLincs. I have been running a clothes dryer on mine and although I have had a lot of failures, and it has become totally unreliable for reporting correctly, a fuse has never blown in two years of operation. Edited September 6, 2017 by larryllix
mwester Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 What larrylix says. I've blown that fuse, when I tried the syncrolinc on a 3/4HP sump pump. It lasted for a while, then eventually failed -- the startup surge for a pump can be significant, especially when under significant load (a dry-run test will not only damage the pump, it'll be utterly meaningless for measuring startup surge!). We were saved from an ugly mess by a high-water alarm -- always, always engineer a solution with failure in mind! I cannot recommend a syncrolinc for pumps of 1/2HP or greater. 2
someguy Posted September 6, 2017 Author Posted September 6, 2017 I have one 1/2 HP sump pump and another that is 1/3 HP. What if I was to set up a program that assesses whether the Synchrolinc is responding and if it isn't responding then I could check the pump? Would that work? (Of course, this assumes I'm home all of the time and I'm not.)
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Given the possible faults in this Insteon solution you may want to consider a Z-Wave energy monitor plug? If you don't have Z-Wave than a I/O Linc coupled with a CT is another choice. As stated early on monitoring critical loads in my home was a key objective for me. Because of this I went all in and installed a Brultech GEM. Going this route allows me to monitor 64 discreet circuits without worry of a fault. Having integrated all of this with Alexa & Julie U.S. and custom emails I know everything that is on, off, how long, too short, too hot, too cold, exceeds watts, KWH, current, volt-amps, PF, etc. for me this is for the long haul and thus invested accordingly because I'm done with wasting money and time. Just my thoughts . . . Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
larryllix Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 What larrylix says. I've blown that fuse, when I tried the syncrolinc on a 3/4HP sump pump. It lasted for a while, then eventually failed -- the startup surge for a pump can be significant, especially when under significant load (a dry-run test will not only damage the pump, it'll be utterly meaningless for measuring startup surge!). We were saved from an ugly mess by a high-water alarm -- always, always engineer a solution with failure in mind! I cannot recommend a syncrolinc for pumps of 1/2HP or greater. Maybe it was you then. A slow blow style of fuse should have been installed for the manufacturer. This tells us how cheap The Smarties are in manufacturing products. Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Maybe it was you then. A slow blow style of fuse should have been installed for the manufacturer. This tells us how cheap The Smarties are in manufacturing products. Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk The decision to use a slow blow vs fast blow fuse is dictated by the tolerances of the hardware design. I can assure you inserting a slow blow fuse would have damaged the Synchro Linc completely. So instead of a primary protection a slow blow fuse would have allowed excessive amperes to continue to flow through the hardware and thus letting out the magic smoke permanently. People should not assume changing out a specified fuse is a small thing.
larryllix Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) The decision to use a slow blow vs fast blow fuse is dictated by the tolerances of the hardware design. I can assure you inserting a slow blow fuse would have damaged the Synchro Linc completely. So instead of a primary protection a slow blow fuse would have allowed excessive amperes to continue to flow through the hardware and thus letting out the magic smoke permanently. People should not assume changing out a specified fuse is a small thing. Mechanical electrical conductors are very long slow blow curves. Contacts and electronic parts aren't making them hard to match destruction curves for protection designers. Aluminum wiring is worse due to it's exponential resistance to temperarure curve. Copper can glow red hot and not vapourise due to the opposite curve style. A slow blow should never be a problem for a piece of copper conductor wire with a CT core around it as the thermal curve of a slow blow fuse is shorter than a simple conductor. YMMV Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk Edited September 6, 2017 by larryllix
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Mechanical electrical conductors are very long slow blow curves. Contacts and electronic parts aren't making them hard to match destruction curves for protection designers. Aluminum wiring is worse due to it's exponential resistance to temperarure curve. Copper can glow red hot and not vapourise due to the opposite curve style. A slow blow should never be a problem for a piece of copper conductor wire with a CT core around it as the thermal curve of a slow blow fuse is shorter than a simple conductor. YMMV Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk That isn't what I'm talking about at all. My key point is a person can't assume they can stick any kind of fuse (slow blow vs quick blow) fuse into a piece of hardware. My reply was to affirm doing so would more than likely permanently damage the Syncho Linc should a large inrush current be present. The reason Mwester blew a fuse is because his environment saw an amperage that exceeded the fuse rating. I won't debate whether or not the Insteon design is sound that is a totally different conversation. Regardless, a person can't just wild willy insert a larger amperage fuse, or a completely different protection system that the system wasn't designed to accept like a slow blow fuse. In all likely hood if Mwester had inserted a slow blow fuse as a replacement the entire board would have been damaged and not just the fuse itself. Fuses are in place for several reasons and primary its to meet safety certifications and that often translates to protecting the hardware itself.
