Two Philips Hue Bridges on Polisy

[lilyoyo1]

40 minutes ago, notslow said:

I haven't bought a polisy yet. I would prefer not to if i will be limited on how bridges. I have the now and will likely be adding a fourth eventually now that I'm adding outdoor and landscaping lights. Maybe I can check with UD directly to see if they know.

Or does anyone know if pollyglot can control 3-4 bridges running on another device, pc or raspberry pi?

I am pretty invested in the hue ecosystem so if isy can't control it, I may have to look into other options. I really want to use isy due to no cloud dependency and reliability as well as the really nice insteon keypads.

UDI doesnt make the nodeserver for Hue so they probably couldnt answer that. The developer stated a couple of posts up that he only has 1 so he cant test for multiples. Since the nodeserver can handle 2, if there are problems with more, most likely it would be an api limitation and not a polyglot/isy/polisy issue. 

[notslow]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Im with you. Mine is 5400 sq feet with a single bridge

I have over 70 hue bulbs, 21 dimmer switches and 19 motion sensors currently installed and I'm not done. The bridges start to get flaky when they approach the limits. Though they are rated to handle 50 bulbs, they are only rated for 10 accessories, 13 or 14 accessories on a bridge is when I started having issues and could no longer add devices or scenes. At a count of 40 accessories, I'm already pushing the 3 bridges and I have 5 more motion sensors to install.

If I can get this polyglot node stuff figured out, I'll be getting rid of a bunch of the dimmer switches in favor of the insteon wired keypads. I'll still likely need to be on at least three bridges still due to number of bulbs. I still plan to add another 30 or 40 more pieces between the landscaping, patios and rest of inside the house.

 

[oberkc]

12 minutes ago, notslow said:

The bridges start to get flaky when they approach the limits. Though they are rated to handle 50 bulbs, they are only rated for 10 accessories, 13 or 14 accessories on a bridge is when I started having issues and could no longer add devices or scenes. At a count of 40 accessories, I'm already pushing the 3 bridges and I have 5 more motion sensors to install.

Thank you for responding.  You are right...you are SERIOUSLY invested in Hue.  I wonder if they might, someday, produce a hub "pro" without such limitations.

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, notslow said:

I have over 70 hue bulbs, 21 dimmer switches and 24 motion sensors currently installed and I'm not done. The bridges start to get flaky when they approach the limits. Though they are rated to handle 50 bulbs, they are only rated for 10 accessories, 13 or 14 accessories on a bridge is when I started having issues and could no longer add devicesor scenes. At a count of 45 accessories, I'm already pushing the 3 bridges.

If I can get this polyglot node stuff figured out, I'll be getting rid of a bunch of the dimmer switches in favor of the insteon wired keypads. I'll still likely need to be on at least three bridges still due to number of bulbs. I still plan to add another 30 or 40 more pieces between the landscaping, patios and rest of inside the house.

 

Most people here prefer replacing switches vs individual bulbs so most likely you will struggle to find someone that has gone done this path. Most automation people would avoid the use of so many bulbs (for various reasons) so you'll probably find yourself being the trailblazer for this regardless of controller. 

[oberkc]

My integration with hue is based upon the network resources, rather than polyglot or node servers.  I am certainly no expert on such things, but the network resource includes the IP address of the hue hub, along with the commands for the specific device at that IP address.  I strongly suspect that the ISY could not care less (at least via network resources) whether there are one or one-hundred hue hubs.  Each would simply be another network resource, with a specific IP address and specific commands for specific devices.

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, oberkc said:

My integration with hue is based upon the network resources, rather than polyglot or node servers.  I am certainly no expert on such things, but the network resource includes the IP address of the hue hub, along with the commands for the specific device at that IP address.  I strongly suspect that the ISY could not care less (at least via network resources) whether there are one or one-hundred hue hubs.  Each would simply be another network resource, with a specific IP address and specific commands for specific devices.

That's probably the best way to handle this. Glad I'm not the one that has to do it. 

[notslow]

13 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Thank you for responding.  You are right...you are SERIOUSLY invested in Hue.  I wonder if they might, someday, produce a hub "pro" without such limitations.

