another problem

[jkraus]

everytime I get Insteon working for a few day and feel good, it stops again. I bet I have spent 10 times debugging it then using it. You guys are great, but onceagain...

 

Had a KPL in my kitchen controlling some scenes, been working great for several months. Tonight it blinks when I press a button usually eventuallyt lighting the scence, but soemtiems not. Same on hitting the button off. I know this is a comminication issue, but it has worked for a few months ,now does not. If I control the scene from other KPLs and remotes that are in the scene works fine, just this one KPL. Have tried to restore but no difference. Again it woks but takes time, keypad light blinks and then light most fo the time lights evnetually comes on, Have about 5 APs.

 

So what is the procedure to track this one down, as I guess eventually I will become an expert?

 

Please give me the most likey culprit. Ground wire disonnect at KPL? KPL bad? One of the APs bad? Ran event viewer and while not sure what to look for seemd OK. Pease Insteon, just work for a couple of months without me having to spend hour after hour debugging!

 

Joe

[oberkc]

I get this occassionally, then it quits. I suspect this has nothing to do with faulty KPL, ground wire, or AP but, as you say, communication. Something changes in your electrical environment which causes communication issues. The possibilities are almost unlimited but you know your house best, and I suggest focusing your attention on things that are not continually on, such as furnance, refrigerator, washing machines, etc...

[Brian H]

Also look at anything new added to the home that plugs in to the AC.

Moving an electrical device sometimes changes things also.

Someone moves a cell phone charger to plug in some holiday decorations and in the new place. It generates noise that didn't effect the system until moved.

[jkraus]

adding to the mystery, one of the buttons seems to be worse (blinks more when pressed) so I removed it from the scene so it controlls nothing and it still bilinks when pressed. Does that make any sense?

[jkraus]

here is the event viewer when turinig it on:

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0E.75.3B 00.00.07 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [standard-Group][0E.75.3B-->Group=7] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [ E 75 3B 7] DON 0

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [ E 1E CF 1] ST 255

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [ E 75 3B 7] ST 255

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [ 10 1 94 7] ST 255

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:18 AM : [ 10 5 51 7] ST 255

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:21 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0E.75.3B 0F.41.A5 41 11 07 LTONRR (07)

 

Sat 12/12/2009 09:42:21 AM : [standard-Cleanup][0E.75.3B-->ISY/PLM Group=7] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

[jkraus]

At wits end. Removed from scenes, reset to facotry added back in and same problem. Added another AP (man they are all over the place now) and was much better for a few hours, now justas bad

[oberkc]

At wits end. Removed from scenes, reset to facotry added back in and same problem. Added another AP (man they are all over the place now) and was much better for a few hours, now justas bad

 

Been there. I have also read some theories that one can have too many access points. Go figure.

 

I would have performed the factory reset, as you did, but rather than adding back to the scene as a whole, I would first add it to your ISY, then perform a scene test (tools>>diagnostics>>scene teset) on that one device. Perhaps it will be necessary to create a dummy test scene just for this purpose. I believe it is possible that the the blinking may be caused by communication problems between the device and the ISY. Best to make sure that is not the case. If it passes the scene test a few times then....

 

Start adding the other insteon devices, one at a time, into the scene, performing a scene test after each is added. See if there is one of the devices that consistently fails the scene test. If so, you have something to go on. Remove other electronic stuff plugged into the circuit that includes the offending insteon device to see if you can isolate the problem-causer.

 

Do you use any filters? Is your ISY/PLM electrically isolated from the computer system? I have several throughout the house, and the system does not work as well without them.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi,

 

Based on my experiences this usually happens when the load attached to the switch does not "agree" with the switch. There are two cases:

1. The load requires higher wattage than the switch

2. The load is itself the cause of the noise for instance CFLs/Halogen/Low voltage w/transformers ... these may work for a short while but they will eventually bring your system down

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[jkraus]

Well Michel

 

Once again you are correrct. The most problomatice key on the keypad controlled out outisde switchlinc that controlled a few light, one in an outside box that had been partiall flooded with water due to the storm we are having. Cleaned it all up and all is good.

 

Wondering why other keypad keys also blinked soemtimes as if it were just the one I would have discoverd the problem earlier. Also other keypads worked OK, so I am still a little puzzled. Happy to have it fixed but curious as for future mystery solving

 

Thanks again

 

Joe

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Joe,

 

I am glad!

