The cost of things...

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

I'm following this and am very interested.  So I pose this question.

What about NodeServers?  Should those be a per version cost or a subscription?  Industry normal "drivers" are a per controller cost with fixes included but version upgrades are paid for.  If a NS has a cloud requirement/dependency then there's an ongoing cost and seems it should fall into a subscription model?

The current model so far is free for all everywhere which is not sustainable for anyone.

Nodeservers are in a grey area for me. I think there should be an upfront cost but I'm ok with paying a small fee yearly depending on cost. For example, the initial cost of your Sonos ns is 50 bucks. Due to API changes etc there may be a 10.00 fee each year to receive those updates. 

[oberkc]

58 minutes ago, simplextech said:

A NodeServer is that plugin, driver, add-on that you run on Polisy that gives you the ability to use Hue with the ISY or Harmony.  Those are pieces of software developed by independent developers

Yes, I had this level of understanding.  It just does not go much deeper.

[Bumbershoot]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Nodeservers are in a grey area for me. I think there should be an upfront cost but I'm ok with paying a small fee yearly depending on cost. For example, the initial cost of your Sonos ns is 50 bucks. Due to API changes etc there may be a 10.00 fee each year to receive those updates. 

I’m using quite a few that I would pay $50.00 for. Plus some update costs. 

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Absolutely correct.  This exact discussion is happening with UDI as well on HOW to make this a polished offering what is needed to get there.  Frankly this is A LONG WAY off and requires FAR MORE resources (people, time, money) than are actually available today.  First part is always research to even make a determination if this is viable or not.  Why put in a lot of time/money if it's not of interest, use, need to consumers?

Yes, and believe way back in the day with anything that was FREE it was a way to attract interest and talent. This is exactly what UDI has done and in 2~3 years the Node Server Store has what 70+ node servers which span from local vs cloud. Now, given all of them are free I have no expectation that the vendor / developer is going to offer more in the future. It's only by their shear generosity such as you @bpwwer and many others that we as a community have seen outstanding applications which allow us to connect to *Things*.

Now, this leads to the whole discussion a related thread of commercial vs free.

I've taken the time to review every word that has been expressed by the company and forum members. As a *Acid Test* in a limited fashion printed off the excerpts of the initial question and fully qualifying the overall goal, concept, and the legal issues.

Two of the people in this discussion listened intently (Lawyers either do or don't) these one do!

Having provided them the exact replies and feedback this is the short version:

Quote

You can not make a claim that something will infringe on X when precedent and case law clearly defines - It can't be. More specifically, the vehicle analogy is a good example because its something anyone can understand and relate to.

GM sells a car to Bob. Bob takes said vehicle and decides to run over Jane. GM in no way can be held liable for the actions of another. They simply provided you a mode of transport or tool and what a person does has no material impact or legal standing to the vendor.

Paid vs Free API: Now this is where things get interesting but will try to address some key concepts and add comments which relates to the vehicle concept where this pertains to a consumer, NOT the vendor (UDI). Car comes with Michelin tires from the dealer. You decide to swap them out for Bridgstones the maker / dealer can not tell you this will void any warranty or impacts your right to repair etc. In this case things are a little complicated but the basic premise is the same so please bare with me. It's been announced a piece of software in this case you call it a Weather Module is EOL which is going to be abandoned. There are countless case law and precedents which try to address different aspects as to what could be done and the outcome to said vendor (UDI) vs customer.

As stated up above its been called out the module is EOL. The company plans to remove their key from that service and you called it Airs? Anyways, you (Teken) have asked that the weather module be opened to allow your box in your home to use your private API Key. Keeping in mind you're no longer using this Airs company but using your personal hardware and private key to obtain new weather from another source. This will run internally and privately in your home and you're not making any monetary gain doing so.

Personal use.

The key concept is the weather module is EOL and the only thing they did was open the same to allow you to do what ever you want. In this case insert your private key which obtains weather information from Y company. Now having read some of the TOS of the weather companies you provided like DarkSky they indicate clearly that they ask the vendor or person to simply display a link this service is being provided by them as way of advertising and acknowledgment.

You obviously want to do this to ensure you are in the good graces, compliant, and good legal standing.

Infrastructure: Having read what Teken has stated (I had to laugh because he missed his calling in the current field and should have been a debater or lawyer) One of the contention from the vendor (UDI) is they will be placed in legal jeopardy if they allow people to grab data using their free and private API key while running the same through their infrastructure. What I found interesting was the fact Teken called out how does (UDI) resolve the legal issues that pertain to their ISY Portal / Poly Cloud?