I emailed customer service with the suggestion that they could have multiple bridges network, possibly with a software update even. That way you could easily scale up by just adding another bridge. I doubt they will be making a "pro" bridge anytime soon (I'd buy it in a minute if they did) . Hopefully, the next gen hue bridge will handle more devices though. I'm also looking into diyhue emulator.

[notslow]

16 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Most people here prefer replacing switches vs individual bulbs so most likely you will struggle to find someone that has gone done this path. Most automation people would avoid the use of so many bulbs (for various reasons) so you'll probably find yourself being the trailblazer for this regardless of controller. 

Insteon light switches were my original plan, but I really liked the hue bulbs ability to change from warm white to cool white. The color stuff is neat too and great for limited ambiance effect, but the white variation would be hard to give up now.

Warm white scenes that go on automatically in the late evening are easy on the eyes and help you relax. Cool white is great for helping you wake up early morning and there is a nice medium white that is easy on the eyes while reading and working in the office.

The level of control the hue system gives you over scenes is amazing. You can have a color wash on living room wall at a dimmer brightness level, but then have the functional lights set for a higher brightness of white all from one scene. Have another scene with the color ambiance lighting off and the primary lighting dimmed or different color scenes for the mood lighting.  For the holidays my front porch lights can change to holiday colors or even color changing animated scenes.

Most of this is totally unnecessary, but still pretty cool.

[notslow]

31 minutes ago, oberkc said:

My integration with hue is based upon the network resources, rather than polyglot or node servers.  I am certainly no expert on such things, but the network resource includes the IP address of the hue hub, along with the commands for the specific device at that IP address.  I strongly suspect that the ISY could not care less (at least via network resources) whether there are one or one-hundred hue hubs.  Each would simply be another network resource, with a specific IP address and specific commands for specific devices.

I'm still not educated on the pros and cons of network resources vs node servers. I'll have to dig into this some more.

I'm hoping that I can get the insteon wired keypads to control hue scenes and also if at all possible, use the hue motion sensors to control other devices with ISY. For instance turn off the ceiling fan if no one is in the room for awhile or switch on the hot water circulator when someone is in the bathroom or kitchen.

[Bumbershoot]

2 minutes ago, notslow said:

I'm hoping that I can get the insteon wired keypads to control hue scenes

This is certainly possible with LiFX bulbs, as long as they are controlled by a nodeserver.  If you use a nodeserver, the bulbs are fully native to the ISY and can be used in ISY scenes (you can even include LiFX scenes in ISY scenes, if that makes sense).  This might be an argument for using a nodeserver over Network Resources.

[oberkc]

3 hours ago, notslow said:

I'm still not educated on the pros and cons of network resources vs node servers. I'll have to dig into this some more.

Neither am I, but that does not stop me from throwing thoughts around for others to correct when necessary.

Based upon my limited understanding of the node server approach, Hue bulbs (or any other device for which there is a node server) would appear to the ISY as another insteon device, able to be added to scenes, having status reported, triggering programs, being used as program actions, and all that.  Network resource appear to be limited only to being used as a program actions.  For a hue bulb to respond like a scene responder, one would have to create the network resource for each response anticipated, then create a program to initiate the desired response to each potential trigger.  I expect that this becomes impractical for much beyond some basic stuff. 

[notslow]

3 hours ago, oberkc said:

Neither am I, but that does not stop me from throwing thoughts around for others to correct when necessary.

Based upon my limited understanding of the node server approach, Hue bulbs (or any other device for which there is a node server) would appear to the ISY as another insteon device, able to be added to scenes, having status reported, triggering programs, being used as program actions, and all that.  Network resource appear to be limited only to being used as a program actions.  For a hue bulb to respond like a scene responder, one would have to create the network resource for each response anticipated, then create a program to initiate the desired response to each potential trigger.  I expect that this becomes impractical for much beyond some basic stuff. 

From your description of network resource, I don't think that would work for what I'm hoping to do. I think an ideal setup would be a pc or raspberry pi running a hue bridge emulator and a node server. This may be a little too advanced for me, okay a lot too advanced.

[Bumbershoot]

6 hours ago, notslow said:

From your description of network resource, I don't think that would work for what I'm hoping to do. I think an ideal setup would be a pc or raspberry pi running a hue bridge emulator and a node server. This may be a little too advanced for me, okay a lot too advanced.