 

If other buttons on your KPL blink, then I would have to agree with the previous posts (BrianH and oberkc) on communications issues between the KPL and the PLM. In most of my experiences, the problem has been the KPL itself. If a factory reset/restore fixes this issue the I think you would have to look for a replacement KPL. Also, make sure the KPL is NOT hot. If it's hot, then it means that the wattage of the load is larger than what it can handle and therefore all the issues.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[jkraus]

Michel,

 

will keep this thread going as I am not 100% I have it all fixed.

 

After cleaning up the water in the box things are 95% better but not perfect. The blinking has stopped, but there seems to be some delay sometimes when I hit the KPL button and the light comes on where I am used to instant Insteon. Also, when holding down the KPL button after I have turned it on to dim the light sometimes it does and sometimes does not.

 

I should mention that before I finally detected the water in the junction box, it had gotten so bad that it was tripping the breaker, so do you think I hurt the KPL? or Maybe the switchlinc that was the responder?

 

The KPL controls an outside switchlinc that has about 6 lights on it, but not exceeding the maximum wattage, ...but obviously it did for a short period during the short

 

You opinion or test I could do would be appreciated

[IndyMike]

adding to the mystery, one of the buttons seems to be worse (blinks more when pressed) so I removed it from the scene so it controlls nothing and it still bilinks when pressed. Does that make any sense?

 

A small point...

 

Even though a button is not liked to any scenes, it is still linked to the PLM.

 

If an unlinked button flashes, you either have bad (phantom) links in the device or a communication problem with the PLM.

[jkraus]

Thanks IndyMike

 

OK that helps, but a factory restore should remove any of those phantom links correct?

[IndyMike]

That's correct

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello jkraus,

 

Are delays noticeable on all the responders for that KPL? Or is it just for the outside SWL. If it's only for the outside SWL, I would assume that it has gone bad. The best thing to do would be to:

1. Factory reset the outside SWL (yes, one more time)

2. Do a restore on it

 

If the problem persists, then my guess is that your outside SWL has gone bad.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[IndyMike]

Hi jkraus,

 

I apologize for jumping in the middle - I missed your last post (we were apparently typing at the same time).

 

I'm having a had time believing that your SWL survived a short on the output that was capable of tripping the breaker. I'm assuming that you're using a relay unit - correct?

 

Water isn't all that conductive, until it's combined with corrosion products. Have a close look at the connections in your box. If they're corroded, cut them off and strip back to clean copper. Poor connections generate heat when under load. Since it sounds like you have several lamps on this circuit (loads downstream from this box) you may be drawing significant current through it. Excessive heat can really ruin your day.

 

Are there any other loads powered off the same breaker? Is it possible that you have another exterior box (not on the SWL) that could also be a problem?

 

I'm looking for a potential short on a parallel branch that could have tripped the breaker without subjecting the SWL to excessive current. It's possible that the load from your lamps combined with the "water load" was enough to just trip the breaker. I never seem to get that lucky - Murphy won't allow it.

 

If the answers to the above are "no", then I would side with Michel - your SWL may be suffering from the "high load" event. The fact that the response is slow may be due to the fact that the KPL is having problems communicating and is performing retries.

 

IM

[jkraus]

responding to both Michel and IndyMike

 

One more tidbit of info ( I say tidbit but I think I mislead you). Yes it tripped the breaker but did not mention that this breaker is a GFI breaker at the panel, so not necessarily overload as just might have had some leakage current due to the water. Make sense?

 

 

Also, I did not do a factory reset on the swl just the KPL so should i do the reset on the swl and no it is not a relay but a dimmer.

 

 

thanks so much for yr patience

[Brian H]

Some GFI Breakers can mess up X10 signals. So it could also be true for Insteon ones.

[IndyMike]

Hi Joe,

 

Yes the GFI makes complete sense.

 

The presence of a GFI breaker on the line does raise other issues. Some of these devices are pretty good signal attenuators themselves (at least for X10).

 

I have no experience with the panel mounted GFI's. Signal attenuation on duplex GFI's varies by make/model. I've seen over 50% attenuation with no load.

 

You may want to try putting a AP on that circuit to jump over (around) the GFI.

[jkraus]

Thanks Indy Mike, that may indeed be a good suggestion on the AP.

 

However, since this circuit has worked flawlessly since installation 9 months ago, and the failure is coincident with the water filled junction box, I suspect something else is going on.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi Joe,

 

I had the same thing with an InlineLinc (water in the box) and had to replace the device as there was some corrosion on the inside.

 

Certainly you can try a reset and restore.