mwester Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 I'll pop in with a few comments here: - I agree with Teken, actually -- I removed the original fuse, and used the printed numbers on it to find an identical replacement (on Amazon; not easy to find). I didn't want to take any chances of starting a fire in the Syncrolinc by over-fusing it -- the 15amp fuse is there to protect the *sycrolinc* from melting internally, not the load or the cord to the load! - Regarding querying the Syncrolinc (question from the original poster): Yes, that's a good idea. But be prepared for lots of false alarms. When I did that, I found that the device wouldn't respond to queries during the motor startup period. I put a wired-in 20A X10 filter on the load side - that helped, so I got the signal that the load had turned on. But the device still had trouble responding from time to time, for no good reason. - I can't find that thread where I described my final solution, perhaps someone with better "search fu" can... but in a nutshell, I replaced the whole setup with an IOLinc that was triggered by a current-operated switch. The current-operated switch is what the syncrolinc should have been, had it been properly designed -- it's a current transformer, that encircles the hot wire. Thus it does not sit in-circuit, and therefore it has no fuses to blow and no other parts that can cause the circuit to be disrupted. That setup has been working perfectly for a long, long time now. - Finally, regarding the knowledge one might gain from monitoring a pump like this: it's huge. For me, it's far more than just "is my pump running" -- I have a filter screen involved, and by monitoring the run times for a couple of years now, I can pretty much gauge exactly when it's time to clean that screen. So my ISY monitors that for me, and when it detects several pump cycles that all have crossed the threshold, and all are trending upwards in time, it lights up a KPL button (labelled, appropriately enough, "ALARM", with red plastic behind the button). I also have a heavy-duty relay connected to the IOLinc so that if the pump cycle goes waaaay to long, the ISY can shut off the pump to avoid burning it out. Another program runs hourly, and turns it back on after an hour (when it's cooled down), and lets it try to pump some more -- this will continue ad-infinitum, in the hopes that enough water is getting through the clogged filter that cycling like that will prevent an overflow. And since it's actually a septic tank, an overflow is a messy business that we want no part of!
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 For me, energy monitoring translates directly to energy management in my home environment. Knowing something is only part of the big puzzle ~ Its using that new found knowledge that allows you to manage in band vs out of band conditions. With the tight integration of the ISY Series Controller with my Brultech GEM I am all knowing and in control of the homes superstructure. Lots of this on the surface may seem like a novelty but Mwester has shown one perfect example of how *Knowing* helps reduce loss and failures. Being able to know when the washer, dryer, dishwasher, fridge, freezer, sump, stove, furnace, air conditioner, solar PV, generator, etc. Are on, off, how long, how many cycles, provides long term insight on performance and impending faults. As stated in here; http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/22433-how-could-i-monitor-how-much-my-sump-pump-is-running/?p=219165 and affirmed by Mwester a I/O Linc with the appropriate CT offers the best long term use and experience (IF) Insteon is the method of choice.
apostolakisl Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 An alternative to using a synchrolinc which avoids running power through the syncrolinc itself is to use a relay and a I/O linc. The float switch closes the circuit to the pump. You can wire a relay in parrallel with the motor. When the motor is on, then relay is closed. Connecting the relay to the io linc will let you know when the relay is on or off and thus when the pump is on or off. For further knowledge, you can put a pressure switch on the pump outflow and connect it to an io linc. Now you will know that the pump is actually pumping water. A combination of an io linc on the power to the pump and to the pressure switch will tell you if the pump should be running but isn't (pump burned out). And furthermore, you could put a separate float switch higher up to trigger an io linc in the event that the water is getting too high. And if you are going to do all those io lincs, you could instead go with a webcontrol board and have 8 inputs all in one device. However, you need to get internet to the webcontrol board.
