Insteon vs WIFi Thermostats

[midrar]

I’ve been an Insteon and ISY user for 13 years so I’m no stranger to the technology. What I am a stranger to is polyglot as I haven’t had the need to go in that direction yet. Up until the present, I’ve used Insteon thermostats. They are very basic and if we seen a surge in power, it would definitely fry the unit. While it was a no frills unit, it integrates very well with the ISY and using geo fencing or motion from elk for example, it could do just about anything any other stat could do. 
 

My question is we are building a new home. While the Insteon stat is functional, it’s not as pretty as the WiFi versions. My question is how well do these new WiFi versions integrate with the ISY through polyglot? Is there a noticeable lag? 
 

Any thoughts?

[lilyoyo1]

Here's a post with others thoughts on the subject

 

[Goose66]

I have had Insteon thermostats for may years now. But I just installed a Venstar ColorTouch 7900 in my basement and wrote a Polyglot Nodeserver for it. One of the primary reasons I was excited to try something different is I was having Insteon problems (another dying PLM, as it turns out) and communication with the Insteon thermostats was one of the first to go.

I really like the Venstar ColorTouch 7900 and the mobile app (Skyport) that works with it. The Wi-fi connection seems very reliable. There's also native Alexa support without going through the ISY (although I haven't played with it). The Polyglot nodeserver also let's me control all the same aspects of the Venstar thermostat as I was on my Insteon thermostats, primarily changing setpoints for vacation mode.

But the nodeserver has to poll the Venstar (every 10 seconds or so) and doesn't get the instantaneous updates on state and temps from the thermostat like the Insteon thermostat does. Also, I don't believe the Venstar thermostats (or any nodeserver-supported thermostats) are supported with a thermostat-friendly interface in Mobilinc or Agave.

[Bumbershoot]

2 hours ago, midrar said:

My question is how well do these new WiFi versions integrate with the ISY through polyglot?

Another plus regarding the Venstar ColorTouch thermostats is that they're the only WiFi thermostats I know of that use an entirely local API.  No cloud connection is necessary or needed by the nodeserver (but it's available if you want to use the mobile app/website).  There are several other good WiFi thermostats, such as Ecobee, but they need the cloud.  Avoid a Nest, as they no longer connect with your ISY, even though there's still a nodeserver available -- the interface was deprecated by Google.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, Goose66 said:

I have had Insteon thermostats for may years now. But I just installed a Venstar ColorTouch 7900 in my basement and wrote a Polyglot Nodeserver for it. One of the primary reasons I was excited to try something different is I was having Insteon problems (another dying PLM, as it turns out) and communication with the Insteon thermostats was one of the first to go.

I really like the Venstar ColorTouch 7900 and the mobile app (Skyport) that works with it. The Wi-fi connection seems very reliable. There's also native Alexa support without going through the ISY (although I haven't played with it). The Polyglot nodeserver also let's me control all the same aspects of the Venstar thermostat as I was on my Insteon thermostats, primarily changing setpoints for vacation mode.

But the nodeserver has to poll the Venstar (every 10 seconds or so) and doesn't get the instantaneous updates on state and temps from the thermostat like the Insteon thermostat does. Also, I don't believe the Venstar thermostats (or any nodeserver-supported thermostats) are supported with a thermostat-friendly interface in Mobilinc or Agave.

10 seconds is probably a waste of bandwidth. Ecobee can only be polled every 3 minutes (180 seconds) or ecobee will cut you off. While I think 3 minutes is a little slow, I don't see faster than about every 30 tp 60 seconds, as necessary or useful. Thermostats are not that real time and temperatures and settings do not change that often anyway, to congest up any comm channel. With MSes and other devices that may be important. Even the 3 minutes update can live with some minor workarounds. I have a few to check updates are processed 100% and they always work, eventually.

[upstatemike]

On 4/3/2020 at 7:16 PM, larryllix said:

10 seconds is probably a waste of bandwidth. Ecobee can only be polled every 3 minutes (180 seconds) or ecobee will cut you off. While I think 3 minutes is a little slow, I don't see faster than about every 30 tp 60 seconds, as necessary or useful. Thermostats are not that real time and temperatures and settings do not change that often anyway, to congest up any comm channel. With MSes and other devices that may be important. Even the 3 minutes update can live with some minor workarounds. I have a few to check updates are processed 100% and they always work, eventually.

