Dead 2477D switch?

[mclowejr]

Hi everyone,

I'm a relative newbie at Insteon functioning but have several devices set up and controlled (mostly switches). I have an Insteon 2477D switch controlling my wall sconces. The switch is outside in a weather proof control box that never gets opened (I use the app to control it). I noticed my lights were not responding so I went to the physical switch. The dimming light panel on the switch shows the lights should be on but the lights are off. Clicking the switch on or off does move the dimming indicator on or off but the hub is not recognizing the status, nor is it controlling the switch when commanded. The lights stay off no matter the command from the app or directly pushing the switch button. I am using an ISY-944i hub. All my other devices are functioning normally.

Does this sound like my switch has died? If it has, is there a better outdoor solution? The only outdoor switch I am finding is a plug in version.

Thanks for the advice.

Regards.

[apostolakisl]

Did you try a factory reset?  Factory reset first, then try local control.  If that works, restore from ISY.  However, my experience is that if the switch doesn't work when controlled manually at the switch, it is dead.  If after a factory reset and restore it still doesn't work, you might try another factory reset and bench test it.  Could be an issue with your light fixtures or splices, but I doubt it.  

And no, the only outdoor rated Insteon switch is the plug-in dongle thing.  I have had Insteon switches outdoors and protected and not had them die, but certainly the wide temp swings and humidity issues outside are tough on electronics.  I do not believe I have ever had a 2477D fail though.  Lots of the older 2476D's failed, but never a 2477, and I have lots of them.

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, mclowejr said:

Hi everyone,

I'm a relative newbie at Insteon functioning but have several devices set up and controlled (mostly switches). I have an Insteon 2477D switch controlling my wall sconces. The switch is outside in a weather proof control box that never gets opened (I use the app to control it). I noticed my lights were not responding so I went to the physical switch. The dimming light panel on the switch shows the lights should be on but the lights are off. Clicking the switch on or off does move the dimming indicator on or off but the hub is not recognizing the status, nor is it controlling the switch when commanded. The lights stay off no matter the command from the app or directly pushing the switch button. I am using an ISY-944i hub. All my other devices are functioning normally.

Does this sound like my switch has died? If it has, is there a better outdoor solution? The only outdoor switch I am finding is a plug in version.

Thanks for the advice.

Regards.

It's possible the trial inside burnt out which is why the lights pipe still works but the switch itself doesn't

[apostolakisl]

55 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It's possible the trial inside burnt out which is why the lights pipe still works but the switch itself doesn't

"triac"  spell check I'm sure.

Of course that doesn't explain it not responding to Insteon commands.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

"triac"  spell check I'm sure.

Of course that doesn't explain it not responding to Insteon commands.

I'm speaking on the physical pressing of the button. That's normally indicative of the triac going out. 

[Teken]

Hi everyone,

I'm a relative newbie at Insteon functioning but have several devices set up and controlled (mostly switches). I have an Insteon 2477D switch controlling my wall sconces. The switch is outside in a weather proof control box that never gets opened (I use the app to control it). I noticed my lights were not responding so I went to the physical switch. The dimming light panel on the switch shows the lights should be on but the lights are off. Clicking the switch on or off does move the dimming indicator on or off but the hub is not recognizing the status, nor is it controlling the switch when commanded. The lights stay off no matter the command from the app or directly pushing the switch button. I am using an ISY-944i hub. All my other devices are functioning normally.

Does this sound like my switch has died? If it has, is there a better outdoor solution? The only outdoor switch I am finding is a plug in version.

Thanks for the advice.

Regards.

Let’s keep this simple remove the bulb and replace it with a known working one.

What happens?


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[mclowejr]

I did test the bulbs controlled by the light and they work in other outlets.  The switch currently has the lights on regardless of what the on/off status is.  After a factory reset (the switch does beep, and runs the light status indicator up to full on after), the switch continues to fail to respond to hub commands and manually switching the switch off and on moves the light indicator but does not turn the lights off.  Sounds like a dead switch?

