Wiring and Automation of whole home humidifier

[Methos000]

Hi, thanks for reading first of all.

I've got a pretty well setup system for my whole house, over 100 insteon devices total, but the one nut I haven't figured out how to crack is getting humidification control integrated in a smart way.

My hand is being forced by my Aprilaire controller's humidistat is no longer working, so it won't initiate humidification... so here I am trying to figure it out.  What is the best way to do this?  I'd like to eliminate the aprilaire controller altogether if possible. I have 3 zone HVAC, with insteon 2447's, so I already have indoor temp and humidity sensors on every floor, although the only one I'm really interested in is the top floor where bedrooms are.

I know I can use the thermostat to do blower activation on demand, and I know how to do the programming aspect within the ISY, but I don't exactly understand how to wire the former humidistat/controller in a way that the ISY can engage the solenoid.

What are your thoughts?  What have you done?  I've done some searches and seen some info in a couple other topics here but I haven't gotten the complete picture from it and didn't want to necro old threads.

Thanks!

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@Methos000,

Perhaps you can get a Z-Wave multi sensor which also includes humidity and then do everything yourself through ISY? 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Methos000]

Yeah the Insteon Thermostat actually has humidity built in, so I think I can trigger with those variables with ISY programming. 

I'm just not sure what hardware to trigger the 24v solenoid.  I've been digging more myself and am thinking maybe I do it directly by eliminating the original controller altogether and directly triggering the solenoid with an I/O Linc.  I just haven't tried cobbling together hardware in this style yet, but hypothetically I am starting to think it'd work though.

Thanks!

[Michel Kohanim]

@Methos000,

IOLinc sounds right!

With kind regards,
Michel

[larryllix]

I would likely use a OnOff plug-in module and a separate 'class 2' - 24Vac transformer or find a small plug-in 24Vac adapter wallwart. They do exist as I just found a surplus one for my water Iron Filter tank.

[Screw Loose Dan]

If all you need to do is turn on the humidifier, I would agree an On/Off plug-in module with a transformer is likely the best solution.  The IOLinc is powerline only, meanwhile the current on/off modules are all rf/powerline, so it should have more reliable communication.  The IOLinc would probably work fine and if you need the input, it's the way to go.

[TrojanHorse]

Does your controller measure outside temperatures? Mine does and it’s important so that you don’t pump too much humidity into your house when it’s really cold outside. I’d suggest replacing the Aprilaire controller and making sure it’s measuring outside temperature as well.


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[Methos000]

The on off does sound better, I don't need the sensor input on the IOLinc really.

The ISY has local weather data if I recall, I know i was using it for sunset data in the past, but I'd probably use that if it works.  If not I'll have to go back to the drawing board.

The Aprilaire controller never did work very well, and I don't see how a new one would do it any better - the humidity measurement is in the basement on the furnace stack, and it often would hover in the 30% range, but on the top floor where everyone was sleeping it would creep upwards of 50% according to the Insteon thermostats.  I live in Minnesota, so you can imagine all the condensation and ice build up that created constantly.  I am actually kind of glad this controller crapped out so that I can come up with a real solution.

[mwester]

Inappropriate humidity for the conditions can cause real property damage -- and for me, that meets the criteria for a purpose-built controller, as opposed to using any form of home automation as a controller.  Integrating HA is still a very useful thing -- but only to monitor and at most to "nudge" the real controller.  There's just too much at stake to risk it on the many things that can go wrong with any HA system (not the least of which is human error).

Find a way to run a wire to the basement, and put a real humidistat in place -- your outdoor sensor ideally should be on a north-facing exterior wall of the house, but the second floor vs ground-level makes no difference, so that can help.  If you can't get the external temp sensor, well, the weather up here is consistent enough over time frames that matter for a humidifier that a manually-adjustable control will suffice.  (I live up in the frozen tundra with you, and deal with a humidifier in the winter along with all the problems and challenges they bring.)

I agree that adjusting the humidity in the basement is not a useful exercise... so something needs to be fixed.  But I'd worry that replacing that with something that we tinker with and modify and change and upgrade constantly is going to be a potential source of damaging humidity problems.

[paulbates]

I'm doing it with the thermostat. 