I disagree. I use voice responses to confirm manual changes to my thermostats. Any response latency at all means the person making the change has already left the area by the time the confirmation is announced. I would say the maximum acceptable delay for a thermostat response is closer to 2 or 3 seconds but I prefer much less.

[lilyoyo1]

42 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I disagree. I use voice responses to confirm manual changes to my thermostats. Any response latency at all means the person making the change has already left the area by the time the confirmation is announced. I would say the maximum acceptable delay for a thermostat response is closer to 2 or 3 seconds but I prefer much less.

I'm confused. Are you saying that you'll manually change a thermostat then ask your voice assistants to confirm a change you just made at your thermostat that was right in front of you?

[simplextech]

43 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I disagree. I use voice responses to confirm manual changes to my thermostats. Any response latency at all means the person making the change has already left the area by the time the confirmation is announced. I would say the maximum acceptable delay for a thermostat response is closer to 2 or 3 seconds but I prefer much less.

I've seen you mention this in a lot of places and it always makes me do a double take.

Why do you do this?  And more importantly why are people touching your thermostat's? 

Also, why not program them so people can't change them.  If they get manually changed they get reset back to whatever you have programmed.  This ends all problems right?

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm confused. Are you saying that you'll manually change a thermostat then ask your voice assistants to confirm a change you just made at your thermostat that was right in front of you?

No.  He has it setup so that if the set point is changed then it announces the new set point.  So if someone changes the thermostat he wants to know and wants to know right now!

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I've seen you mention this in a lot of places and it always makes me do a double take.

Why do you do this?  And more importantly why are people touching your thermostat's? 

Also, why not program them so people can't change them.  If they get manually changed they get reset back to whatever you have programmed.  This ends all problems right?

That's what I do with mine. Less work on my end. 

[simplextech]

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's what I do with mine. Less work on my end. 

My StelPro's have a "lock" feature that prevents manual changes.  The NuHeat is programmed so if it's changed within a matter of seconds it's changed back.  No thought, no worry and no noise.

However if someone was messing with my T-Stat I think I would enjoy their noises of frustration trying to screw with my stuff!

 

 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I disagree. I use voice responses to confirm manual changes to my thermostats. Any response latency at all means the person making the change has already left the area by the time the confirmation is announced. I would say the maximum acceptable delay for a thermostat response is closer to 2 or 3 seconds but I prefer much less.

If you use voice commands to change your stat setpoints via ISY then ISY already has it's own confirmation immediately. The three minute max update time is for changes done on the stat.

As others point out, use your smart stat's programming instead of turning the dial up and down manually and use a password on the setpoints. I only change climate types on never play with setpoints from ISY. It's safer to select from preselects.

If a change in setting  is detected just cancel it via ISY. Then a few minutes of delay should not be paramount. The ecobee NS indicates a change so many ways that can be cancelled without even knowing a setpoint.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

My StelPro's have a "lock" feature that prevents manual changes.  The NuHeat is programmed so if it's changed within a matter of seconds it's changed back.  No thought, no worry and no noise.

However if someone was messing with my T-Stat I think I would enjoy their noises of frustration trying to screw with my stuff!

 

 

With the ecobee NS you can just watch "Hold" or a few other parameters. The "Schedule Mode" will change from "running" to "hold" if somebody changes a setpoint. Hold will cancel upon user programmed 2 hours, 4 hours, next climate type change, or stay permanently.

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm confused. Are you saying that you'll manually change a thermostat then ask your voice assistants to confirm a change you just made at your thermostat that was right in front of you?

Yes I want a voice confirmation announced, but I don't ask for it, it just happens immediately when there is a change. Usually I am not the one changing it but I hear what is going on and can monitor behavior. If you live with old people you know that small numbers on a display are sometimes not read correctly and the voice prompt provides a reality check for what they think they just did. Also if you live with old people you know it is not practical to simply have a program manage the setpoint and expect nobody will need to change it.

Also I like voice interaction. Most of my downstairs rooms greet you when you enter them. So of course I want the thermostats to talk.