 

For background, I'm in Arizona so the temps outside get quite warm but this switch is in a shaded area (still gets to 90's though).  Previously I had these wall lights controlled by the Insteon bulbs without a direct switch but the bulbs clearly do not like our weather and would die after a couple years, much too expensive to keep replacing them.  So, I installed  a switch to control the lights and put standard LED bulbs in. This switch lasted about 2 years, the same as one of the Insteon bulbs was lasting. 

I appreciate the help.  I will update after trying a factory reset.

Best.

Edited May 3, 2020 by mclowejr
Updated after factory reset.

[Teken]

I did test the bulbs controlled by the light and they work in other outlets.  The switch currently has the lights on regardless of what the on/off status is.  After a factory reset (the switch does beep, and runs the light status indicator up to full on after), the switch continues to fail to respond to hub commands and manually switching the switch off and on moves the light indicator but does not turn the lights off.  Sounds like a dead switch?

 

For background, I'm in Arizona so the temps outside get quite warm but this switch is in a shaded area (still gets to 90's though).  Previously I had these wall lights controlled by the Insteon bulbs without a direct switch but the bulbs clearly do not like our weather and would die after a couple years, much too expensive to keep replacing them.  So, I installed  a switch to control the lights and put standard LED bulbs in. This switch lasted about 2 years, the same as one of the Insteon bulbs was lasting. 

I appreciate the help.  I will update after trying a factory reset.

Best.

 

I would suspect you’re correct that heat has killed the switch. My dear friend BBB who also resides in Arizona had shown me how crazy hot it gets there.

 

I would check when you purchased the switch to see if it’s still within the 2 year warranty period if so great. If not, for long term Insteon use I would install either a micro switch, ILL, or switch at the service panel.

 

You would simply leave a dumb switch in place in the on position. While the now extra Insteon switch by the service panel (assuming) it’s inside and in a controlled environment will live out its days cooler and longer.

 

Just my $0.00000001 for long term use and savings.

 

 

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[apostolakisl]

7 hours ago, mclowejr said:

I did test the bulbs controlled by the light and they work in other outlets.  The switch currently has the lights on regardless of what the on/off status is.  After a factory reset (the switch does beep, and runs the light status indicator up to full on after), the switch continues to fail to respond to hub commands and manually switching the switch off and on moves the light indicator but does not turn the lights off.  Sounds like a dead switch?

 

For background, I'm in Arizona so the temps outside get quite warm but this switch is in a shaded area (still gets to 90's though).  Previously I had these wall lights controlled by the Insteon bulbs without a direct switch but the bulbs clearly do not like our weather and would die after a couple years, much too expensive to keep replacing them.  So, I installed  a switch to control the lights and put standard LED bulbs in. This switch lasted about 2 years, the same as one of the Insteon bulbs was lasting. 

I appreciate the help.  I will update after trying a factory reset.

Best.

I'm sure the heat hasn't helped the switch.  But I live in Texas and we have 2 plus months of 100 plus degree heat.  I have several Insteon switches in an un-conditioned out-building which have survived many years now.  I even had a small workbench fire that melted the paddle on one of them.  Now having said this, I'm sure I'll have them die tomorrow.  But my point is that the heat isn't necessarily a death sentence.

[mclowejr]

Thank you for the advice.  Because of the location of my wall light set up, my switch box is actually right below the outdoor circuit breaker box.  To put in a practically reachable switch I would have had to run about a 100 foot wire.  Insteon/home automation is a great solution if I can find a way to keep my switches from breaking.  I will also look into a different style of housing that may give more ventilation for my switch or see if I can install some different shading.  Surfaces (with my switch box located against the wall of the house) can reach 160 degrees or higher during our summers. 

I think I'll try to use a different type of switch, as Tekkon is suggesting.  I am wondering if the dimmer function may be susceptible.  The bulbs are also dimmer style and have gone out on me quickly.  One other question in that regard, would a microswitch behind a standard switch or possibly an Inline link be a better first choice?  I never use the manual function of the switch.  I may also be able to move the junction switch box a bit out from the wall to give 360 degrees of airflow around it.  

I appreciate all your help.  