Universal Devices to the rescue!  They're just now releasing a device called a Polisy, that runs on your network and hosts Polyglot.

It doesn't appear that it's any more difficult to set up than your ISY was (at least mine wasn't), and it should remove the hardest part of running Polyglot for most folks (acquiring and maintaining a machine running a *nix OS -- Linux, MacOS or now FreeBSD -- and managing it mostly from the command line).  Ultimately, your investment in a Polisy should be protected as UDI has stated that this is will be the platform for the next generation of ISY.

There are both Hue and Hue Emulator nodeservers available.  See the current list of nodeservers available here.

[lilyoyo1]

10 hours ago, oberkc said:

Neither am I, but that does not stop me from throwing thoughts around for others to correct when necessary.

Based upon my limited understanding of the node server approach, Hue bulbs (or any other device for which there is a node server) would appear to the ISY as another insteon device, able to be added to scenes, having status reported, triggering programs, being used as program actions, and all that.  Network resource appear to be limited only to being used as a program actions.  For a hue bulb to respond like a scene responder, one would have to create the network resource for each response anticipated, then create a program to initiate the desired response to each potential trigger.  I expect that this becomes impractical for much beyond some basic stuff. 

You're correct in the differences. I want to add that'd you use a nodeserver and turn on your bulbs with the hue app, you can trigger your insteon controller to turn on. You cannot do this with network resources. 

I use NRs over Nodeservers only because I set mine up prior to nodeservers being available.  Just to lazy to swap everything over. I do use Nodeservers for other places though. To be honest, neither is too hard to set up once you understand how both work and are aware of what you want to get out of things. 

Since I don't do individual control of bulbs, all of mine are part of their own scenes and that's what I control. I set up my off NR for each group (lamps, accent,  underbed,etc.) and then go about adding each scene I've created. All of this is easiest if done as part of a new install as you can set up each room at a time, get the information and add it to the isy. Mature installs are harder since you'll have to scroll through all of your lighting to get the proper scenes for each room etc. Still easy but a pain. The downside as mentioned is that if I use the app to turn on a scene, my keypads would not respond. That's fine with me as I only use the app for setting up but would be a problem for others who actively uses the app.

The same applies to nodeservers. Using individual bulbs as part of isy scenes will result in them turning on 1 at a time. If you're ok with this look then it's fine to use this method. Just know, you won't be able to control this created scene from the hue app

Your best bet is to create the scenes in the hue app prior and use the created hue scenes in the isy so the bulbs turn on together. This will allow you to use the same scenes via the app should you chose. Whether you choose the app, Isy, oflr your switch, everything will work as one

[notslow]

This is exactly how I would want to do it. Create scenes in the hue app and have insteon switch or keypad active a scene. This is how I use the hue dimmers now, but they are not as  attractive as a built in insteon keypad nor can they control a ceiling fan like the insteon.

I am going to have to dig into this emulator and find out how it works. If I can replace the actual hue Bridge without losing any major functionality with an emulated bridge that hopefully doesn't have the device count limit of the real bridge, this could be a big improvement over three or four hue bridges.

Biggest issue with multiple bridges is not having control of a device that's on bridge one from a device on bridge two.

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

You'll always need the hue bridge. That's what sends the signal to your hue bulbs from the isy

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, notslow said:

I am going to have to dig into this emulator and find out how it works. If I can replace the actual hue Bridge without losing any major functionality with an emulated bridge that hopefully doesn't have the device count limit of the real bridge, this could be a big improvement over three or four hue bridges.

1. Hue Emulator makes a system look like a Hue bridge to another system.  It does not replace a Hue bridge for lights.
2. Hue lights are Zigbee and use the ZLL ZCL by default not ZHA.  You can change a Hue lamp to ZHA and use it with deCONZ or other ZigBee bridge
3. Using another bridge you lose the Hue scenes and tight integration from Hue accessories and you lose the Hue app or any third party Hue based apps you may use
4. You can combine the use of the Hue bridge(s), Hue Nodeserver and Network Resources to have a nicely integrated setup.

