Insteon Replacement?

[apostolakisl]

6 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

I installed my Insteon network in 2015, and I have whole home surge protection as well.  I've never lost a single device or PLM, and I have spares of everything.  I'll likely migrate to Z-Wave as it improves, but so far, the Insteon lighting in my main living spaces has been beautiful. 

It was probably about 2015, maybe 2016 that I went through and upgraded to all dual band devices.  I have not had any failures aside from a single lamp linc.  Personally, I feel like they finally have a nice reliable product but they lack the business acumen.  Part of the problem, I think, is that they are "old".  Probably this Nokia branding thing is an attempt to shed that perception.  

[MrBill]

17 minutes ago, stillwater said:

6) I don't mean to say ANYTHING positive about Smartlabs.  Their neglect of the insteon product line --starting with eliminating colors and custom buttons -- is  execrable.  

This was one of the things that attracted me to the product line....

[lilyoyo1]

30 minutes ago, stillwater said:

 

6) I don't mean to say ANYTHING positive about Smartlabs.  Their neglect of the insteon product line --starting with eliminating colors and custom buttons -- is  execrable.  

 

 

For the end user it sucks but it was a good business decision. It would take years to sell them. They wrote off more product each year than they actually sold

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Update:

I made a scene with an INSTEON keypad button as controller and Hue lights as responder, using default: near instantaneous response from Hue.

Then, I made a program for color effects using another button: near instantaneous response.

With kind regards,
Michel

I have tried this in the past with mixed results. I don't know if my PLM was just missing keypad presses or if there was some other issue with the ISY994/Polisy combo (maybe LAN communication issues?). Maybe worth testing again.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

I'm totally with you.  I love that I just shoot a photo of the Insteon device address when I install it and then after completing however many installs, I just type in the addresses and "boom" (a small tribute to John Madden) I'm done.  The idea of scanning a device or being required to run back and forth pushing buttons I believe is an attempt to make things easier that backfired.  It simplifies things for a novice installing their first device and then locks the experienced person into a protocol that frustrates them.  And finally, ISY gives me a nice list of all my devices and their addresses which I periodically backup should any future issues arise.  

I still push buttons but only because I factory reset, test, and add prior to installation. I do wish zwave would come up with a way to add with addresses to so one doesn't have to run around lost install

The Nokia line adds the ability to scan a bar code

Edited December 30, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[apostolakisl]

18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I still push buttons but only because I factory reset, test, and add prior to installation. I do wish zwave would come up with a way to add with addresses to so one doesn't have to run around lost install

The Nokia line adds the ability to scan a bar code

I know everyone likes to factory reset, I have never done it.  I tell ISY to delete all links upon adding and that has never failed me.  But anyway, factory reset during install, while it is pressing a button, is a separate act from linking it so there isn't any running around between computers and devices.  Scanning a code is a nice option to have when you have a phone based linking setup.  Maybe a future UD Mobile feature.  But I would still want a code so that I can save it in a list and not ever have to remove screws to get to the barcode should I need to unlink/relink.  For whatever reason, I have had ISY get links all crossed up where the only fix is to delete and re-add it. 

[randyth]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:57 AM, stillwater said:

7)) I am looking at Shelly devices.    Re input -- some time back someone in the forums showed a prototype of a touch screen on a microcontroller that would be suitable.   Thinks have come a long way since then and it looks like a 3-color e-inc display with a touch screen and wifi could fit in an outlet box.  

I went down the Shelly rabbit hole a while back. I have almost 10 of the first-generation Shellys installed for things like my gas fireplace, house vent, bathroom fans, and so on. While I am not unhappy with them, I do have some caveats:

• They have to be power cycled if they lose Wi-Fi. My Wi-Fi/Internet is pretty solid, but it does drop out now and then (I blame Comcast). This is a real pain, especially if you install something like a Shelly 1 inside a switchbox. Your luck here may be better.
• You're not going to save any money building your own "smart" switches with Shelly when compared with an off-the-shelf Z-Wave switch.
• None of the newer Shelly devices are UL certified.