[Teken]

Thank you for the advice.  Because of the location of my wall light set up, my switch box is actually right below the outdoor circuit breaker box.  To put in a practically reachable switch I would have had to run about a 100 foot wire.  Insteon/home automation is a great solution if I can find a way to keep my switches from breaking.  I will also look into a different style of housing that may give more ventilation for my switch or see if I can install some different shading.  Surfaces (with my switch box located against the wall of the house) can reach 160 degrees or higher during our summers. 
I think I'll try to use a different type of switch, as Tekkon is suggesting.  I am wondering if the dimmer function may be susceptible.  The bulbs are also dimmer style and have gone out on me quickly.  One other question in that regard, would a microswitch behind a standard switch or possibly an Inline link be a better first choice?  I never use the manual function of the switch.  I may also be able to move the junction switch box a bit out from the wall to give 360 degrees of airflow around it.  
I appreciate all your help.  

Given the environment in Arizona everything installed outside is suspect-able to heat.

Electronics don’t like heat and more specifically capacitors not properly rated will dry out and expand. Smartlabs continues to use some of the cheapest capacitors known to man in almost every device they make.

I can’t say you’ll have better luck using the micro module. But, given how small it is it can be placed anywhere on the same power line. I don’t know if your main breaker is inside / outside. But ideally you would install such a switch inside by the breaker using any of the Insteon solutions.

Some use the DIN modules to home run many light fixtures for that clean look to a central location like the basement / main panel.

If the main breaker is perhaps in the garage that might help? Than again an uninsulated garage can be just as hot if not hotter inside during the summer!

As an aside there was one install I did where the heat was also an issue. Like you he was replacing switches every couple of years. He finally took my suggestion and purchased a few extra during the promo events and replaced all of the capacitors with low ESR, High Temp, and Extended Runtime.

The switches have been in place for more than five years in the garage.




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[apostolakisl]

Are they mounted in a metal box?  A metal box that is in the shade would be a better heat sink for the switch than a plastic one.  Might even consider some heat transfer paste where the ears are screwed down.  Might also drill some ventilation holes provided you can keep rain off the box..  You could also consider the high wattage Insteon switches which have better heat sinks even though you aren't dealing with high watts.

In my case, I have 2 Insteon switches mounted side by side in a plastic gang box in an outbuiliding that is virtually never heated or cooled (it has hvac but I only turn it on when I'm working in there).  Summers here have plenty of sunny 100-107 degree days.  Not sure how hot the garage gets inside, probably not the full 100+ degrees since it does have thermal mass that buffers it a bit.  These switches control outdoor lights that ISY turns on every night for a few hours.  These are led lights, so not very many watts to heat things up.  I am pretty sure these particular switches have been in place ever since I pulled all of my 2476D's and replaced them with 2477D's.  The 76 ones never died out there and so for the 77 ones have not either.  Between those two switches, there has been an Insteon switch there for 10 years.  I want to say roughly 5 years each.  In summary, Insteon switches are capable of being in a hot environment so your switch might just have been a weak one or maybe the particular run of whatever component in your switch wasn't as good, I don't know.

[Teken]

Are they mounted in a metal box?  A metal box that is in the shade would be a better heat sink for the switch than a plastic one.  Might even consider some heat transfer paste where the ears are screwed down.  Might also drill some ventilation holes provided you can keep rain off the box..  You could also consider the high wattage Insteon switches which have better heat sinks even though you aren't dealing with high watts.
In my case, I have 2 Insteon switches mounted side by side in a plastic gang box in an outbuiliding that is virtually never heated or cooled (it has hvac but I only turn it on when I'm working in there).  Summers here have plenty of sunny 100-107 degree days.  Not sure how hot the garage gets inside, probably not the full 100+ degrees since it does have thermal mass that buffers it a bit.  These switches control outdoor lights that ISY turns on every night for a few hours.  These are led lights, so not very many watts to heat things up.  I am pretty sure these particular switches have been in place ever since I pulled all of my 2476D's and replaced them with 2477D's.  The 76 ones never died out there and so for the 77 ones have not either.  Between those two switches, there has been an Insteon switch there for 10 years.  I want to say roughly 5 years each.  In summary, Insteon switches are capable of being in a hot environment so your switch might just have been a weak one or maybe the particular run of whatever component in your switch wasn't as good, I don't know.

