Zwave Three way

[grossmd]

I turned my house over to insteon 15+ years ago. At that time I made all my 3 way switches virtual relying on my ISy to create scenes between load switches and “slaves” which were just load/neutral switches ( having capped the old travelers) If I’m forced to move to zwave can this be robustly recreated or will I need to re wire my old three way circuits? Is anyone out there currently using ISy/ zwave like that? Curious what your experience has been. Thanks. 

[lilyoyo1]

It's possible with zwave. What you need to do depends on what you end up using

[grossmd]

15 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It's possible with zwave. What you need to do depends on what you end up using

I have been looking at various zwave plus switches. I was hoping to just mimic my current setup. One switch to line load and neutral, a second/or more to line and neutral and then link the switches as a scene. Works so well with Insteon I can’t tell they are not physically connected. Has anyone tried this with zwave. If so, how does it function?

[asbril]

There are several ways.  First you have auxiliary switches working as 3 -way. Inovelli switches (and maybe also Zooz) can work as 3-way with the "slave" switch just a plain old standard switch, and lastly you can use 2 Zwave switches working together as 3-way with a program in ISY.

[grossmd]

So it’s the last option I am interested in so as not to have to find my old three way wires. Have you or anyone reading this utilized that configuration and if so how did it go? Thanks

[asbril]

1 a and 1b work only when manually clicking on either switch

(1a)

IF

Switch 1 Control is ON

THEN

Switch 2 is ON

(1b)

IF

Switch 2 Control is ON

THEN

Switch 1 is ON

The same with OFF to switch OFF

 

2a and 2b work not only when manually pressing the switch but also in the Administrative Console, UD Mobile or in a ISY program.

(2a)

IF 

Status Switch 1 is ON

THEN

Switch 2 ON

(2b)

IF Status Switch 2 in ON

THEN

Switch 1 ON

and same for OFF

There other possibilities and most likely others in this forum will suggest something else, but this works.

[grossmd]

Sorry, not clear. Are you suggesting writing programs for each circuit?  Will ISY scenes work with zwaze? Seems would be more robust

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, grossmd said:

Sorry, not clear. Are you suggesting writing programs for each circuit?  Will ISY scenes work with zwaze? Seems would be more robust

This is why I stated it depends on what you use. Different zwave brands achieve your desired results differently. 

You're asking open ended questions which is why you're getting open ended answers.

Yes, zwave can be added to scenes but not all zwave devices can be a controller in a scene. Insteon has more flexibility work it comes to scenes than zwave does do depending on what you want to accomplish and what you want to use, scenes may or may not be the best option

It would be much easier if you provided information in regards to light switches you were planning to use in your home as we could then tell you want you need to do to make a 3 way switch. 

[larryllix]

I would also be interested in the how and what for Zwave scenes. I understand Zwave devices have some type off scene connection between devices or common grouping method.

As @grossmdwas asking. How have people's experience, especially with the last method mentioned by @asbril, worked out? Is it fast enough etc..?

Edited October 24, 2021 by larryllix

[grossmd]

Understood. I have several overhead lights that were originally controlled by classic three way switch wiring but are now controlled by Insteon switches. Each light has 2-3 switches that are grouped together as a scene to control the individual light like “chandelier”   The switches do not share any wiring  anymore  

In  addition, several of those lights are then linked in larger scenes like “living room”

 

all works great with Insteon but I am concerned about supply issues as these switches seem to have limited life spans. At time of replacement can the above be done with a typical zwave, say GE enbrighten, using ISY scenes?

thanks for your patients. I am a hobbyist at best 

[Bumbershoot]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

I would also be interested in the how and what for Zwave scenes. I understand Zwave devices have some type off scene connection between devices or common grouping method.

As @grossmdwas asking. How have people's experience, especially with the last method mentioned by @asbril, worked out? Is it fast enough etc..?

Not exactly the information you're looking for, but here goes:

I don't use the Z-Wave scene feature, as my Z-Wave network isn't extensive enough to make use of them (yet), but I put a couple of Z-Wave switches into ISY scenes (along with Insteon switches), and they work just fine.  Not quite as fast as native Insteon lighting scenes, but they're becoming acceptably fast.  The fastest seem to be those that use the Z-Wave 700 series chip, specifically the Zoos Zen76 switches.  I've put these switches into scenes with Insteon switches, and they're quick (the performance seems identical to using an ISY program, FWIW).  I don't yet know how this will impact the "popcorn" effect produced by earlier Z-Wave lighting solutions, but I'm hopeful that this problem will be materially solved.

I'm speculating (and hoping), that with the ISY/Polisy Z-Wave enabled with a 700 series stick and utilizing 700 series switches (and/or repeaters), the combination will produce much faster Z-Wave performance.  My understanding is that a 700 series network is significantly improved for speed over earlier iterations.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Bumbershoot

[asbril]

20 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

'm speculating (and hoping), that with the ISY/Polisy Z-Wave enabled with a 700 series stick and utilizing 700 series switches, the combination will produce much faster Z-Wave performance.  My understanding is that a 700 series network is significantly improved for speed over earlier iterations.

I have the same hope and once we have the Zwave on Polisy, I will gradually change my switches to the 700 series. I probably have more than 40 Zwave switches in my home, so it will be a gradual and expensive experience.

[mmb]

19 minutes ago, asbril said:

I have the same hope and once we have the Zwave on Polisy, I will gradually change my switches to the 700 series. I probably have more than 40 Zwave switches in my home, so it will be a gradual and expensive experience.

Which Z-wave switches are you looking at?

Interesting, I didn't realize the Z-wave 700 spec incorporates a repeating (mesh?) technology.

[asbril]

30 minutes ago, mmb said:

Which Z-wave switches are you looking at?