[Michel Kohanim]

5 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Fantastic! Did these results occur on Polisy ISY? With migrated data?

Yes. And, it's ready for testing: 

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Based on my own experimentations, the best performance is INSTEON controller (event) to WiFi (or MQTT) responder. Worst response time is from INSTEON to Z-Wave. All those back-and-forth little transmissions for Z-Wave commands are performance killers. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[stillwater]

I am just beginning to wrap my head around "insteon replacement" .  Michel's mention of using insteon button pushes to control other things makes me wonder:   Does UDI (presumably in polisy) have plans for something (groups?) equivalent to Insteon scenes can be created and modified in a user friendly way  -- and turned off/on or even dimmed by an appropriate button push?  Or is this more Home Assistant territory?   As I said I am just beginning to think beyond Insteon...   Obviously if the scenes were managed at the ISY or POLISY level then individual Insteon and non-Insteon devices could be included. 

Apologies if this is something that is already included (e.g. if non-insteon nodes can already be added to insteon scenes in the ISY...  )   [I only have one non-insteon node that is controlled by ISY and that is a Sauna so that does not appear in groups with other devices. )   I do use ISY to communicate with my HVAC automation (ENV from Climate Automation Systems) so that for example the heat does not go on if the (motorized) clerestory windows are open, and the HVAC system turns on the bathroom exhaust fans based on humidity, because the temp/humidity sensors are all on the HVAC system and not on ISY....  

[stillwater]

Thanks @randyth

I wasn't looking to save money compared to zwave.  (1) I won't necessarily have a critical mass for zwave devices and (2) some of my applications are things that aren't directly switched. (Like gutter heat tape).     Also the shelly i3/i4 devices can connect to low voltage switches if I can find or construct ones that look nice.   I am used to power failures so turning off breakers to power cycle shellies doesn't bother me so long as it isn't often.  Also I won't be using shelly cloud so I don't think I'll be affected by my internet provider.   My wifi is all Unifi APs  and there are no interfering signals on 2.4 ghz so I am hopeful things might work well.  I assume UL certification will come at some point but thanks for raising that. 

[MrBill]

@stillwater All of version 5 firmware allows you to add other devices that exist as nodes to scenes.  That works on a 994, no need to wait til you migrate the ISY to polisy.

[MrBill]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

For the end user it sucks but it was a good business decision. It would take years to sell them. They wrote off more product each year than they actually sold

I'll disagree.  Yes bad management, but the problem was never understand EOQ's and finding suppliers that can fill orders at those levels.

[lilyoyo1]

57 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I'll disagree.  Yes bad management, but the problem was never understand EOQ's and finding suppliers that can fill orders at those levels.

That could be true but as slow as they sold it really didn't matter

[stillwater]

Thanks @MrBill   I guess I knew that "All of version 5 firmware allows you to add other devices that exist as nodes to scenes."   

I just haven't ever done scenes with more than one type of responder I guess.  Maybe I haven't even done scenes with more than one responder node.  I guess I thought scenes were in the Insteon devices and PLM and the ISY sort of just manipulated them from the outside.   Realizing how ignorant I am really!  I'll go study!  

[larryllix]

12 hours ago, stillwater said:

Thanks @MrBill   I guess I knew that "All of version 5 firmware allows you to add other devices that exist as nodes to scenes."   

I just haven't ever done scenes with more than one type of responder I guess.  Maybe I haven't even done scenes with more than one responder node.  I guess I thought scenes were in the Insteon devices and PLM and the ISY sort of just manipulated them from the outside.   Realizing how ignorant I am really!  I'll go study!  

"scene" has become a confused term lately. Insteon scenes are inside the Insteon devices, exactly  as you posted. The other types of scenes are fabricated inside ISY, or elsewhere, and do not function the same, needing a central controller or hub.