Plastic JB?!? You silly Americans!!


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[apostolakisl]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

 

Plastic JB?!? You silly Americans!!


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I feel bad for you metal guys, rf attentuation must be a bitch.

[Teken]

I feel bad for you metal guys, rf attentuation must be a bitch.

Not a problem with 99999999 dual band devices bra!


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[mclowejr]

Thanks for the tips.  My box is plastic and is outside (our circuit box is on the outside of the house).  It is mostly shaded, especially from the hot afternoon sun.  I would actually be concerned with metal boxes getting hotter here. The sun heats up anything metal like crazy.  I may look into trying to improve the capacitors as well.  Our AC capacitors go every 2-3 years due to heat and dry conditions.  Seems logical that the switch ones would as well.  

Very appreciative of the advice.  Thanks again.

 

[larryllix]

15 minutes ago, mclowejr said:

Thanks for the tips.  My box is plastic and is outside (our circuit box is on the outside of the house).  It is mostly shaded, especially from the hot afternoon sun.  I would actually be concerned with metal boxes getting hotter here. The sun heats up anything metal like crazy.  I may look into trying to improve the capacitors as well.  Our AC capacitors go every 2-3 years due to heat and dry conditions.  Seems logical that the switch ones would as well.  

Very appreciative of the advice.  Thanks again.

 

Metal, likely being more reflective would stay cooler than solar absorbent plastic. Metal only feels hotter to the human touch due to a smoother surface making more contact and having a higher specific heat, so it doesn't cool as quickly when a cooler skin touches it.

[apostolakisl]

18 hours ago, mclowejr said:

Thanks for the tips.  My box is plastic and is outside (our circuit box is on the outside of the house).  It is mostly shaded, especially from the hot afternoon sun.  I would actually be concerned with metal boxes getting hotter here. The sun heats up anything metal like crazy.  I may look into trying to improve the capacitors as well.  Our AC capacitors go every 2-3 years due to heat and dry conditions.  Seems logical that the switch ones would as well.  

Very appreciative of the advice.  Thanks again.

 

As Larry said, metal feels hotter not because it is hotter but because it conducts better.  I taught my kids with a little exercise.  I asked them to tell me which objects in our kitchen counter were hotter and which were cooler.  They said the towel was hotter, the granite the coldest, some papers a bit warmer.  We then pointed the thermometer at them and of course they were all 73 degrees.  The granite just is efficient at conducting.

So, 2 points.

1) The switch heats up things

2) The sun heats up things

The metal box will be better at conducting heat both into and out of the switch as compared to plastic.  If you can keep the box in the shade, then it will not be conducting the heat of direct sunlight in, but rather conducting the heat of the switch out.  

This benefit is most pronounced at higher ambient temps.  The higher the ambient temp, the better conductor you need to get the heat out of the switch.

In summary, a well ventilated and shaded metal box with good thermal contact between it and the switch heat sink (the ears), the cooler the switch will be.

[larryllix]

39 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

As Larry said, metal feels hotter not because it is hotter but because it conducts better.  I taught my kids with a little exercise.  I asked them to tell me which objects in our kitchen counter were hotter and which were cooler.  They said the towel was hotter, the granite the coldest, some papers a bit warmer.  We then pointed the thermometer at them and of course they were all 73 degrees.  The granite just is efficient at conducting.

So, 2 points.

1) The switch heats up things

2) The sun heats up things

The metal box will be better at conducting heat both into and out of the switch as compared to plastic.  If you can keep the box in the shade, then it will not be conducting the heat of direct sunlight in, but rather conducting the heat of the switch out.  

This benefit is most pronounced at higher ambient temps.  The higher the ambient temp, the better conductor you need to get the heat out of the switch.

In summary, a well ventilated and shaded metal box with good thermal contact between it and the switch heat sink (the ears), the cooler the switch will be.

All makes sense but it is outside exposed to some weather. Hole won;t work in this case. Inside a protective case to dissipate heat into the outside atmosphere may make more sense for this but IIRC this is an established installation.

Breaking the cable in the basement and installing a control point inside on the basement ceiling may be an option.

