alternative switch to insteon, but aesthetically pleasing and works with Polisy

[someguy]

I am looking into future replacements for Insteon switches as it seems like they are hard to come by.  hopefully this is temporary.  if it is temporary, i would not change to another switch, by the way.

I'm looking for a switch that looks nice and has an (light) almond color option.  It would need to work WELL with Polisy!

I've seen these: 

Kasa Switch

and these: 

Wemo

 

I've been reading about the "Thread" and "Matter" protocols and I'd like to try to future-proof (as much as possible) my purchases.  

(I suspect this has been discussed elsewhere in this forum, and if it has, I apologize.)

[lilyoyo1]

See Kasa Nodeserver subforum for more information about Kasa devices.

[upstatemike]

Personally I'm not a fan of push on/push off toggle switches. I think normal top on/bottom off rockers (like Insteon) look nicer, are more intuitive to use, and offer more programming options because they can support things like "multi-tap", "hold to dim/brighten", etc. I would also think about scalability before selecting Wi-Fi based switches. Everybody has different priorities so make sure these tick all the boxes for yours before you decide which way to go.

[someguy]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:15 PM, upstatemike said:

Personally I'm not a fan of push on/push off toggle switches. I think normal top on/bottom off rockers (like Insteon) look nicer, are more intuitive to use, and offer more programming options because they can support things like "multi-tap", "hold to dim/brighten", etc. I would also think about scalability before selecting Wi-Fi based switches. Everybody has different priorities so make sure these tick all the boxes for yours before you decide which way to go.

 

@upstatemike I'm not sure, specifically, what you mean by "think(ing) about scalability before selecting wifi based switches"?  i just looked up my eero router/access points and each point can handle 128 devices, but best results are with 30 or less per access point.   for reference, i currently have a few less than 50 devices on my network but most of them are hard-wired.    based upon this information, would you suggest I veer away from wifi based switches?  if so, what would you suggest I look at?

Thank you for your time and thoughts.  

[upstatemike]

6 hours ago, someguy said:

 

@upstatemike I'm not sure, specifically, what you mean by "think(ing) about scalability before selecting wifi based switches"?  i just looked up my eero router/access points and each point can handle 128 devices, but best results are with 30 or less per access point.   for reference, i currently have a few less than 50 devices on my network but most of them are hard-wired.    based upon this information, would you suggest I veer away from wifi based switches?  if so, what would you suggest I look at?

Thank you for your time and thoughts.  

Wi-Fi has a number of points where scalability can affect the system:

As you point out there is the concern about capacity of each Access Point both in the number of devices and the load they represent. For example how many wireless security cameras are on the same AP? Also things like Amazon Echos, PCs doing Zoom calls etc.

Next is the capacity of the router (or initial maesh point that is acting as the router). I recently had to upgrade my router not because I exceeded any device count limits but because the CPU just wasn't up to handling 70+ wireless devices plus the same number of wired ones.

Next concern is the capacity limits Wi-Fi manufacturers place on their own products. Lifx for example recommends you stay below 25 bulbs or something. I assume that limit relates to how they communicate to a controller or the cloud but whatever the reason I have seen issues when I go beyond that number so I pay attention to what limits a manufacturer publishes.

Finally, at least for me, is just the number of devices that would be added if I moved over 100 Insteon devices to Wi-Fi. If I am already struggling with IP address space or DHCP reservation limits then I can't see where it is practical to put too much more on the LAN. I don't want to become a full time netwok administrator getting clever with subnetting, VLans, and broadcast domains just to keep my light switches working reliably.

Everybody's situation is different and none of this may apply to you but now is the time to think it through rather than after it is all installed.

[someguy]

@upstatemikewow!  Thank you for your time in helping me with these ideas.  food for thought, for sure.  perhaps going to z-wave isn't such a bad idea.  

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, someguy said:

@upstatemikewow!  Thank you for your time in helping me with these ideas.  food for thought, for sure.  perhaps going to z-wave isn't such a bad idea.  

The fact that I am skeptical of Wi-Fi as a Home Automtion protocol doesn't mean I am endorsing Z-Wave. I have a small Z-Wave test setup (basically a single room with about 20 Z-Wave devices) and I am having my share of concerns there as well. There is no perfect answer so you have to understand the faults of each protocal and decide if you can live with them or not.

If your switch count is low the Wi-Fi switches might be a better option because:

No mesh infrastructure to build out

Instant integration with Alexa or other voice assistants

Instant integration with IFTTT and/or Tuya

Low cost so low risk... you can always swap it all out in 3 or 4 years if a better option comes on the market

Low time commitment. You can pop them in and get on with your life without spending more time researching stuff or learning a new protocol or building out a mesh.

Lots of cheap compatible devices available.

Easy to migrate at whatever pace you want using ISY to keep old and new stuff working together as you go.

Sorry to give mixed signals but if there was a clear cut obvious answer most of the threads on this forum would only be 1 or 2 posts long. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by upstatemike

[dbwarner5]

Have you seen this very long post? 