In this scenario, sorry if I don't get all of the correct names or phrases (I'm a lawyer sub geek but not like Teken) the customers have the ability to install software from UDI (Polyglot) on to small computers like RPI or purchase some kind of blue? Box which includes the same software and in turn this box connects to UDI infrastructure which points to Node Servers (NS) which then allows a customer to install a weather application like Darky?? My understanding is these NS can be run within the Poly Cloud which is owned and operated by this (UDI) vendor.

If the contention is a person can't use their infrastructure at the same time a FREE private API key is used because doing so would be illegal. You already lost and are 100% in breach of that weather services TOS. It doesn't matter the person (customer) bought your blue box which is in their home and decided to use a private API key and pull free services because the companies contention is that's OK because they didn't do anything and can't control what the customer will do!

You simply can't have your cake and eat it to. The why is this which is (you see this all the time) is a court and jury can simply say you offered this free stuff because in a direct way and not in a round about way enriches you. Enrichment can be anything that gives you gain and in this case its the most solid case of enrichment which is money. People will see this software can allow them to connect to whatever but the key thing is its using their technology which gives awareness of a product or service and at some point that adoption will translate into a person to purchase hardware, software, services.

A simple drawing which is hard via typing: Polyglot (Free) -> Installed on RPI / Polyisy -> Free Private API Key (DarkSky) -> Connects to Paid ISY Portal / Poly Cloud. If the contention is it's OK use these free services while connecting to another 3rd party paid service (UDI Poly Cloud). You're in breach because it's no longer private its public and someone is making money in return never mind you're literally managing the access, control, and all of these blue / black boxes point to UDI.

How does that translate to this Weather Module? This gets a little confusing so I might have to modify my statement because this whole conversation seems very basic yet many are adding lots of noise which isn't germane or relevant to case law. 

The Ask / Conflict:

Weather Module was paid by (customer) and now is EOL -> Commercial API Keys paid by (UDI) are removed -> Customer inserts their private API Key -> Runs on UDI infrastructure like Poly Cloud -> This is in conflict of TOS??

You simply can't square the two away and say one is fine vs the other is not fine. The reason being is per the TOS for some not all weather services is they either don't want it to be used in a commercial way and if it is they want to be paid what ever. Again both Weather Module and these Node Servers run within the UDI infrastructure which by the very definition they are using is in breach when there are certainly leeway's and exceptions. 

As an aside one thing which isn't directly related to the question which I found extremely odd and upsetting is reading from this vendor that you the customer should go out and ask the Airs company as to what their contract states or means? Given this was stated more than two times I don't assume this was't serious which makes me take pause as to does this company just wild nilly sign things without reading and have legal representation? 

Noted by Teken the onus falls squarely on the vendor (UDI) to seek legal council to identify what their rights are and what remedies are available to them. In most cases I always ask the client to engage the other parties and be civil and ask for clarity and compromise. I also noted he offered a snippet of a much larger contract which calls out two other sub section which obviously offers more insight as to what the terms are. How they would expect you to come to any reasonable conclusion about their next steps when it's their problem is a head shaker.

For those who want the short version both the Weather Module if made open and the client goes on their marry way to install their private API keys to point / grab weather related data is fine so long as you follow through in EOL, No management of keys, let the customer do what ever they want because you have no clue what they are going to or not do with the open weather module.

I would add it would probably be fair to the vendor DarkSky to publish that link this is how the service is being provided though. 

Now I have 4 minutes for lunch Teken!

P.S.

I'm going to use one of the lines from Teken. He may have staid in the Holiday Inn - But, I am a lawyer! 

Ken M

        

Hi Ken,

I wasn't expecting a wall paper comment! LOL

Anyways the reply from Ken was more for context as I am not a lawyer but have seen enough contracts and involved in billion dollar contracts to know if there is a will there is a way. Which respects laws and everyone comes out happy and just wanted to present my concerns and offer possible solutions.

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

I’m using quite a few that I would pay $50.00 for. Plus some update costs. 

My hope is that high level (popular) nodeservers are bought out by udi and the developer is compensated by them to maintain it. The reason being, the more nodeservers one has, the more fees a person pays out. That's not a sustainable model. 

For instance, if I have 10 nodeservers that I pay 20 each year for, I just spent the cost of the isy itself. 

If udi owns it and pays the developer for maintenance, then they can charge a flat rate to compensate the developer

[Teken]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

My hope is that high level (popular) nodeservers are bought out by udi and the developer is compensated by them to maintain it. The reason being, the more nodeservers one has, the more fees a person pays out. That's not a sustainable model. 

For instance, if I have 10 nodeservers that I pay 20 each year for, I just spent the cost of the isy itself. 

If udi owns it and pays the developer for maintenance, then they can charge a flat rate to compensate the developer

I believe there are dozens of ways to do remuneration and I'm going to throw out a few (Spit Ball).

