ctviggen1 Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Hi all, After reading through the current situation for the new motion sensor and the siren for Insteon, I'm getting concerned that Insteon was a bad idea. I have a ton of switches and motion sensors, all Insteon. Should I be considering a switch to Z-wave? How stable is a mixed Insteon/Z-wave system? Right now, I have no Z-wave products and my ISY 994i does not support Z-wave. To get Z-wave, it appears I have to order the Z-wave module from here: http://www.universal-devices.com/sales/modules/?uuid=uuid:00:21:b9:01:fa:fc&pid=1100 Then, I have to get the Z-wave module as described here: http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Z-Wave:_Ordering/Assembly_Instructions Does this sound correct, or am I missing something? Thank you.
paulbates Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 There are a few threads around here discussing it. I have an established Insteon system around 50 devices. I'm happy with it. Downsides of a complete zwave conversion: Losing keypad functionality - This is a deal breaker for me for a 100% Zwave system All Insteon switches report their local status back to the the ISY.. some zwave switches do, some don't..you have to validate Effort and cost of conversion. What's functionally wrong with your insteon system now? Having said that, the ISY offers the advantages of integrating both. There are many sensor product choices onzwave. Many people use both insteon and zwave together successfully. Also, you can't have another one of the interfaces installed in your ISY.. the zigbee / zigbee AMI. Only one card can be plugged into the 994i. I would consider keeping your existing insteon hardware, and adding the zwave card to enhance it. Its more than the $1 software module, there is a zwave card that installs in the ISY was well. Write UDI to ask about that Paul
G W Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 My personal opinion is a mixture of both. We've been waiting three long years for ISY 5. If you are are going to abandon Insteon you may as well abandon ISY. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk
larryllix Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Like Paul I have an all Insteon system. There are reasons I thought about dabbling in some Zwave devices to mix with my dozen other WiFi (non-Insteon) components but the only thing I can think of is maybe the garage door opener and locks. I am not interested in remote control of either. I can open my self locking deadbolt door locks using a 4 digit combination using one hand, without pausing for even for one step, and pass through now. If I want to give somebody access I can give them a one time code for a one time pass-through. No cloud required, Zwave or other protocol necessary. Garage door? Not sure I want any control over it. I get notified if I drive away from it and leave it open. I believe on home automation, with remote control being a side effect, where I haven't automated that item yet. So far I have not seen the need to jump to a grid setup of Zwave to get one or two devices not included in the Insteon cluster of products to work.
mwester Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 My personal opinion is a mixture of both. We've been waiting three long years for ISY 5. If you are are going to abandon Insteon you may as well abandon ISY. I tend to agree with Gary on this. I'm running a mix of both right now. I feel I've waited long enough for a stable 5.x release -- it's been months since 5.0.10 alpha came out, and there's just been no sign that we'll have anything any time soon on that front (frankly, I don't fault UDI -- they seem to be putting their effort into the Google and Amazon portal stuff, which is where the sex and sizzle is at). The point is that I've just stood up an alternate open-source HA package, and I'm exploring that to see if that's a better route for z-wave support. I'll be keeping at least some Insteon, although as more of those devices die I'll be replacing them with z-wave equivalents. And there's nothing better to handle the Insteon stuff, so my ISY will be staying for the long run. It's really a question of which controller I consider to be the "master" -- and for me, integration with Amazon and Google is not what makes or breaks that, alas. Others will have different priorities, of course - to each their own.
Bumbershoot Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 I tend to agree with Gary on this. I'm running a mix of both right now. I feel I've waited long enough for a stable 5.x release -- it's been months since 5.0.10 alpha came out, and there's just been no sign that we'll have anything any time soon on that front (frankly, I don't fault UDI -- they seem to be putting their effort into the Google and Amazon portal stuff, which is where the sex and sizzle is at). The point is that I've just stood up an alternate open-source HA package, and I'm exploring that to see if that's a better route for z-wave support. I'll be keeping at least some Insteon, although as more of those devices die I'll be replacing them with z-wave equivalents. And there's nothing better to handle the Insteon stuff, so my ISY will be staying for the long run. It's really a question of which controller I consider to be the "master" -- and for me, integration with Amazon and Google is not what makes or breaks that, alas. Others will have different priorities, of course - to each their own. I've got a mixed system, and I'm getting very good results with both. I use Insteon mostly for lighting, outlets and appliance control, but I have a few Z-Wave devices scattered around as well - sensors, door locks, a fan control, a water shutoff valve, garage door controls, etc. All work as intended with the ISY, but I'm running on alpha firmware that has improved support for Z-Wave multi-channel devices. Ergonomically, I prefer Insteon wall switches and outlets. For stuff that needs to be secure, I use Z-Wave. Both Insteon and Z-Wave have been nearly 100% reliable in my installation, so I'm not in any hurry to choose. I'm very curious to see if the new management of SmartLabs revitalize the Insteon brand. 1
oberkc Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Like most, I see no reason to remove perfectly good insteon device and swap with z-wave. I am happy with insteon at this point, and if I could not continue with insteon, for some reason, then the ISY offers me an option to retrofit with z-wave as insteon devices fail. Otherwise, all is good. 1
asbril Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 My personal opinion is a mixture of both. We've been waiting three long years for ISY 5. If you are are going to abandon Insteon you may as well abandon ISY. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk Gary, Please explain why one might as well abandon ISY if abandoning Insteon ? Do you consider that other ZWave hubs are better than ISY ?