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) An alternative to using a synchrolinc which avoids running power through the syncrolinc itself is to use a relay and a I/O linc. The float switch closes the circuit to the pump. You can wire a relay in parrallel with the motor. When the motor is on, then relay is closed. Connecting the relay to the io linc will let you know when the relay is on or off and thus when the pump is on or off. For further knowledge, you can put a pressure switch on the pump outflow and connect it to an io linc. Now you will know that the pump is actually pumping water. A combination of an io linc on the power to the pump and to the pressure switch will tell you if the pump should be running but isn't (pump burned out). And furthermore, you could put a separate float switch higher up to trigger an io linc in the event that the water is getting too high. And if you are going to do all those io lincs, you could instead go with a webcontrol board and have 8 inputs all in one device. However, you need to get internet to the webcontrol board. All great options and solutions. Assuming the OP wants to stick with Insteon he could also go with the Smartenit: https://www.smarthome.com/smartenit-ezio8sa-insteon-compatible-input-output-controller.html Like you just because you monitor one thing it won't cover all bases which your example illustrated. I talked about the very same when the topic was for monitoring a freezer / fridge. Just because you monitor for power (watts) or line voltage it doesn't offer the true insight of other failures in the system. Freezer Examples: Monitor for voltage: This doesn't tell you if the door is ajar, thermostat is set too low / too high, Freon leak, leaky seal, etc. Monitor for Temperature: This doesn't tell you if line voltage has been lost for an extended period of time, thermostat is faulty causing long run times, etc Monitor for Power: This doesn't tell you if the temperature is with in the safe operating range, leaky seals, low Freon, compressor fault, etc Edited September 6, 2017 by Teken
larryllix Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 That isn't what I'm talking about at all. My key point is a person can't assume they can stick any kind of fuse (slow blow vs quick blow) fuse into a piece of hardware. My reply was to affirm doing so would more than likely permanently damage the Syncho Linc should a large inrush current be present. The reason Mwester blew a fuse is because his environment saw an amperage that exceeded the fuse rating. I won't debate whether or not the Insteon design is sound that is a totally different conversation. Regardless, a person can't just wild willy insert a larger amperage fuse, or a completely different protection system that the system wasn't designed to accept like a slow blow fuse. In all likely hood if Mwester had inserted a slow blow fuse as a replacement the entire board would have been damaged and not just the fuse itself. Fuses are in place for several reasons and primary its to meet safety certifications and that often translates to protecting the hardware itself. Being involved with overcurrent protection matching curves for 34 years, I would disagree with the assumption a higher quality fuse would likely damage the SynchroLinc. I don't think anybody can assume the Synchrolinc would be damaged, and the SynchroLinc design makes it very unlikely. Opening up my SynchroLinc I see a fuse, a calibrated current shunt, and some #14 AWG wire between the supply plug and the receptacle, all rated to carry anything that can be plugged into it, except for, maybe the fuse. The nameplate on my SynchroLinc states 120 vac at 15 amperes. No mention of incandescent only or motor loads either. This is likely due to no electronic components or contacts involved in the circuit. Nothing in this circuit is incapable of handling short term surges of 5-10 times that any typical motor would draw. In addition the SynchroLink is plugged into a house circuit with a breaker circuit than will allow 10,000 amperes for a very short period. The SynchoLinc did not require a fuse in it's power circuit design, if plugged into an already protected for 15 ampere circuit. The fuse should have been for the sensitive electronics. Pass the CSA / ETL/ UL approval faster? Who knows? The conductors in the synchroLinc were approved to carry the rated load, and therefore a surge of 20-30 times that for a few seconds, is not likely to damage the conductors for that same reasons given previously.... good conductor metals have a longer damage time curve than any slow blow fuse. Otherwise, slow blow fuses wouldn't exist and this is what they are designed for....to limit the amount of time a particular current that can flow without damaging equipment. It's all about understanding overcurrent protection curves. No suggestion was made to increase the rating of the fuse, only the time curve that the fuse will allow. This is standard procedure and acceptable code practice with any fused distribution panel to replace standard fuses with slow-blow, or dual element fuse types, where a motor load is connected. Many dual element fuses blow at lower currents than their fast-blow counterparts given the same current ratings. They are consider better protection. However, supporting your point. (and a good warning) People should not change electrical designs, on an assumption that it should work, especially putting in electrical protection when they do not understand the potential consequences. There are other solutions for most people. 1
MWareman Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) My sumps are each on a dedicated circuit to the panel, and I feed data to my ISY via a Brultech Dashbox with data from my Brultech GEM reporting use. Works well for me... with no increase in failure modes over a non-monitored solution. Brultech is pricy if this is all you are doing. I wonder if there are any cheaper solutions that use a CT clamp to monitor current and can trigger an iolinc based on thresholds... so we can avoid the failure modes of a synchrolinc.... Edited September 6, 2017 by MWareman
