cayz Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 Ok, What is GOING ON!!!??? (this happened just about 9 months ago - but this year I haven't done anything EXCEPT I replaced the fan & lightkit on one of my Fanlincs, but that was like 3-4 weeks ago?) It's started again. Alexa can't reach any of my devices. my.isy.io is likewise "dead". My Zwave lock is reportedly "jammed" (it isn't). All of my wireless controls are no longer controlling anything. Basically, if it is controlled by voice or internet or wireless alone, it's out of my control right now. Once again, the ISY has re-programmed the ON Level and Ramp Timer for the Fan Lincs to 0% and 9min, respectively (instead of 100% and 0.1 sec). Now, since I can't write to the devices, (error communicating), I'm wondering what is going on. This time, I'm not taking any action for 24 hours, unless someone can suggest a potential fix. But, I'm starting to lose faith...
Michel Kohanim Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 @cayz, I am so very sorry to hear. I suspect your PLM has died. Can please reboot and then go to Tools | Diagnostics | PLM Status/Info? What do you get? With kind regards, Michel
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 I continue to get Which is an old fanlinc controller, but I replaced the physical fan behind it back in October(?) - nothing special, but I did replace the single 6W LED light kit with a larger 18W one, since it is the sole light in the room, and it is used as an office. This is what is in my main listing: Now, what is odd is that the wireless 8-button RemoteLinc has now started to work again. so I can control the light and the fan using the wireless remote, but the fan light & motor still show as having changes ready for them, but pushing the writes gives the failure messages above. None of my schedules house-wide are working yet (dusk lights didn't come on), and alexa / isy integration still doesn't work. But, unlike the previous time, I am still getting notifications from my door lock (kwikset / z-wave to z-wave dongle in iSY to ISY settings to email). That hasn't stopped at all. Now, I'd rather not delete that fan / light yet, since it is in my office, and I need the light to work at least until tomorrow. If you honestly think another PLM is going to solve it, I'll buy one. But I'm wondering why I'm going through them once every couple years - this will be my third or fourth one... Is it really a "short term use item", and I should by a spare just to have on hand when this one dies again? Should I do yet another Factory Reset : (paulbates from last time ) Restore the back up Factory reset the new PLM unplug it from the wall outlet and wait 10 seconds. Press and hold its SET button, plug it back in, continue holding the SET button for 3 seconds and release. After several seconds, the Status LED will turn on, indicating a reset is complete. Restore PLM from the file menu James
lilyoyo1 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 13 hours ago, cayz said: I continue to get Which is an old fanlinc controller, but I replaced the physical fan behind it back in October(?) - nothing special, but I did replace the single 6W LED light kit with a larger 18W one, since it is the sole light in the room, and it is used as an office. This is what is in my main listing: Now, what is odd is that the wireless 8-button RemoteLinc has now started to work again. so I can control the light and the fan using the wireless remote, but the fan light & motor still show as having changes ready for them, but pushing the writes gives the failure messages above. None of my schedules house-wide are working yet (dusk lights didn't come on), and alexa / isy integration still doesn't work. But, unlike the previous time, I am still getting notifications from my door lock (kwikset / z-wave to z-wave dongle in iSY to ISY settings to email). That hasn't stopped at all. Now, I'd rather not delete that fan / light yet, since it is in my office, and I need the light to work at least until tomorrow. If you honestly think another PLM is going to solve it, I'll buy one. But I'm wondering why I'm going through them once every couple years - this will be my third or fourth one... Is it really a "short term use item", and I should by a spare just to have on hand when this one dies again? Should I do yet another Factory Reset : (paulbates from last time ) Restore the back up Factory reset the new PLM unplug it from the wall outlet and wait 10 seconds. Press and hold its SET button, plug it back in, continue holding the SET button for 3 seconds and release. After several seconds, the Status LED will turn on, indicating a reset is complete. Restore PLM from the file menu James what is your firmware and ui? are these the only devices having problems with communication?
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: what is your firmware and ui? are these the only devices having problems with communication? As of just now, my Living Room FanLinc has joined in by becoming unreachable. Note, these are the ones that the system actually reports as being problematic. Late last night, HOURS after I did the last power-off / power-on of the PLM & ISY, things appeared to be returning to normal - I could use the CrtlHome ios app to turn lights and fans on, and Alexa integration had returned. I thought, ok, perhaps I don't need to make that $500 purchase of Alexa-direct-controlled devices yet and spend a weekend flipping breakers and replacing controllers. However, when I awoke, things were bad again. Alexa integration, crtlHome are both not working, and only a few devices work when I'm in the isy admin panel. Some work, but take seconds to actually "work" (click on "ON", wait 5 seconds, the light turns on). I dunno. Another $80 for a PLM that will last how long? $160 if I want to make sure I'm not without a system for a few days. And even then, when I replaced it, it took it several hours for it to get its head on straight.