G W Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 Gary, Please explain why one might as well abandon ISY if abandoning Insteon ? Do you consider that other ZWave hubs are better than ISY ? There are controllers that offer far better Z-Wave support. Yes, most other hubs are currently better at Z-Wave. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk
asbril Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 There are controllers that offer far better Z-Wave support. Yes, most other hubs are currently better at Z-Wave. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk Such as ? I only have ZWave devices and actually like ISY very much (*) , but would not mind having another hub as secondary. (*) Michel, Chris, Benoit's responsiveness and devotion are fantastic, and this forum adds tremendous value.
G W Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 Here are five. http://blog.z-wave.com/5-hubs-you-can-use-in-your-zwave There are a dozen more I can think of. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk
oberkc Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 Here are five. http://blog.z-wave.com/5-hubs-you-can-use-in-your-zwave There are a dozen more I can think of. Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk Gary, Perhaps I don't accurately perceive these hubs, but I understand that few have the automation power of the ISY. Yes, they may better support Z-wave links and scenes, but lack the logical power of the ISY. Is this inaccurate based on what you know?
kck Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 From what I can see 5.x will represent the really only viable way to support a potentially unlimited number of devices that will appear over time in the Zwave universe. So long as only Insteon was the target UDI could keep reasonably up to date since Insteon devices got released or changed pretty rarely. Not likely to be true with a large number of startups and established companies in the Zwave market. The node server approach would seem to open things up to support of devices that for reasons of timing or volume aren't supportable by UDI. For that reason I saw the architectural change UDI was making from 4 to 5 as a very positive thing. But I have been dismayed at seeing how slowly it has progressed and that is beginning to make me uncomfortable with the UDI path. I understand their conservatism and desire to only release very solid code (since that mapped to my approach for most of my career) but whether they or I like it the speed of change now has simply become too fast for that to likely be viable. Today the world is dominated by the fast turn, broad based beta approach to development. By any current standard UDI's progress on 5.x has been glacial and since I think it represents a critical need for them to stay relevant as devices in the automated home proliferate I really think they need to get a lot more aggressive about getting it out.
mwester Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 Such as ? I only have ZWave devices and actually like ISY very much (*) , but would not mind having another hub as secondary. (*) Michel, Chris, Benoit's responsiveness and devotion are fantastic, and this forum adds tremendous value. I'm currently evaluating a software solution (I fear a hub will be too limiting, not to mention that many of them are cloud-dependent). I'm looking at Home Assistant (https://home-assistant.io/) -- I've got it running on a Linux server right now, with the Aeon Labs USB z-wave stick, but if this works out it'll end up on a Raspberry Pi. I can't make heads nor tails, so to speak, of the z-wave Primary/Secondary thing -- perhaps the ISY doesn't play nice with this, but it just doesn't seem to do anything useful for me. So I moved a few devices off to the Aeon Labs stick, so that Home Assistant "owns" those; the ISY no longer sees them. (And I agree - the UDI team are fabulous! Of late, their responsiveness in terms of the new Google Home and the V3 Alexa skill are just awesome -- what other company can go from forum discussion to deployed fix in a week or less?!? But let's be honest - the Z-Wave support seems to be a very steep mountain for UDI to climb (based on the amount of time its taking). And another concern I have is that the two ISY Z-Wave dongles I have are already obsolete, and are completely proprietary to UDI -- we've been down that road with the PLM, and I'm feeling very uncomfortable right now.)
G W Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 Gary, Perhaps I don't accurately perceive these hubs, but I understand that few have the automation power of the ISY. Yes, they may better support Z-wave links and scenes, but lack the logical power of the ISY. Is this inaccurate based on what you know? There are some that have the power of ISY. There are some that have have the customer support of ISY. One would have to research to know where each hub stands. For instance HomeSeer may be a better fit for some.