Edited December 31, 2021 by larryllix

[randyth]

18 hours ago, stillwater said:

Thanks @randyth

I wasn't looking to save money compared to zwave.  (1) I won't necessarily have a critical mass for zwave devices and (2) some of my applications are things that aren't directly switched. (Like gutter heat tape).     Also the shelly i3/i4 devices can connect to low voltage switches if I can find or construct ones that look nice.   I am used to power failures so turning off breakers to power cycle shellies doesn't bother me so long as it isn't often.  Also I won't be using shelly cloud so I don't think I'll be affected by my internet provider.   My wifi is all Unifi APs  and there are no interfering signals on 2.4 ghz so I am hopeful things might work well.  I assume UL certification will come at some point but thanks for raising that. 

I don't use Shelly's Cloud either, but avoiding the cloud doesn't help with the need to power cycle these devices now and then. It's probably only once every three months on average for my household, which didn't seem too bad at first but has slowly become quite annoying. I have several similar IoT devices (like an MHCOZY for my doorbell) that have never needed to be power-cycled to reconnect to my LAN. There are many comments about this problem on Shelly's Facebook Support group.

I do love their i3 and i4 devices. Using an i3 I turned an antique knife switch into a (safe low-voltage) wall switch for one of my lights. It simply sends a REST command to my ISY which turns on a LampLinc. Very cool.

[stillwater]

Thanks @randyth Thanks for the mention of the facebook support group for Shelly.   Perhaps the wifi  connectivity issue will turn out to be something Shelly can eventually fix in firmware.  Regarding another possibly related issue that shows up in that group:  I don't know but imagine that MQTT with a broker might be better at handling larger numbers of devices with contention issues than just REST http  calls. 

@MrBilland @larryllix your comments are making me consider how much more important central controller reliability and RTOS  capabilities become in the absence of insteon's (or equivalent's) local storage of scenes etc.   @Michel Kohanimit occurs to me that UDI should clarify for us more casual consumers what I assume are the advantages of POLISY are over ISY994i in this regard ( Does Polisy get rid of the SD card and its issues?   Is the RTOS more capable?  Are the comms better? etc.) .  It makes me think that purpose-built and updated systems such as UDI supplies might have advantages over more home-grown and user-maintained systems like Home Assistant on a Raspberry PI.  

[Michel Kohanim]

@stillwater,

Some highlights will hopefully help:

1. Polisy is much much more powerful: 994 ran at 132Mhz on a single core, Polisy is running Quad cores at 1Ghz each. A simple comparison: downloading the Admin Console on https from Polisy is faster than downloading the Admin Console on http on 994
2. No more SD card. Everything is moved to SSD 
3. Operating system is not RTOS. It's a minimized and refined version of FreeBSD. And, therefore, unlike 994, many other things/services can be integrated and much more freedom to support things
4. We manage the build for the OS and packages. You don't have to go download and install anything on your own. And, maintaining it is becoming easier with each update
5. Unlike all other hubs out there, Polisy comes with its own TPM (Trusted Platform Module) which adds one more layer of security. Although we are not using it fully, but the goal is that the TPM will become the hardware trust store so you can rest assured that your credentials and certificates are only accessible within Polisy and no one can get to them
5. And, of course, isy and polyglot can run on the same box. So, program execution and communications with node servers is much faster

With kind regards,
Michel

[stillwater]

@Michel Kohanim  Thanks this does sound like real progress.  

[smokegrub]

Pardon my obvious lack of technical savvy but is it possible for a node server to be developed that would replace  the need for the Insteon PLM?

[larryllix]

38 minutes ago, smokegrub said:

Pardon my obvious lack of technical savvy but is it possible for a node server to be developed that would replace  the need for the Insteon PLM?

No. ...but polisy can accept the USB PLM, or the Insteon USB PLM stick (dongle) or the serial port PLM (still).