- Apple Concept: Node Server is in the store and lets assume its stable and working and offers a try before you buy. If it's junk uninstall it but if it has value and works give them $5.00 or what ever the defined entry fee is. This of course should be split to UDI / Developer to host their node server application. The problem is now we run into the free vs commercial and until someone can define where the red line is.

Well, its a holding pattern.

- Donate: I don't pretend to know how this works in the eyes of the law (depends where you reside I guess) but lets just say every developer has a donate button that goes directly to them. As many here have affirmed they would be happy to send a form of donation for all the hard work and fantastic software. I prefer this even if its a round about way of paying someone for their talent and hardware in helping the platform grow. 

[lilyoyo1]

19 minutes ago, Teken said:

Yes, and believe way back in the day with anything that was FREE it was a way to attract interest and talent. This is exactly what UDI has done and in 2~3 years the Node Server Store has what 70+ node servers which span from local vs cloud. Now, given all of them are free I have no expectation that the vendor / developer is going to offer more in the future. It's only by their shear generosity such as you @bpwwer and many others that we as a community have seen outstanding applications which allow us to connect to *Things*.

Now, this leads to the whole discussion a related thread of commercial vs free.

I've taken the time to review every word that has been expressed by the company and forum members. As a *Acid Test* in a limited fashion printed off the excerpts of the initial question and fully qualifying the overall goal, concept, and the legal issues.

Two of the people in this discussion listened intently (Lawyers either do or don't) these one do!

Having provided them the exact replies and feedback this is the short version:

Hi Ken,

I wasn't expecting a wall paper comment! LOL

Anyways the reply from Ken was more for context as I am not a lawyer but have seen enough contracts and involved in billion dollar contracts to know if there is a will there is a way. Which respects laws and everyone comes out happy and just wanted to present my concerns and offer possible solutions.

Hi Teken, the climate module is dead because it's a money pit and absolutely no benefit to the growth of our company. We are not bringing it back nor maintaining it. Why? Because we said so. Lol. 

***For members who may not know, this is me messing around pretending to be speaking for Michel. I do not represent the company nor speak for them. 

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Hi Teken, the climate module is dead because it's a money pit and absolutely no benefit to the growth of our company. We are not bringing it back nor maintaining it. Why? Because we said so. Lol. 

***For members who may not know, this is me messing around pretending to be speaking for Michel. I do not represent the company nor speak for them. 

No, Because Mom said so! 

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

No, Because Mom said so! 

Lol. My bad. Thanks for the correction

[Bumbershoot]

20 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

My hope is that high level (popular) nodeservers are bought out by udi and the developer is compensated by them to maintain it. The reason being, the more nodeservers one has, the more fees a person pays out. That's not a sustainable model. 

For instance, if I have 10 nodeservers that I pay 20 each year for, I just spent the cost of the isy itself. 

If udi owns it and pays the developer for maintenance, then they can charge a flat rate to compensate the developer

I see the costs of HA as a lifestyle enhancement.  I have spent more, by at least an order of magnitude, on devices, gadgets and doodads than I ever spent on my ISY.  No matter what I spend on nodeservers, I still likely won't spend what I spend annually on whiskey (another lifestyle enhancement).

Example: in the case of the WeatherFlow, WirelessTag and Rainmachine nodeservers, they're actually PAYING ME BACK in improved irrigation and reduced water usage.  The Mrs. spends many hundreds (more like thousands) of $$$ annually on plantings, mulch, tools, etc.  These nodeservers are helping me maintain that investment, while saving water, which is expensive and in somewhat short supply in the high desert of Oregon.  The Rainmachine does a very good job of managing irrigation on it's own, but it's not perfect.

I don't know what the sustainable model for payment is, but I know that I'm now relying on these things.  I don't want them to go away.

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

I see the costs of HA as a lifestyle enhancement.  I have spent more, by at least an order of magnitude, on devices, gadgets and doodads than I ever spent on my ISY.  No matter what I spend on nodeservers, I still likely won't spend what I spend annually on whiskey (another lifestyle enhancement).

Example: in the case of the WeatherFlow, WirelessTag and Rainmachine nodeservers, they're actually PAYING ME BACK in improved irrigation and reduced water usage.  The Mrs. spends many hundreds (more like thousands) of $$$ annually on plantings, mulch, tools, etc.  These nodeservers are helping me maintain that investment, while saving water, which is expensive and in somewhat short supply in the high desert of Oregon.  The Rainmachine does a very good job of managing irrigation on it's own, but it's not perfect.

I don't know what the sustainable model for payment is, but I know that I'm now relying on these things.  I don't want them to go away.