[notslow]

12 hours ago, simplextech said:

1. Hue Emulator makes a system look like a Hue bridge to another system.  It does not replace a Hue bridge for lights.
2. Hue lights are Zigbee and use the ZLL ZCL by default not ZHA.  You can change a Hue lamp to ZHA and use it with deCONZ or other ZigBee bridge
3. Using another bridge you lose the Hue scenes and tight integration from Hue accessories and you lose the Hue app or any third party Hue based apps you may use
4. You can combine the use of the Hue bridge(s), Hue Nodeserver and Network Resources to have a nicely integrated setup.

So I would need to keep all three bridges to have all of my Hue devices? Not sure what good the emulator would do for me then. Looks like I may be stuck with multiple bridges until there is a bridge that handles more devices.

I definitely need to keep app integration and motion sensor integration. The Hue Essentials app is the only reason I get by with multiple bridges as it has multiple bridge support.

Sounds like Nodeserver will allow me to control scenes from Insteon controls so that's a major plus, will Hue nodeserver let me control devices connected to ISY with Hue motion sensors? That would be huge for me since I'm already using them and they seems to work very reliably.

[lilyoyo1]

42 minutes ago, notslow said:

So I would need to keep all three bridges to have all of my Hue devices? Not sure what good the emulator would do for me then. Looks like I may be stuck with multiple bridges until there is a bridge that handles more devices.

I definitely need to keep app integration and motion sensor integration. The Hue Essentials app is the only reason I get by with multiple bridges as it has multiple bridge support.

Sounds like Nodeserver will allow me to control scenes from Insteon controls so that's a major plus, will Hue nodeserver let me control devices connected to ISY with Hue motion sensors? That would be huge for me since I'm already using them and they seems to work very reliably.

Nothing about your current setup would change unless you stopped using your current switches. The emulator allows you to program your hue lights with the ISY and control your hue bulbs with other devices as part of 1 ecosystem. 

The developer at one point said he would not be developing for accessories so there's a good chance non-bulbs would not be part of the isy.

Unfortunately for you, if you decide to go with another controller, some of your investment will be lost. In this game you need to expect and be willing to lose money on stuff to advance things. It's the nature of the beast

[simplextech]

7 hours ago, notslow said:

So I would need to keep all three bridges to have all of my Hue devices? Not sure what good the emulator would do for me then. Looks like I may be stuck with multiple bridges until there is a bridge that handles more devices.

Correct.

7 hours ago, notslow said:

I definitely need to keep app integration and motion sensor integration. The Hue Essentials app is the only reason I get by with multiple bridges as it has multiple bridge support.

Correct.

7 hours ago, notslow said:

Sounds like Nodeserver will allow me to control scenes from Insteon controls so that's a major plus, will Hue nodeserver let me control devices connected to ISY with Hue motion sensors? That would be huge for me since I'm already using them and they seems to work very reliably.

The Hue NS does work with Lamps and Groups and those can be added to ISY Scenes to control from things like a KPL.  Currently the Hue NS does NOT present Hue Scenes for use.  For Hue Scenes you will have to use a combination of Network Resources and programs to integrate for use with a KPL or other Insteon device.

The Hue Motion sensors are very nice and work great with the Hue bridge.  The motion sensors are ZigBee ZHA and are supported by other hubs.  I have a beta NS for Hubitat integration.  The motion sensors are supported by Hubitat and the NS brings them into the ISY for use like any other motion sensor.  However the Hubitat hub has been stability challenged lately so you may not want to go that route currently.

Keeping the Hue motion sensors in the Hue Bridge provides the highest performance and tight integration with Hue scenes, lamps and apps and things just work really well.  If possible keep Hue devices on the Hue bridge and then work out integration from there.

[notslow]

On 12/29/2019 at 7:01 AM, simplextech said:

Correct.

Correct.

The Hue NS does work with Lamps and Groups and those can be added to ISY Scenes to control from things like a KPL.  Currently the Hue NS does NOT present Hue Scenes for use.  For Hue Scenes you will have to use a combination of Network Resources and programs to integrate for use with a KPL or other Insteon device.

The Hue Motion sensors are very nice and work great with the Hue bridge.  The motion sensors are ZigBee ZHA and are supported by other hubs.  I have a beta NS for Hubitat integration.  The motion sensors are supported by Hubitat and the NS brings them into the ISY for use like any other motion sensor.  However the Hubitat hub has been stability challenged lately so you may not want to go that route currently.

