Door Sensors and Scenes

[simplextech]

I had a program that turns on the deck lights when any of the doors open and then turn off the light after 10 minutes.  This was with Insteon door sensors and Z-Wave switches.  Today I replaced the switches with Insteon switches and the same program seems "slower" at about 1-2 seconds before the lights turn on?  Maybe there's a troubleshooting step I can take but I looked at the logs in level 3 and I don't see any retries or anything.

So I had the idea of a scene with the door sensors.  The On speed is instant which is great.  However as soon as the door is closed the lights are out.  I was toying around and looking for a way to change the off behavior but I'm not really sure if I can?

The goal is to use a scene to turn on the lights when the doors are opened but I don't want the doors closing to turn off the lights.  Can this be done with a scene?

[Techman]

 

Have the first program call the then statement of a second program which will turn on then off the lights. The second program will complete regardless of the state of the first program

program 1

IF

   control door sensor is on

THEN

   run program 2

ELSE

 

program 2

IF

THEN

    turn on lights

    wait 10 minutes

     turn off lights

ELSE

 

 

 

 

[MWareman]

With Motion sensors, you configure it to only send ‘On’ commands. Then, you put the motion sensor in the scene as a scene controller. That way - the ‘On’ is triggered immediately (no ISY delay).

On the ISY, you have a program that triggers from the ‘On’ - then ‘Then’ starts a wait (for however long you want the light to stay on) then sends an ‘Of’ to the light.

The advantage is that each time motion triggers it - the timer is reset.

If the door sensor does not support ‘On’ only mode, then you are stuck with the fully programmed approach (with the inherent delay that introduces).

[larryllix]

 
Have the first program call the then statement of a second program which will turn on then off the lights. The second program will complete regardless of the state of the first program
program 1
IF
   control door sensor is on
THEN
   run program 2
ELSE
 
program 2
IF
THEN
    turn on lights
    wait 10 minutes
     turn off lights
ELSE
 
 
 
 

If the first line is
If 'control door sensor is switched on'

Off is not a problem and will not be detected without a line that detects the Off signal. A second program is not required.


However if the first line is
If 'Status door sensor is on'

Off is a problem and a second program is needed as the off would cancel the 'Wait 10 minutes' line (if used all in one program)

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[simplextech]

Based upon other reading from sites and poking around the open/close there's no option for "On-Only" like the motion sensors.  So this leaves me with using a program.  

Any way to speed this up?  I can open the doors and count almost to 2 before the switch is turned on.

Edited February 13, 2019 by simplextech

[kclenden]

22 hours ago, simplextech said:

The goal is to use a scene to turn on the lights when the doors are opened but I don't want the doors closing to turn off the lights.  Can this be done with a scene?

If you mean can it be done by merely configuring a scene in a specific way then the answer is no.

MWareman points out how it can be done if the door sensor can be configured not to send OFF commands, but since you're familiar with that concept from motion sensors, I'm guessing you can't configure the door sensor to not send OFF commands.

Luckily, in v5, UD has given us a way to alter individual links within a scene.  Depending on how many door sensors and a how many switches you're talking about, you might find this to be a way to accomplish your goal.  The idea is that when the ISY detects an ON from one of the door sensors, it removes the switches from the scene that was used to turn the lights ON.  That way, when the door sensor sends an OFF, the switches are not affected.  Later, when the ISY turns off all of the lights, it adds the switches back to the scene.

The question comes down to timing.  Generally speaking, if the ISY sees the ON command from the door sensor, so have the switches and they've already switched ON so it's safe to remove them from the scene.  The next issue is how long it is before the door sensor sends an OFF and was that enough time for the ISY to communicate with all of the switches to remove them from the scene.  If those bits of timing don't seem to be a problem, you'd also have to consider what might happen if multiple door sensors send an ON at the same time, but I think that could easily be handled in programming.

With that all said, here is a program that would accomplish the above for one sensor and one switch.  I'm using my motion sensor in the program since I don't have a door sensor:

Timer - [ID 00A2][Parent 0042]

If
        'FY-Motion Sensor.1 Motion' is switched On
 
Then
        In 'FY-Motion Sensor.1 Motion' Set 'FY-Landing (M)' To ignore
        Wait  10 minutes 
        In 'FY-Motion Sensor.1 Motion' Set 'FY-Landing (M)' To On, 1 retry
        Set 'FY-Landing (M)' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

And screen shots for the two commands above that altered the scene "Foyer Landing Lights"

Edit:  You'd also want to have a program that runs on STARTUP that restores the switches to the scene, if needed, just in case the the power goes out between the ISY removing the switches from the scene and later adding them back to the scene.