I definitely understand that feeling as I feel the same way. It's why when we moved into our house, I did our basic automation stuff before I unpacked anything. My wife handled the unpacking because she didn't want to live without it even for 1 night.  With that said, I don't just consider my situation. We can afford the fees if they were like that but not everyone is in the same financial situation. Even then, the more one pays in fees, the less inclined they are to do so. For example, a friend of mine cut the cord and then went back after a while. For him, by the time he added up for all the services he used, he was paying more than his cable bill. He didn't notice it early on because it was separate bills at different times vs 1 big bill

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for a lively discussion and very much of interest to me and everyone here at UD.

First is the question of subscription vs. one time. To be honest, I don't like any subscription based service. So, even for our development, if there's anything that's subscription based, I immediately move on unless I have absolutely no other choice. And, unfortunately, it seems that everything is moving toward subscription: development tools, slack, github, WordPress plugins, ... So, we are left with less and less choices. This, in combination with having to pay the bills for ISY Portal and Polyglot Cloud, have given me minimal appreciation for the subscription model.

On the other hand, there's no doubt that there are those hackers/geeks who do things without expecting any remuneration. For instance, 100s of 1000s of node.js modules. 10s of 1000s of VSCode plugins. 10s of 1000s of Python modules and so on and so forth.

So, all this said, at the highest levels, UD's approach is:
1. All node servers will be vetted against a compliance layer (which we are building as we speak)
2. The node server can be compiled and does not have to be in source form (that's the case right now)
3. Developers are vetted and have to sign up, pay annual fees (currently $26/year) to be able to publish to the store
4. The price of node server is ultimately up to the developer. If the developer does not want to charge for it, then it's up to him/her
5. Whether or not the developer wants to charge a one time fee or subscription is entirely up to him/her (see #7 and #8)
6. UD will get a cut for each node server sale
7. If the node server is free and it's run on locally (Polisy/Nodelink/Polyglot), then that's it
8. If the node server is run in PGC, then UD will have to figure out the impact on resources and, in concert with the developer, figure out whether or not it can be offered as free, one time, or subscription based

Of course, my preference is that everything is run locally but, as we know, there are exceptions.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

5 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hello everyone,

Thank you for a lively discussion and very much of interest to me and everyone here at UD.

First is the question of subscription vs. one time. To be honest, I don't like any subscription based service. So, even for our development, if there's anything that's subscription based, I immediately move on unless I have absolutely no other choice. And, unfortunately, it seems that everything is moving toward subscription: development tools, slack, github, WordPress plugins, ... So, we are left with less and less choices. This, in combination with having to pay the bills for ISY Portal and Polyglot Cloud, have given me minimal appreciation for the subscription model.

On the other hand, there's no doubt that there are those hackers/geeks who do things without expecting any remuneration. For instance, 100s of 1000s of node.js modules. 10s of 1000s of VSCode plugins. 10s of 1000s of Python modules and so on and so forth.

So, all this said, at the highest levels, UD's approach is:
1. All node servers will be vetted against a compliance layer (which we are building as we speak)
2. The node server can be compiled and does not have to be in source form (that's the case right now)
3. Developers are vetted and have to sign up, pay annual fees (currently $26/year) to be able to publish to the store
4. The price of node server is ultimately up to the developer. If the developer does not want to charge for it, then it's up to him/her
5. Whether or not the developer wants to charge a one time fee or subscription is entirely up to him/her (see #7 and #8)
6. UD will get a cut for each node server sale
7. If the node server is free and it's run on locally (Polisy/Nodelink/Polyglot), then that's it
8. If the node server is run in PGC, then UD will have to figure out the impact on resources and, in concert with the developer, figure out whether or not it can be offered as free, one time, or subscription based

Of course, my preference is that everything is run locally but, as we know, there are exceptions.

With kind regards,
Michel

Hi Michel,

Has anyone tried to address if and when something begins to be paid vs free? Meaning today X.0 node server is free and would gather stays exactly where it is and see no further development. But the next generation of the same X.1 node server now has a price however its been defined by the two parties. Also on a related matter how does the company intend to address where a developer says I want this gone from the store?

I have seen this same story unfold countless times where there is some kind of hardware / software failure on the target machine. The next step obviously is for the customer to reinstall all of the applications which resides in the damaged, broken, reimaged, machine. So now the customer goes back to the store and that node server is gone?? Will a backup and restore bring back these applications to their previous state??

Because prior to the hardware / software failure even if the node was removed it still resided locally on the machine. 

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

I am afraid responding to you lest you pull me into yet another 2.5 hours of legal and hypothetical discussions . Short answer, no. Long answer: need to get back to work!

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Teken,

I am afraid responding to you lest you pull me into yet another 2.5 hours of legal and hypothetical discussions . Short answer, no. Long answer: need to get back to work!

With kind regards,
Michel

Anything that makes a person think is always worthy in self development. Can't promise what I ask isn't going to get you riled up but do know it comes from then heart! 

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

I know it and I very much appreciate it.

With kind regards,

Michel