It works best to read humidity in the living space. Then, to your comments, engage the humidifier when the humidity is low. I've found over 4 years of doing, that heat and humidity have lives of their own and running separate humidity cycles helps even humidity, and that has improved our health and not feeling uncomfortable and dry. Since the furnace usually offers 24volts to power the water valve, I'd probably use the iolinc, but either is fine.

Some other things:

• Plumb the humidifier to hot water, so when you're running a demand humidity cycle, the water is more ready to evaporate vs when hot air is moving through. 
• I have 2 furnaces / aprilaire humidifiers and wrote programs that track runtime in humidity mode, and then by detecting excessive runtime, send a notification that the pad is gunked with calcium (we have a limestone aquifer)
• I have programs that scale the humidity up and down relative to on property outside temp to prevent window frosting
• I also have programs vent the attic periodically when humidity has been active so that moisture does not build up there

Paul

 

[mmb]

4 hours ago, Methos000 said:

Hi, thanks for reading first of all.
.............
What are your thoughts?  What have you done?  I've done some searches and seen some info in a couple other topics here but I haven't gotten the complete picture from it and didn't want to necro old threads.

Thanks!

 

Hi, I'm just finishing up something similar as and our cheap humidistat never worked properly.

Highlights below:

- Note: electrical for the furnace blower also supplies power to the humidifier transformer

- Polyglot MQTT and a dht11 multi-sensor for inside temperature and humidity

• Only run humidifier only if inside humidity level is too low
• Polyglot updates an ISY multi-sensor

- Polyglot MQTT and Weatherunderground for outside current temperature, 1-day forecast low temperature

• Only run humidifier if outside temperature conditions are satisfactory to avoid window condensation which is a big problem in our area of Canada
• The 1-day low is used to allow time for the house to dry out
• Polyglot updates another ISY multi-sensor

- Wrote a very simple ISY Program to control an IOLinc (NO) to turn on the humidifier

• When inside humidity (<25%), and outside temperature (> +5C), and forecast temperature (> -10C) conditions are satisfied
• This program automates a routine I used to manually set the humidistat (basically On or Off)

- Bypassed the POS humidistat

The most challenging part of this setup was F/C handling in the ISY.

mike

[TrojanHorse]

The on off does sound better, I don't need the sensor input on the IOLinc really.
The ISY has local weather data if I recall, I know i was using it for sunset data in the past, but I'd probably use that if it works.  If not I'll have to go back to the drawing board.
The Aprilaire controller never did work very well, and I don't see how a new one would do it any better - the humidity measurement is in the basement on the furnace stack, and it often would hover in the 30% range, but on the top floor where everyone was sleeping it would creep upwards of 50% according to the Insteon thermostats.  I live in Minnesota, so you can imagine all the condensation and ice build up that created constantly.  I am actually kind of glad this controller crapped out so that I can come up with a real solution.

I’m in MN as well and agree with Mwester that this isn’t something you want a home brew solution to mess up your house. Are you sure the Aprilaire controller isn’t measuring the humidity of air in the return air duct? That’s how mine work.


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[Methos000]

On 3/1/2019 at 3:21 PM, TrojanHorse said:

 

I’m in MN as well and agree with Mwester that this isn’t something you want a home brew solution to mess up your house. Are you sure the Aprilaire controller isn’t measuring the humidity of air in the return air duct? That’s how mine work.


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Yeah, it does measure in the return air plenum.  The problem is my house is new construction, and the return for both of the top two floors is on the main floor, other than the small segment in  the master suite, and then the basement, which is extremely low due to radon mitigation.  So the majority of return air, even when the top floor zone is running, all gets pulled from the main floor or basement where humidity is lower, or nearly non existent. 

I agree with the sentiment of not wanting to mess up my house, but the aprilaire controller has done nothing but mess my house up.  Initially, by over humidifying the second floor (while set to the lowest relative setting), because it doesn't sample properly, and now, by not humidifying at all.  So literally anything is better than what it has done.

[paulbates]

I use a combination of raising or lowering humidity setpoint relative to outside temp. I also automate hvac fan cycling so if there’s a long time between heat cycles, air is moving in the house. I have two non automated humidity & temp sensors I’ve moved around the house to see if humidity is a problem low or high.

The only place it can collect for me is the attic, and there it’s not bad, just a little high. I kick on my attic fan at low speed  for a period every 1.5 hours humidification is active, and then a run out period that happens 2 hours after the last humidification cycle completes. 

Paul