Edit 2: My initial testing above was done with my motion sensor that is powered by USB (i.e. always awake).  I just tried it with my motion sensor that is powered by battery (i.e. usually asleep).  The attempt to restore the switch to the scene was only partially successful because apparently when the ISY removes a device from a scene, it must update the link tables on both the responding device and the controlling device.  So if your door sensors run off battery, the method detailed above probably won't work.

Edited February 13, 2019 by kclenden

[Techman]

The links for scenes are contained in the devices. You could remove the PLM from the equation and the scenes would still work.

If you want to add or remove a battery operated device from a scene you first have to the device into the linking mode so the link tables in all the associated devices can be updated.

[simplextech]

@kclenden thanks for this.  It was very much what I was looking for.  I do something similar with modifying the scene for a motion sensor.  Thanks also for testing against a battery device as that saved me another trip to the forum (even though I sit here a lot)

I was trying the scene modification methods and was seeing if I could just change something in the scene to modify the off node the open/close sensor creates in the ISY and no luck there either.  

It seems I'll have to continue with the use of a program and accept the delay.  In timing it's not horrible as it's just to turn on the lights when going out on the deck.  But when just stepping out to grab some wood for the fire it's nice for the lights to be on.

 

[lilyoyo1]

I don't think it's the device itself. For whatever reason mine runs great (zwave sensors/insteon switches) most times and then sometimes I'm left wondering if something is going on with the system

[Sub-Routine]

What I do in my garage (and laundry room):

The motion sensors are linked to the lights with an instant on rate.
So the lights blink off, the ISY turns them on again using 'Garage Motion On', and if there is no motion they fade out over 30 seconds. If there is motion, the process begins again.
'Garage Motion On' is the scene with the motion sensor as a controller. Instant On.
'Garage Motion Off' is an ISY scene that uses a 30 second ramp rate.

So if I am in the garage staring at a broken thing and the lights turn begin to fade, I raise an arm, utter some expletive, and the lights come back on.

 

Quote

Garage Motion Off - [ID 0189][Parent 00A1]

If
        Control 'Garage / Garage-Sensor' is switched Off
    And Control 'Garage / Garage-Sensor' is not switched On
 
Then
        Set Scene 'Garage / Garage Motion On' On
        Wait  1 minute
        Set Scene 'Garage / Garage Motion Off' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

In our Kitchen, the MS always goes through the ISY. But then there is almost always a light on in the kitchen.
And if a switch is pressed on, the overhead light never turns off, MS be damned. WAF multiplied by 10. (Well it eventually does, but only after an hour with no motion will it begin to fade).

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Sub-Routine

[Jimbo.Automates]

I know I am late to this discussion, but my open/close sensors have a jumper that is removed which puts them in 2-scene mode.  When in this mode the open node only get's the on event when the door is opened, and nothing when it's closed, this works great and does exactly what you are asking.  But, I guess that is not available with newer versions of these sensors?

[simplextech]

13 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

I know I am late to this discussion, but my open/close sensors have a jumper that is removed which puts them in 2-scene mode.  When in this mode the open node only get's the on event when the door is opened, and nothing when it's closed, this works great and does exactly what you are asking.  But, I guess that is not available with newer versions of these sensors?

I don't know.  Let me go open one and find out.

EDIT:  No jumpers

No Options either...

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by simplextech

[Jimbo.Automates]

18 hours ago, simplextech said:

I don't know.  Let me go open one and find out.

EDIT:  No jumpers

No Options either...

 

Oh that's a bummer.  I wonder if @Michel Kohanim or @Chris Jahn can see if there is an option available to allow the newer open/close sensors to work in 2-scene mode.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Jimbo,

No one really knows. Open/Close used to be called TriggerLinc and then, based on the firmware version, some of those supported individual on/off nodes. But, in no case do I remember that a jumper was in question. i.e. ISY created two nodes based on the firmware version of the same model number (TriggerLinc). And, then, that feature was removed when they moved to Open/Close. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Jimbo.Automates]

Michel, yes the jumper didn't change wether it had 2 nodes, only how those nodes behaved. Real bummer that that can't work in 2 scene mode anymore. This made open only get an on when the door opened and nothing when the door closed.