Keeping the Hue motion sensors in the Hue Bridge provides the highest performance and tight integration with Hue scenes, lamps and apps and things just work really well.  If possible keep Hue devices on the Hue bridge and then work out integration from there.

The Insteon switches are starting to sound like a no go or at least a major effort to control Hue scenes. It doesn't sound like there is any viable way to use the Hue motion sensors through the Hue bridge to control devices on ISY. Unless there is some trick to have ISY react to a hue bulb changing state. Already have Ecobee motion sensors, Hue motion sensors and alarm motion sensors. I'd really like to not have to add another type of motion sensor.

Without an easy way to control Hue through ISY, I may be stuck moving to a different HA system before I get too invested in the ISY (smart things, yuck). When I chose the ISY, there was nothing even comparable. My guess is that hasn't changed. Hopefully there will eventually be more support for Hue with the ISY or Node Server.

[simplextech]

35 minutes ago, notslow said:

Without an easy way to control Hue through ISY, I may be stuck moving to a different HA system before I get too invested in the ISY (smart things, yuck). When I chose the ISY, there was nothing even comparable. My guess is that hasn't changed. Hopefully there will eventually be more support for Hue with the ISY or Node Server.

It's very easy to control Hue through the ISY.  What you are trying to do is have Hue control the the ISY (Hue Motion sensors) and that's not going to work.

As I mentioned before you can add the Hue Motion sensors to another platform that supports Zigbee and now you've separated them from the Hue ecosystem and you won't be happy about those results.  A step above SmartThings would be Hubitat.  I warn you they are having stability issues currently but they will get worked out I'm sure, but it's a great ZigBee controller and can be integrated with the ISY.  However this is a hodge podge system with a dependency on another system because of wanting a motion sensor to work with the system and in doing so you will break/lose the functionality of the motion sensor that you have and want from them being in the Hue bridge.

Please... layout a clear picture of what you're trying to accomplish.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, notslow said:

The Insteon switches are starting to sound like a no go or at least a major effort to control Hue scenes. It doesn't sound like there is any viable way to use the Hue motion sensors through the Hue bridge to control devices on ISY. Unless there is some trick to have ISY react to a hue bulb changing state. Already have Ecobee motion sensors, Hue motion sensors and alarm motion sensors. I'd really like to not have to add another type of motion sensor.

Without an easy way to control Hue through ISY, I may be stuck moving to a different HA system before I get too invested in the ISY (smart things, yuck). When I chose the ISY, there was nothing even comparable. My guess is that hasn't changed. Hopefully there will eventually be more support for Hue with the ISY or Node Server.

Anything you decide at this point will be a major undertaking. You've invested into an ecosystem that was made for itself and want to combine it with something else outside of what they've designed for it. 

Homeseer would be a better fit for you. It'll cost you around 500+ bucks but it's doable. It would still take great effort.....there's just no way around it. 

As I stated before, regardless of what you choose, you will end up losing some things. Before investing any further in any system, I would suggest you think about what you are trying to accomplish. Putting thought into the design of your system and then implementing it will take you much further than jumping into stuff just to make it work. It'll save time, money, and headache long term. Trying to focus on saving what you already have is a recipe for disaster as well. You're better off using the best product for your system vs trying to make your system fit your product. 

[larryllix]

8 hours ago, notslow said:

The Insteon switches are starting to sound like a no go or at least a major effort to control Hue scenes. It doesn't sound like there is any viable way to use the Hue motion sensors through the Hue bridge to control devices on ISY. Unless there is some trick to have ISY react to a hue bulb changing state. Already have Ecobee motion sensors, Hue motion sensors and alarm motion sensors. I'd really like to not have to add another type of motion sensor.

Without an easy way to control Hue through ISY, I may be stuck moving to a different HA system before I get too invested in the ISY (smart things, yuck). When I chose the ISY, there was nothing even comparable. My guess is that hasn't changed. Hopefully there will eventually be more support for Hue with the ISY or Node Server.

Ecobee motion sensors take minutes to change state and may not do the job you want anyway.