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

All makes sense but it is outside exposed to some weather. Hole won;t work in this case. Inside a protective case to dissipate heat into the outside atmosphere may make more sense for this but IIRC this is an established installation.

Breaking the cable in the basement and installing a control point inside on the basement ceiling may be an option.

Long story short, as long as the box/switch is not in direct sunlight or hit by precipitation, I don't think there should be an issue.  Like I said, I have two switches in an outbuilding and I used to have a switch in my chicken coup.  None exposed directly either to sun or precipitation, but all subject to 100 plus degrees quite often and none failed.  All 2477D.  Also, at the low end, they all experienced temps into the upper 20's and the full swings of outdoor humidity which will hit 90 percent on summer mornings.  85/85 temp/humidity is real common in August/September around sunrise.

This particular switch that the OP had die may also have just been a switch that died.  Those happen even in perfectly controlled environments.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

Long story short, as long as the box/switch is not in direct sunlight or hit by precipitation, I don't think there should be an issue.  Like I said, I have two switches in an outbuilding and I used to have a switch in my chicken coup.  None exposed directly either to sun or precipitation, but all subject to 100 plus degrees quite often and none failed.  All 2477D.  Also, at the low end, they all experienced temps into the upper 20's and the full swings of outdoor humidity which will hit 90 percent on summer mornings.  85/85 temp/humidity is real common in August/September around sunrise.

This particular switch that the OP had die may also have just been a switch that died.  Those happen even in perfectly controlled environments.

He already indicated it was exposed to weather.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

He already indicated it was exposed to weather.

He indicated it was mounted below the outdoor circuit box and mostly shaded.  If it wee getting hit by rain, I'm sure it would have died very quickly.  It shouldn't be so hard to block sun and rain on a wall that is allowed to be ugly (I've never seen a circuit breaker box mounted somewhere visible. . . but I suppose.

But here is another option.

What is on the other side of the wall it is mounted?  Is it indoor conditioned space?  Yes?  Great.  Drill a hole directly through the back wall of the outdoor j-box and all the way into the house.  Splice 18 inches of wire onto the wires in the outdoor j-box and push it through to the inside where you install an "old-work" j-box.  Now, your done.  Switch is indoors.  

[mclowejr]

The switch is outside directly exposed to weather (inside a weatherproof switch box).  Yes, it is true that metal is a better heat conductor; however, you have to remember that is a 2 way transmission.  Inside a metal box that is directly in Arizona sun is much hotter than inside a poorer conductor plastic box.  So the question becomes, which is worse - insulating from the outside heat or trapping in the produced heat?  The box is shaded by the house during the crazy hot afternoons but it does get direct sunlight from about 6am to 11am, a fair amount of direct exposure.

It is mounted to my garage wall so moving it inside may be a viable option.  I have 2 other of these switches up underneath my porch that have lasted very nicely so it seems very likely to be weather related.  I swapped out the switch so I'll do some testing on the old switch to see if I can find the issue in that one.  I appreciate the suggestions from everyone.

Edited May 12, 2020 by mclowejr

[apostolakisl]

17 hours ago, mclowejr said:

The switch is outside directly exposed to weather (inside a weatherproof switch box).  Yes, it is true that metal is a better heat conductor; however, you have to remember that is a 2 way transmission.  Inside a metal box that is directly in Arizona sun is much hotter than inside a poorer conductor plastic box.  So the question becomes, which is worse - insulating from the outside heat or trapping in the produced heat?  The box is shaded by the house during the crazy hot afternoons but it does get direct sunlight from about 6am to 11am, a fair amount of direct exposure.

It is mounted to my garage wall so moving it inside may be a viable option.  I have 2 other of these switches up underneath my porch that have lasted very nicely so it seems very likely to be weather related.  I swapped out the switch so I'll do some testing on the old switch to see if I can find the issue in that one.  I appreciate the suggestions from everyone.

If it is a garage on the inside, I would definitely drill through.  Even if your handwork isn't the prettiest, it won't much matter in a garage.  Getting it out of the sun and rain has got to help.  I assume your garage is not conditioned, but if it is attached to your house, it will likely have buffered heat swings.