Teken Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Being involved with overcurrent protection matching curves for 34 years, I would disagree with the assumption a higher quality fuse would likely damage the SynchroLinc. I don't think anybody can assume the Synchrolinc would be damaged, and the SynchroLinc design makes it very unlikely. Opening up my SynchroLinc I see a fuse, a calibrated current shunt, and some #14 AWG wire between the supply plug and the receptacle, all rated to carry anything that can be plugged into it, except for, maybe the fuse. The nameplate on my SynchroLinc states 120 vac at 15 amperes. No mention of incandescent only or motor loads either. This is likely due to no electronic components or contacts involved in the circuit. Nothing in this circuit is incapable of handling short term surges of 5-10 times that any typical motor would draw. In addition the SynchroLink is plugged into a house circuit with a breaker circuit than will allow 10,000 amperes for a very short period. The SynchoLinc did not require a fuse in it's power circuit design, if plugged into an already protected for 15 ampere circuit. The fuse should have been for the sensitive electronics. Pass the CSA / ETL/ UL approval faster? Who knows? The conductors in the synchroLinc were approved to carry the rated load, and therefore a surge of 20-30 times that for a few seconds, is not likely to damage the conductors for that same reasons given previously.... good conductor metals have a longer damage time curve than any slow blow fuse. Otherwise, slow blow fuses wouldn't exist and this is what they are designed for....to limit the amount of time a particular current that can flow without damaging equipment. It's all about understanding overcurrent protection curves. No suggestion was made to increase the rating of the fuse, only the time curve that the fuse will allow. This is standard procedure and acceptable code practice with any fused distribution panel to replace standard fuses with slow-blow, or dual element fuse types, where a motor load is connected. Many dual element fuses blow at lower currents than their fast-blow counterparts given the same current ratings. They are consider better protection. However, supporting your point. (and a good warning) People should not change electrical designs, on an assumption that it should work, especially putting in electrical protection when they do not understand the potential consequences. There are other solutions for most people. I would affirm once again, if a slow blow fuse was intended it would have been incorporated into the final hardware. My feedback is strictly to enforce the material facts that a person can't *Wild Willy* replace a quick blow fuse with something not intended to be present. Also, I am extremely confident those who ignore the above and use a slow blow fuse will have nothing but a smoldering brick should a out of band current condition exist. Many of us can already state Insteon hardware isn't the best and thought out designs which use the best electronic parts. The Synchro Linc like its other siblings: Energy Meter, iSolo, 240 load controller, Toggle Linc, etc haven't seen a update in hardware design since product launch.
MWareman Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Here is a circuit to interface a CT to an Arduino to measure current. I'll bet you could modify the sketch to call the ISY API via REST directly. It would be cheaper than a synchrolinc and not affect the reliability of the sump.... https://openenergymonitor.org/forum-archive/node/156.html
apostolakisl Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Here is a circuit to interface a CT to an Arduino to measure current. I'll bet you could modify the sketch to call the ISY API via REST directly. It would be cheaper than a synchrolinc and not affect the reliability of the sump.... https://openenergymonitor.org/forum-archive/node/156.html You really don't need to get so complicated and measure current. Since the pump itself has a simple on/off switch (the float switch), you can easily just wire a relay to that same output and effectively be monitoring the float switch. If you have an always on PC or RPi, you can put ioguys nodelink on it and put a webcontrol board directly onto an ISY (5.x firmware only). It works well. I have this setup with using a reed switch that webcontrol monitors and nodlink synchornizes to ISY. webcontrol has 8 of these inputs so for $40 you can monitor quite a few things. A relay and a float switch and a pressure switch together might cost another $40?
larryllix Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Easiest and cheapest yet. Put a push rod arrangement with a float at the bottom end and an Insteon door/window sensor at the top end of it. A few brackets with holes and some threaded rod could do it. For the float a toliet float may screw right onto the end. Battery monitoring signal security should be easy and already done by others. To work with Apostolakisl's idea above, a float switch used for sump pumps (and readily available) could do the job. Most just work by tilt position and the wires could be directly connected by cutting off the dual plug/receptacle adapter that comes with item. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.mechanical-float-switch-10-sump.1000668933.html
apostolakisl Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 1) float switch $5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Water-Level-Sensor-Horizontal-Float-Switch-Pool-Tank-On-Off-Full-Empty-/182168941294?hash=item2a6a1d72ee:g:UAIAAOSwMf1ZoFiM This is to alert you if water gets too high. 2) Relay with mounting $10 http://www.ebay.com/itm/JQX-13F-110-120VAC-Coil-DPDT-8-Pins-Electromagnetic-Power-Relay-w-DYF08A-Socket-/271344249983?epid=1038301975&hash=item3f2d60ac7f:g:UU8AAOSw8GtZSfsB 3) Pressure Switch $10 http://www.ebay.com/itm/RDEXP-Male-Threaded-Water-Pump-pressure-switch-control-Grey/272234567911?_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D141fa7744262455db79f1d79f60563a7%26pid%3D100506%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26&_trksid=p2045573.c100506.m3226 4) CAI $45 https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00U31CWEI/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new Throw in a couple bucks for odds and ends and you can monitor it all for $80.
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