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[Adam Ant]

On 2/21/2019 at 3:32 PM, Jimbo said:

I know I am late to this discussion, but my open/close sensors have a jumper that is removed which puts them in 2-scene mode.  When in this mode the open node only get's the on event when the door is opened, and nothing when it's closed, this works great and does exactly what you are asking.  But, I guess that is not available with newer versions of these sensors?

I am even more late!   What open/close sensor are you using that has the jumper?  I am using insteon and don't see that.  I do have the ability in ISY to convert to two nodes and i do indeed end with one open and one close node but they both cycle on/off vs just on. 

- Update - 

The new second node, even though it it appears to work like normal (on/off) when added to a scene works perfectly.   Turns on the scene but does not turn it off.  That way my garage lights do not shut off when the door closes but should come on quickly when the door opens.  still testing.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Adam Getchell
Update

[Jimbo.Automates]

I am even more late!   What open/close sensor are you using that has the jumper?  I am using insteon and don't see that.  I do have the ability in ISY to convert to two nodes and i do indeed end with one open and one close node but they both cycle on/off vs just on. 
- Update - 
The new second node, even though it it appears to work like normal (on/off) when added to a scene works perfectly.   Turns on the scene but does not turn it off.  That way my garage lights do not shut off when the door closes but should come on quickly when the door opens.  still testing.

Mine are the same, just the older version. Glad to hear the new 2 node option works.

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[simplextech]

I had to test this and yay.... two node is working... miracles...

[simplextech]

I just went around to the deck doors and garage entry doors putting the door sensors into link mode to change them to two node and creating scenes for those lights... ohhh hopefully the bane of lights NOT coming on is over with.

[bfish]

Very interesting thread.. I thought it would answer my question, but sadly it didn't quite...

I have a simple program for a door sensor that turns on an outside light when the door is opened after dark, then waits 10 minutes and turns off the light  (for taking the dogs out at night).

I am new to variables in ISY (having recently watched a YouTube video, I'm now "qualified"   ).  So what I'd like to do is have the light stay on only UNTIL i open the door again to come back in.  I think i need a "State" variable for this, but I'm struggling with the exact logic and approach.

Any programmers out there have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[larryllix]

5 minutes ago, bfish said:

Very interesting thread.. I thought it would answer my question, but sadly it didn't quite...

I have a simple program for a door sensor that turns on an outside light when the door is opened after dark, then waits 10 minutes and turns off the light  (for taking the dogs out at night).

I am new to variables in ISY (having recently watched a YouTube video, I'm now "qualified"   ).  So what I'd like to do is have the light stay on only UNTIL i open the door again to come back in.  I think i need a "State" variable for this, but I'm struggling with the exact logic and approach.

Any programmers out there have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

I am a big variable advocate where they make things easier or more complex algorithms available but....

Try something like this.

If
     door open is switched on (not status)
     AND
    Light is Off (this is status)
Then
    turn light on
    WAIT x hour ( all else fails clause)
    turn light off (anyway)
Else
   turn light Off

Framing this with a time of day logic will complicate things and require at least two programs with interlocking enable/disables

Edited June 24, 2020 by larryllix

[Techman]

It's probably best to use two programs

  Program 1

If light is off and door is opened and time is xxx

     then turn light on

--------------------------------

Program 2

If light if on and door is opened

   then turn light off 

[bfish]

 

Thank you.  Way too easy!  

[TrojanHorse]

It's probably best to use two programs
  Program 1
If light is off and door is opened and time is xxx
     then turn light on
--------------------------------
Program 2
If light if on and door is opened
   then turn light off 

Typo? That would create an infinite loop during time x with the door open I think, at least if using status.

Program 2 should say “closed” not opened.


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[larryllix]

2 hours ago, TrojanHorse said:

Typo? That would create an infinite loop during time x with the door open I think, at least if using status.

Program 2 should say “closed” not opened.


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IMHO if the door sensing is using "control/switched On" it should avoid oscillation. The control/switched logic test always evaluates as False unless the testing is due to it's own condition change. Lots of Else sections will run but that should not affect the apparent operation.

Using status would likely cause oscillation (while the door is open) because you are changing the status of the device inside the same program that is triggering on it.