 

Rand

[jkraus]

Now I am having the same problem on a different KPl for a different light. I am almost ready to give up, way too much time debugging. You guys are great help, but remotely turning lights on and off should not be a full time job, so my wife says

[jkraus]

Please help

 

a second problomatic KPL, is this comminucation problems with the PLM. I don't even know where to start anymore. I got another switchlinc should I replace teh one? Why are the KPLs acting up. This is too confusing.

[IndyMike]

Hello Joe,

 

I'm sorry to hear about the continued problems. Your wife is correct (that goes without saying) that this shouldn't be that hard.

 

You asked whether your most recent KPL problem was due to communication problems with the PLM. That depends on how you programmed the KPL.

 

From your description, you have a scene set up with the KPL as a controller and another switch as a responder - Correct (please confirm).

 

If the above is true, the communications between the KPL and linked switch are controlled by the KPL.

 

1) The KPL issues a group command and all of the programmed listeners respond by going to their respective levels. If your problem switch does not respond, it either did not hear the group command or it has a link table problem.

2) The KPL issues group cleanup commands to the individual responders of the scene to determine whether they reacted properly.

3) If a scene responder does not reply correctly to the cleanup command you will see the "button flash" on the KPL. This simply means that the KPL didn't get the correct response from one of the linked devices (the PLM is also a responder).

 

The following is the level 3 event log from a test scene that I set up. I have a KPL button B controlling 1 appliancelinc in a scene. The PLM is also a responder.

 

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.BF.A4 00.00.03 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Group broadcast command from the KPL

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [standard-Group][0F.BF.A4-->Group=3] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [ F BF A4 3] DOF 0

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [ F BF A4 3] ST 0 KPL anticipated status

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [ 10 DA 4C 1] ST 0 Appliancelinc anticipated status

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.BF.A4 0C.A8.B4 41 13 03 LTOFFRR(03) Cleanup request from KPL to PLM

Fri 12/18/2009 09:45:56 AM : [standard-Cleanup][0F.BF.A4-->ISY/PLM Group=3] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Now the problem with the above - I can unplug the appliancelinc and the log does not change even though the KPL button flashes wildly.

 

Why doesn't the PLM see this problem? The cleanup command to the appliancelinc is addressed to that device specifically. As a result, the PLM doesn't see the request, or the failure. It's the nature of the Insteon protocol. Devices are not allowed to see communications that are not addressed to them.

 

So, that's a fair amount of information and absolutely no help in your current problem. How do you approach this? I've been going back over your previous posts and it looks like you've been making a number of additions and modifications to your system. Here is how I would approach the issue.

 

1) Verify that communications at the PLM are solid. Use system queries to start. Once these are working, use scene tests to localize problem areas.

 

2) Ask yourself what recent additions you've made. In a previous thread, you mentioned a X10 coupler that you may have removed. If this was a passive coupler, please re-install it. I have a 4500 foot installation run off a passive coupler and 1 accesspoint. Accesspoints are rather complicated devices that can be fooled by local noise or RF interference. Passive couplers can't be fooled or upset - they always work.

 

3) I noticed that you added one or more dual band lamplincs. I have zero experience with these, but view them as even more complicated than the Accesspoints. For troubleshooting, you might consider removing them.

 

In general, you have a lot of accesspoints and are still seeing communications issues. With 5(?) AP's installed there is no way to determine what path your Insteon communication is taking. As a result, it's very difficult to localize problem areas.

 

In contrast, I have a passive coupler at my electrical panel. I know exactly how the Insteon communication propagates through my installation. When a problem arises (rare but it happens) I can localize it and search for an offender (PS 3 moved - again!).

 

I'd like to see you reduce your dependence on AP's to bridge around problems. They may appear to be a quick solution, but a problem that you don't understand will likely come back to bite you again.

 

Make no mistake - this will be work. Your better half may not appreciate you tearing into your system (particularly if you have family inbound). If you feel you have the time (and patience) let us know. You might start with the passive coupler.

 

IM

[jkraus]

Thanks IndyMike

 

I had a conf call with Michel last night as he logged into my system. He thinks I need to bridge close to the electrical panel and get rid of some of the excess APs. I will give this a try and digest some of your comments here, but one question on the couplers.

 

I had two the I recently removed one was definitely passive on at the 220v Dryer, the other I always though was not passive but active in the electrical panel. Both of these were for my x10 previous system and wee recently removed on advice here.

 

I have tried to put back the dryer one (because it is easy) with no help, but are you saying the one in the electrical panel, if indeed it was active, maybe should be replaced? Or do you have a passive one recommendation?

 

I think this is it: http://www.smarthome.com/4823/Leviton-2 ... 10E/p.aspx