Interesting, I didn't realize the Z-wave 700 spec incorporates a repeating (mesh?) technology.

1, Dont know yet. I generally prefer GE/Jasco or Homeseer, but keep an eye on Zooz.

2. Basically ALL non-battery Zwave devices include repeater

 

[grossmd]

2 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Not exactly the information you're looking for, but here goes:

I don't use the Z-Wave scene feature, as my Z-Wave network isn't extensive enough to make use of them (yet), but I put a couple of Z-Wave switches into ISY scenes (along with Insteon switches), and they work just fine.  Not quite as fast as native Insteon lighting scenes, but they're becoming acceptably fast.  The fastest seem to be those that use the Z-Wave 700 series chip, specifically the Zoos Zen76 switches.  I've put these switches into scenes with Insteon switches, and they're quick (the performance seems identical to using an ISY program, FWIW).  I don't yet know how this will impact the "popcorn" effect produced by earlier Z-Wave lighting solutions, but I'm hopeful that this problem will be materially solved.

I'm speculating (and hoping), that with the ISY/Polisy Z-Wave enabled with a 700 series stick and utilizing 700 series switches (and/or repeaters), the combination will produce much faster Z-Wave performance.  My understanding is that a 700 series network is significantly improved for speed over earlier iterations.

Thank you. That is helpful. Have not been paying attention to HA lately and was stunned when I realized that Insteon may be disappearing. Want to understand what I will need to do to keep my whole house system running. 

[asbril]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

I have the same hope and once we have the Zwave on Polisy, I will gradually change my switches to the 700 series. I probably have more than 40 Zwave switches in my home, so it will be a gradual and expensive experience.

Zwave is backwards compatible but will slow down to the oldest Zwave series. I still have some pre-500 devices. My assumption is (but would like confirmation) that the speed depends on the mesh route taken by a device. If I put a 700 series switch (once the dongle is 700) closest to the ISY-Polisy, and that device reaches the ISY wihout going through another mesh device,  I assume that it will work at 700 speed.

If my assumption is right, I should starts  replacing my older devices with 700 series, from close to the ISY, from the center of the circle gradually to the far end of he circle.

Am I right with my assumption ?

[Bumbershoot]

26 minutes ago, grossmd said:

Thank you. That is helpful. Have not been paying attention to HA lately and was stunned when I realized that Insteon may be disappearing. Want to understand what I will need to do to keep my whole house system running. 

If I were just starting with Z-Wave, I'd probably wait until the ISY/Polisy was released with Z-Wave (700 series), and buy only 700 series devices which are now coming to market.  This might be a very viable alternative to Insteon.

[Bumbershoot]

6 minutes ago, asbril said:

Am I right with my assumption ?

I'm not expert, but that's my assumption as well.

EDIT:  It looks like if you right click on the Z-Wave device in the device tree, and navigate to the context menu item, "Z-Wave | Show Information in Event Viewer | Network Details" then look at the "Last working route...", you can make a very good guess as to which devices are being used as repeaters for the device you've navigated to.  Those repeaters are the first ones to upgrade.

Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Last working route from ISY to Node  32 - ZW 032 Bench Light
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Node   7 - ZW 007 Siren
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Node   4 - ZW 004 Dimmer Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  32 - ZW 032 Bench Light has the following neighbors
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   4 - ZW 004 Dimmer Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   7 - ZW 007 Siren
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   8 - ZW 008 East Multilevel Sensor
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   9 - ZW 009 West Multilevel Sensor
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  10 - ZW 010 Water Cop
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  13 - Master Fan Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  24 - ZW 024 Schlage Door Lock
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  25 - ZW 025 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  26 - ZW 026 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  29 - Auto Door West
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  30 - Auto Door East
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  31 - ZW 031 Dimmer Switch
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Sun 10/24/2021 10:58:04 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Bumbershoot

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Not exactly the information you're looking for, but here goes:

I don't use the Z-Wave scene feature, as my Z-Wave network isn't extensive enough to make use of them (yet), but I put a couple of Z-Wave switches into ISY scenes (along with Insteon switches), and they work just fine.  Not quite as fast as native Insteon lighting scenes, but they're becoming acceptably fast.  The fastest seem to be those that use the Z-Wave 700 series chip, specifically the Zoos Zen76 switches.  I've put these switches into scenes with Insteon switches, and they're quick (the performance seems identical to using an ISY program, FWIW).  I don't yet know how this will impact the "popcorn" effect produced by earlier Z-Wave lighting solutions, but I'm hopeful that this problem will be materially solved.

I'm speculating (and hoping), that with the ISY/Polisy Z-Wave enabled with a 700 series stick and utilizing 700 series switches (and/or repeaters), the combination will produce much faster Z-Wave performance.  My understanding is that a 700 series network is significantly improved for speed over earlier iterations.

Thanks for that.

What I was really hoping for was information on direct comms between Zwave devices...mostly MSes and Switches/Dimmers.  If there is such a thing. I have only a dozen Zwave devices I have fallen into that I have never hooked up to a spare ISY with a series 300 board in it. 700 dongle is waiting to get plugged into my polisy once I can move over without having to go back. Insteon devices are very clumsy to move around with their absolute enrollment via physical buttons.

For now I will continue to use the Insteon items I own for lighting (with MSes) mostly, and slowly start to move over to WiFi and Zwave for other items. Insteon has been acting creepy and...well you know, so I don't want to ride the wave into the predictable abyss coming. 

I have about 40 WiFi devices already and other than needing a router with lots of NAT space (always hidden from public knowledge), and needing some custom bridge software to "group" lights into "scenes", WiFi works more reliably, and faster, than other protocols.  Now that the 802.11ax is becoming popular I would hope some of these WiFi devices would adopt it for better arbitration of devices in APs.