lilyoyo1 Posted December 4, 2017 Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Id continue to use insteon since you've already invested a great deal into them. Where they are weak, I would recommend using zwave in its place. That is the route that I took. I use zwave sensors over insteon's and zwave outlets to provide the repeating that is needed. I personally love Insteon switches. The look and feel of them are much much better than I have seen from any zwave device to date. When it comes to sensors however, zwave has insteon beat by a long shot. Edited December 4, 2017 by lilyoyo1 1
giomania Posted December 6, 2017 Posted December 6, 2017 I'm currently evaluating a software solution (I fear a hub will be too limiting, not to mention that many of them are cloud-dependent). I'm looking at Home Assistant (https://home-assistant.io/) -- I've got it running on a Linux server right now, with the Aeon Labs USB z-wave stick, but if this works out it'll end up on a Raspberry Pi. I can't make heads nor tails, so to speak, of the z-wave Primary/Secondary thing -- perhaps the ISY doesn't play nice with this, but it just doesn't seem to do anything useful for me. So I moved a few devices off to the Aeon Labs stick, so that Home Assistant "owns" those; the ISY no longer sees them. (And I agree - the UDI team are fabulous! Of late, their responsiveness in terms of the new Google Home and the V3 Alexa skill are just awesome -- what other company can go from forum discussion to deployed fix in a week or less?!? But let's be honest - the Z-Wave support seems to be a very steep mountain for UDI to climb (based on the amount of time its taking). And another concern I have is that the two ISY Z-Wave dongles I have are already obsolete, and are completely proprietary to UDI -- we've been down that road with the PLM, and I'm feeling very uncomfortable right now.) I am not considering the ISY Z-Wave daughter card until they come out with the version that has Gen 5 (I think that is correct) support. Michel said it was awaiting certification, if memory serves. Mark Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
stusviews Posted December 6, 2017 Posted December 6, 2017 Hello all, Z-Wave Gen 5 is a hardware chip. Z-Wave Plus is a certification thing with icons and some features that only Gen 5 can provide but it's not a necessity. In short, we can get Z-Wave Plus certification even without having Gen 5 hardware. We are going to do both. With kind regards, Michel
G W Posted December 6, 2017 Posted December 6, 2017 I am not considering the ISY Z-Wave daughter card until they come out with the version that has Gen 5 (I think that is correct) support. Michel said it was awaiting certification, if memory serves. Mark Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It's called 'Next Gen' Z-Wave hardware platform, also know as 500 Series or 5th Generation Z-Wave.
ctviggen1 Posted December 9, 2017 Author Posted December 9, 2017 I've got a mixed system, and I'm getting very good results with both. I use Insteon mostly for lighting, outlets and appliance control, but I have a few Z-Wave devices scattered around as well - sensors, door locks, a fan control, a water shutoff valve, garage door controls, etc. All work as intended with the ISY, but I'm running on alpha firmware that has improved support for Z-Wave multi-channel devices. Ergonomically, I prefer Insteon wall switches and outlets. For stuff that needs to be secure, I use Z-Wave. Both Insteon and Z-Wave have been nearly 100% reliable in my installation, so I'm not in any hurry to choose. I'm very curious to see if the new management of SmartLabs revitalize the Insteon brand. Interesting. One of the things I want to use Z-wave for is ceiling fans. I found the Insteon version to be not great. Where do you get the alpha firmware? I looked but could not find it.
ctviggen1 Posted December 9, 2017 Author Posted December 9, 2017 Id continue to use insteon since you've already invested a great deal into them. Where they are weak, I would recommend using zwave in its place. That is the route that I took. I use zwave sensors over insteon's and zwave outlets to provide the repeating that is needed. I personally love Insteon switches. The look and feel of them are much much better than I have seen from any zwave device to date. When it comes to sensors however, zwave has insteon beat by a long shot. I do have a lot invested in Insteon and actually have another 8 or 10 switches waiting for me to get the time to install them. They work well, except every time the power goes out, they forget that they were set to light the LED status on low. They turn the LED status on high, and then I have to redo setting the LED status to low. Luckily, I only do this in the bedrooms.
Bumbershoot Posted December 9, 2017 Posted December 9, 2017 Interesting. One of the things I want to use Z-wave for is ceiling fans. I found the Insteon version to be not great. Where do you get the alpha firmware? I looked but could not find it. Here's the link to 5.0.10. Version 5.0.11 was just released and it seems to have broken a few things. Keep in mind that it's still ALPHA software, so if it breaks, you get to keep both halves...
stusviews Posted December 9, 2017 Posted December 9, 2017 Interesting. One of the things I want to use Z-wave for is ceiling fans. I found the Insteon version to be not great. Where do you get the alpha firmware? I looked but could not find it. Have you actually tried the FanLinc? There's no Z-Wave equivalent. The Z-Wave devices can control your light or your fan, but not both. Here's the Version 5+ Link.
Bumbershoot Posted December 10, 2017 Posted December 10, 2017 Have you actually tried the FanLinc? There's no Z-Wave equivalent. The Z-Wave devices can control your light or your fan, but not both. Here's the Version 5+ Link. This is correct. The fan I'm controlling with Z-Wave has no light. It works fine for just the fan.
asbril Posted December 10, 2017 Posted December 10, 2017 This is correct. The fan I'm controlling with Z-Wave has no light. It works fine for just the fan. Inovelli may be working on a switch that incorporates both fan and fan light. I have 4 fans at my (Miami) home and in each case I carefully carved out a hole in the wall to add a switch, and I separately control fan and fan light. I am very well aware of the many Insteon fans in this forum (and respect their choice) but personally I have gone ZWave all the way and do not look back. 1
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