lilyoyo1 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, cayz said: As of just now, my Living Room FanLinc has joined in by becoming unreachable. Note, these are the ones that the system actually reports as being problematic. Late last night, HOURS after I did the last power-off / power-on of the PLM & ISY, things appeared to be returning to normal - I could use the CrtlHome ios app to turn lights and fans on, and Alexa integration had returned. I thought, ok, perhaps I don't need to make that $500 purchase of Alexa-direct-controlled devices yet and spend a weekend flipping breakers and replacing controllers. However, when I awoke, things were bad again. Alexa integration, crtlHome are both not working, and only a few devices work when I'm in the isy admin panel. Some work, but take seconds to actually "work" (click on "ON", wait 5 seconds, the light turns on). I dunno. Another $80 for a PLM that will last how long? $160 if I want to make sure I'm not without a system for a few days. And even then, when I replaced it, it took it several hours for it to get its head on straight. I dont use crtlhome so I cant speak on that. However, I dont think the issue is the plm if those are the only devices the isy is showing errors for. Most likely you have communication (noise) issues in the area. Is the PLM plugged into a surge protector or battery backup? What else is on the circuit that its plugged into?
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I dont use crtlhome so I cant speak on that. However, I dont think the issue is the plm if those are the only devices the isy is showing errors for. Most likely you have communication (noise) issues in the area. Is the PLM plugged into a surge protector or battery backup? What else is on the circuit that its plugged into? The PLM is plugged into a straight extension cable (no power strip) that runs into a plug in the office. At that plug (6 outlets) there are 2 plug-in controllers (one for a desk lamp, one for a floor fan), a power strip with several USB adapters in it for charging a variety of usb devices on my desk, and a paper shredder (turned off, hasn't been used in months). On that same CIRCUIT, I have the rest of my office - a 1500watt UPS with about 20 items plugged in to both the battery protected and surge-protected side (I have a fairly powerful office computing environment), It is not overloaded, I just have a lot of low amperage devices that all need power. My ISY is on the battery backup; I prefer to keep computer equipment as protected as possible. Now, if you are suggesting that I relocate the ISY and/or PLM to a less potentially line-noise environment, that would be doable but problematic. My only wired connections to the Internet are in my office. The only "easily" accessible other area is directly downstairs in the family room (TV, home theater PC, and other associated equipment). It too has a 1500watt UPS at that location, powering the TV, internet modem, etc. If it is "noise" as you suspect, would it be fair to assume that powering off the offending device would instantly clear up the connection? If so, I can certainly turn everything off in sequence to see if / when the problem "goes away". (Just now, my office ceiling fan light went out - likely in response to a command I gave at the admin console 30+ minutes ago. The local KeyLinc (on my desk) immediately turned it back on).
lilyoyo1 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, cayz said: The PLM is plugged into a straight extension cable (no power strip) that runs into a plug in the office. At that plug (6 outlets) there are 2 plug-in controllers (one for a desk lamp, one for a floor fan), a power strip with several USB adapters in it for charging a variety of usb devices on my desk, and a paper shredder (turned off, hasn't been used in months). On that same CIRCUIT, I have the rest of my office - a 1500watt UPS with about 20 items plugged in to both the battery protected and surge-protected side (I have a fairly powerful office computing environment), It is not overloaded, I just have a lot of low amperage devices that all need power. My ISY is on the battery backup; I prefer to keep computer equipment as protected as possible. Now, if you are suggesting that I relocate the ISY and/or PLM to a less potentially line-noise environment, that would be doable but problematic. My only wired connections to the Internet are in my office. The only "easily" accessible other area is directly downstairs in the family room (TV, home theater PC, and other associated equipment). It too has a 1500watt UPS at that location, powering the TV, internet modem, etc. If it is "noise" as you suspect, would it be fair to assume that powering off the offending device would instantly clear up the connection? If so, I can certainly turn everything off in sequence to see if / when the problem "goes away". (Just now, my office ceiling fan light went out - likely in response to a command I gave at the admin console 30+ minutes ago. The local KeyLinc (on my desk) immediately turned it back on). I would unplug everything that you can for testing purposes. Especially the UPS. The lamps shouldnt matter. However to find the culprit, its better to start with a clean circuit and then add things 1 at a time until you find the problem device.
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 Perhaps a better question is - what tools do you true pros use to measure AC line noise wrt Insteon channels. ?
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 I thought the whole purpose of the insteon is that it is dual-band - AC and radio. I have a dual-band PLM for that reason. If there is noise on the line (and I expect in my house, there would be), that it would rely upon the radio for most of the stuff. What's odd is that my keypadlincs seem to be working the most reliably, including the one on my desk in the midst of all of the other "stuff" plugged in.
lilyoyo1 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, cayz said: I thought the whole purpose of the insteon is that it is dual-band - AC and radio. I have a dual-band PLM for that reason. If there is noise on the line (and I expect in my house, there would be), that it would rely upon the radio for most of the stuff. What's odd is that my keypadlincs seem to be working the most reliably, including the one on my desk in the midst of all of the other "stuff" plugged in. The RF is still tied to the zero crossing in regards to the timing of the signal. If that is messed up at the source (in your case, its the plm), then you will have trouble. While being dual band does help, it helps more with communication beyond the sending device (once the signal goes out).