Edited April 21, 2020 by upstatemike

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, simplextech said:

I've seen you mention this in a lot of places and it always makes me do a double take.

Why do you do this?  And more importantly why are people touching your thermostat's? 

Also, why not program them so people can't change them.  If they get manually changed they get reset back to whatever you have programmed.  This ends all problems right?

To me an automated home is like an aircraft with "fly by wire" controls and instrumentation. It is a ratio of 90% informing you of what is going on and 10% actually controlling anything. Even when you are cruising on autopilot you want to know what all systems are doing and you want to know immediately if they do something unexpected. If you do have to react and take manual control you want the response to be instantaneous just like you have a physical connection to the thing you are controlling. 

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Yes I want a voice confirmation announced, but I don't ask for it, it just happens immediately when there is a change. Usually I am not the one changing it but I hear what is going on and can monitor behavior. If you live with old people you know that small numbers on a display are sometimes not read correctly and the voice prompt provides a reality check for what they think they just did. Also if you live with old people you know it is not practical to simply have a program manage the setpoint and expect nobody will need to change it.

Also I like voice interaction. Most of my downstairs rooms greet you when you enter them. So of course I want the thermostats to talk.

I can understand that. Mine is setup for a temp range. Once outside of that, it'll put it back into range vs a single set temp

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, upstatemike said:

To me an automated home is like an aircraft with "fly by wire" controls and instrumentation. It is a ratio of 90% informing you of what is going on and 10% actually controlling anything. Even when you are cruising on autopilot you want to know what all systems are doing and you want to know immediately if they do something unexpected. If you do have to react and take manual control you want the response to be instantaneous just like you have a physical connection to the thing you are controlling. 

To each their own. I'm the opposite in that I want it to do what it does without any input. For me, its 99% automation and 1% notification. I didn't spend all this time and money simply to trade manual control to hear stuff going on constantly.

I get how you feel about it. Automation for me is like work. I believe in hiring the right people for the job, get out their way and let them do it. They only come to me when necessary instead of reporting every move.

Edited April 21, 2020 by lilyoyo1

[dbwarner5]

Am using 2 Honeywell z-wave thermostats. Integrates well with isy. havent had any problems with them for 4 years now. No latency as everything is local. All programming is done in isy vs at the thermostats. Can also control easily with Alexa. Also relatively easy to read and use.

Have an ecobee at a second home. Also z-wave, to a Samsung smartphone hub.. using polyisy node server. Also works really well. A bit easier to walk up and adjust / read. 

[upstatemike]

16 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

To each their own. I'm the opposite in that I want it to do what it does without any input. For me, its 99% automation and 1% notification. I didn't spend all this time and money simply to trade manual control to hear stuff going on constantly.

I get how you feel about it. Automation for me is like work. I believe in hiring the right people for the job, get out their way and let them do it. They only come to me when necessary instead of reporting every move.

Unfortunately Home Automation systems are not yet as smart as subject matter experts at work so you can't just give them a mission and let them figure out the best way to accomplish it. It would be great if my Home Automation system could distinguish between an old person who is cold and could actually go into hypothermia in a room you or I might think is too warm vs a child or spouse who decides to kick up the heat because they just felt a draft.  If I am informed I can mitigate those different situations. Alternatively I could try to incorporate sensors and programming to address every possible scenario but that is where it gets to be way too much work for me.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Unfortunately Home Automation systems are not yet as smart as subject matter experts at work so you can't just give them a mission and let them figure out the best way to accomplish it. It would be great if my Home Automation system could distinguish between an old person who is cold and could actually go into hypothermia in a room you or I might think is too warm vs a child or spouse who decides to kick up the heat because they just felt a draft.  If I am informed I can mitigate those different situations. Alternatively I could try to incorporate sensors and programming to address every possible scenario but that is where it gets to be way too much work for me.

You may not be able to give an automation system a task like a person but you can program them to do what you want them to do. No different than airplane systems being programmed to do certain tasks. 

That's what I did. I kept track of our habits and programmed based on that. Because lifestyles evolve, anything we do manually, I look for ways to automate that task so that we don't have to. 

To me, it's less work to program something and not worry about it afterwards, rather than constantly react to stuff that could've happened automatically. Programming is one and done. Notifications and potential responses is often.