The Power Line Modem is a piece of hardware that operates as a bridge from computereez (US accent ) bits and bytes, to powerline and RF signals that can be transmitted over your house wiring. (Think old FAX or Modem signals before the connection = warbling whistle sounds)

[stillwater]

Some time back in one of the forums someone posted about the radio part of the Insteon transmission protocol being susceptible to being accessed (transmit as well as receive)  via software-defined radio.  Then the rest of the processing and memory could be emulated in a computer like polisy or raspberry PI.  If fine timing was required that could be done via the PIO on a Raspberry Pi Pico (or the $1 RP2040 chip at its heart.)  Whether this would violate Smartlabs IP i have no idea but maybe if Smartlabs goes out of business there will no one to defend Insteon IP.  I assume but don't know that with all the dual-band devices around they would repeat the radio signal from the this PLM-replacement onto the powerline.   The device wouldn't need UL approval because it would not be connected to the powerline.  Whether it would need separate FCC approval would (I guess but don't know) depend on the radio used.   

[stillwater]

Maybe the post I mentioned is actually about receive-only.  But TX could be worked out if legal issues could be resolved.  

This is the thread  I was thinking of:

 

[PLCGuy]

On 12/27/2021 at 5:10 AM, elvisimprsntr said:

6. Or just dump smart controls altogether and install dumb switches?

Hi everyone

It has been over five years since I’ve spent much time on this forum. The reason wasn’t that I did not love the forum, but rather that my mashup of Z-Wave, Insteon and Elk, all glued together by a trusty ISY-994, has worked well enough to keep the lights on, the doors locked, the cistern full and my wife happy. And so I haven’t needed to yell for help much and got distracted with other forums on things not going so well in my life, like woodworking and bicycle repairs. 

Yet just before Christmas a “dumb incandescent light bulb” controlled a “dumb switch” burned out, throwing my home automation strategy into chaos and causing to me to come running back.  Because when I screwed that dumb replacement bulb into the socket, the 20 year old Leviton dimmer let me know it didn’t like LED bulbs by refusing to turn the light off.

A quick search of the Internet to solve the issue taught me three things. First, all bulbs are LED now. Second, dumb switches, at least when they’re dimming LED bulbs, are just about as expensive as smart ones. Finally, as this topic makes it painfully clear, Insteon smart switches are as rare as home COVID tests these days. Going to the Aartech site and seeing nothing but a blank page when I searched for In-stock Insteon Products left me in shock. Soon I was heading to this forum and stumbling onto this very timely discussion. 

Which brings me to my first point. I don’t think there’s any going back to dumb switches unless you like spending almost the same amount of money for limited functionality. My family has come to expect that room lights come on auto-magically when they come home late at night, that any light can be set for different moods and the all door deadbolts can be locked while lying in bed. Anything less just won’t cut it.  

Second, the Z-wave and Insteon devices I installed almost a decade ago have been pretty darn reliable. Yes early Z-Wave configuration was rough and Insteon devices were inconsistent, but once the system was stable it worked just as reliably as the dumb devices in the house (apart from the regular failures of the 2413S PLMs) And the ISY-994 was bullet proof - I doubt that I have any other electric device in this house, not even the toaster, that is still working after a decade of 7x24 continuous use.

So what am I going to do? First I’m going to buy a Polisy with Z-Wave as soon as it becomes available and give the old ISY the role of backup goalie in our house. It deserves a good retirement.  Second I will slowly migrate away from Insteon to Z-wave Plus as devices expire over the next 5 years.  I’ll save save a few Insteon switches specifically for the outbuildings, where Z-Wave probably just won’t ever reach. Finally I ordered a pile of capacitors for the PLMs sitting in the box in my shop marked “NFG” -that way I’ll have a supply of PLMs that will probably outlast me. 
 

It’s too bad that the management at SmartLabs was really not smart at all and let a good technology die. But Z-wave seems to be maturing and filling that gap. And as long as we have Michael and team cranking out controllers, we have a very easy long term migration path ahead of us. 
 

Regards

Eric B