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: The RF is still tied to the zero crossing in regards to the timing of the signal. If that is messed up at the source (in your case, its the plm), then you will have trouble. While being dual band does help, it helps more with communication beyond the sending device (once the signal goes out). I'm thinking it may be easier to either just move the PLM (using a long ethernet connection) to another part of the house, or bringing other power to the PLM (temporarily, in the form of an extension cord). If either of those "fix" the problem, that will "work" until whatever circuit the PLM is on becomes noisy...
cayz Posted December 11, 2020 Author Posted December 11, 2020 24 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: The RF is still tied to the zero crossing in regards to the timing of the signal. If that is messed up at the source (in your case, its the plm), then you will have trouble. While being dual band does help, it helps more with communication beyond the sending device (once the signal goes out). So, it isn't so much "dual band" as it is "dual path"? There is still an intrinsic dependency upon getting the zero-crossing on the power line in order to send over the radio? TBH, that sounds like a terrible idea - to make the radio signal dependent upon the power line that it is trying hard to bypass. Does that mean that the radios are only listening at zero-crossing? And how does that make sense with regards to remotelincs, which have no reference to power line? Again, those seem to be working fine in my household right now.
lilyoyo1 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 1 minute ago, cayz said: So, it isn't so much "dual band" as it is "dual path"? There is still an intrinsic dependency upon getting the zero-crossing on the power line in order to send over the radio? TBH, that sounds like a terrible idea - to make the radio signal dependent upon the power line that it is trying hard to bypass. Does that mean that the radios are only listening at zero-crossing? And how does that make sense with regards to remotelincs, which have no reference to power line? Again, those seem to be working fine in my household right now. Insteon signals are based on the zero crossing to avoid collisions since both go out at the same time. This comes into play due to its use of broadcast messaging since every device will pick up the signal and repeat it. For the most part; when things work, they work really well. When they dont, its a terrible idea from the end users perspective. Whether its rf only, powerline only, or both- each has their own pros and cons. Had they not done something to lessen the chance of collisons, your system would probably end up being more unstable and rife with issues. Tying the signal to the powerline gives them a consistent point at which to send communication for all devices instead of something less consistent. Wireless devices are controller only and uses only RF (until the signal hits a hardwired device and re-transmits the signal). In general, the idea is for the remote to control other devices locally (meaning within the same area) so only the rf signal comes into play. When a device is out of range, other dual band devices will pick up the signal at which point the zero crossing comes into play.
mwester Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 26 minutes ago, cayz said: So, it isn't so much "dual band" as it is "dual path"? There is still an intrinsic dependency upon getting the zero-crossing on the power line in order to send over the radio? TBH, that sounds like a terrible idea - to make the radio signal dependent upon the power line that it is trying hard to bypass. Does that mean that the radios are only listening at zero-crossing? And how does that make sense with regards to remotelincs, which have no reference to power line? Again, those seem to be working fine in my household right now. Yep, it's a dreadfully awful idea -- but it's better than nothing, and I expect there were other reasons why the engineers were unable to implement a better solution at the time (keep in mind that they didn't have access to the wealth of low-cost RF solutions and low-cost small-form-factor computing chips we have today). As for the remotelinc -- the devices are indeed capable of receiving messages that are not synced to the power-line. It seems that the issue is related to re-transmission of same. The Insteon protocol is designed such that multiple devices can transmit the same message at the same time (avoiding the need for concepts such as "healing" the network in z-wave, etc). Doing this requires that all devices that might transmit at the same time be synced to an external timing reference -- the chosen reference for Insteon is the zero-crossing point of the AC cycle. The problem is that devices using switching power supplies (as well as some dimmer circuits) do not pull power from the AC line linearly, which (skipping a lot of gory detail) results in the waveform being distorted such that the zero-crossing becomes quite indistinct, and in fact can appear at slightly different points in time at different points in your wiring. I suspect that there are other restrictions with regard to the RF to power-line mechanism that result in the infamous "all-on" problem. I've never seen a documented case of an "all-on" being triggered by a remotelinc, but I suspect that's because we probably don't trigger them as often as other Insteon wireless sensors like motion sensors (plus we probably replace the batteries more often in the hand-held devices than in the often-forgotten door and motion sensors). It seems a missed opportunity for Insteon -- a "gen2" of the hardware and firmware, with (limited) compatibility for existing devices but making use of vastly improved RF, compute, memory to fix a lot of these issues. But the technical possibilities require business vision, and that's clearly been lacking at not-so-Smarthome.
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