 

My conclusion after reading all of it is to go with Lutron RA2/3 and then hope / barter/ influence/pay @bpwwer to add a Nodeserver for this in PG3.   It seems like Lutron is the best non-dealer, installable system out there right now, alleviating all the wifi and zwave concerns above, but would need to combine it with the power of the IoP to have it become a go-to solution while the future of Insteon gets sorted. 

[lilyoyo1]

16 minutes ago, dbwarner5 said:

Have you seen this very long post? 

 

My conclusion after reading all of it is to go with Lutron RA2/3 and then hope / barter/ influence/pay @bpwwer to add a Nodeserver for this in PG3.   It seems like Lutron is the best non-dealer, installable system out there right now, alleviating all the wifi and zwave concerns above, but would need to combine it with the power of the IoP to have it become a go-to solution while the future of Insteon gets sorted. 

The problem isnt bpwwer not wanting to create a nodeserver. It's lutron releasing the API for that to happen. Michel has stated a few times they are working on getting access

[dbwarner5]

10 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The problem isnt bpwwer not wanting to create a nodeserver. It's lutron releasing the API for that to happen. Michel has stated a few times they are working on getting access

But if they have a PG2 NS, (ST-RadioRA2) dont they have the API? https://github.com/simplextech/udi-poly-lutron-st-radiora2.git

Also, I should have copied @simplextech as he is the developer. As Insteons fate stays unclear, Lutron is probably the best alternative, if tied to an IoP. Thanks.

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, dbwarner5 said:

But if they have a PG2 NS, (ST-RadioRA2) dont they have the API? https://github.com/simplextech/udi-poly-lutron-st-radiora2.git

Also, I should have copied @simplextech as he is the developer. As Insteons fate stays unclear, Lutron is probably the best alternative, if tied to an IoP. Thanks.

There is a big...huge...major change in how integration works from RR2 and the new RR3.

It's not going to be simple or easy and Lutron isn't going to just give anyone the keys to be able to integrate.  I know RTI has a driver now, and I think the other major players do as well.  I know Lutron is not going to hand out keys or allow any kind of "Open Source" integration.  That's not happening and they have said so.

[Jimbo.Automates]

The library used by https://github.com/timekillerj/udi-poly-lutroncaseta
Is figuring out how to make it work https://github.com/gurumitts/pylutron-caseta/pull/90
But of course that's not officially endorsed so could break at any point. But it's been perfect for my blinds for a couple years.

I considered moving to RA3 while remodeling our little lake house but couldn't justify the cost to replace a working system. I'll probably regret that someday.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[jec6613]

By far the best alternative I've found: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/brands/decora-smart and Z-Wave do play well with Polisy.  Lutron make better dimmers, but Leviton has a full product stack of coordinating products, including the weird ones (e.g. humidity sensing fan controllers and the like).

Avoid Wi-Fi like the plague for home automation if you have another workable alternative.  With a WiFi device, it's on your network and needs to be getting security updates.  For some things, this means a 10 year life, for others it's 5 or less.

Edited February 21, 2022 by jec6613

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, jec6613 said:

By far the best alternative I've found: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/brands/decora-smart and Z-Wave do play well with Polisy.  Lutron make better dimmers, but Leviton has a full product stack of coordinating products, including the weird ones.

Avoid Wi-Fi like the plague for home automation if you have another workable alternative.  With a WiFi device, it's on your network and needs to be getting security updates.  For some things, this means a 10 year life, for others it's 5 or less.

I know you are mainly talking about Z-Wave here but the link also includes some interesting information about Levition Gen2 Wi-Fi. The thing that caught my eye is that Levition has Wi-Fi scene controllers/keypads (that can be engraved) as well as companion switches that do not need traveller wires... both uncommon in Wi-Fi based products. It looks like they have a cloud service to make this work (sort of a US based Tuya?) but I wonder how well it works?

Do local associations between companions or keypads and their linked switches stop working if your Internet connection is down? How reliable is the cloud service?

Is there an API to link into ISY or Hue to control other things from the keypads?

The "Decora Smart" label is used as an umbrella for Wi-Fi, Z-Wave, and Zigbee based automation products, does that mean their app is providing a bridge across the technologies so you can mix them?

[dbwarner5]

12 hours ago, simplextech said:

There is a big...huge...major change in how integration works from RR2 and the new RR3.

It's not going to be simple or easy and Lutron isn't going to just give anyone the keys to be able to integrate.  I know RTI has a driver now, and I think the other major players do as well.  I know Lutron is not going to hand out keys or allow any kind of "Open Source" integration.  That's not happening and they have said so.

Thanks. That’s a bummer as i really see this as a high end future for IoP. UDI’s native tie to Insteon / zwave, based on current and past Smartlabs incompetence is a threat to new installations / use. 

Question: my understanding from previous posts is that RA2 can be run on the new RA3 controller from Lutron. If i am running RA2 on the new controller, will the PG2 Nodeserver work with that setup? Or only with the RA2 controller? 

I am asking as i am trying to advise a friend who is ready to make his home automated as to what to do. I really want to encourage him to get IoP, but if there isnt a whole house switch system that works, then it isnt a realistic option. 

Any thoughts are welcome. (Possibly the wrong thread for this conversation) @Michel Kohanim

Thanks.

Edited February 21, 2022 by dbwarner5

[simplextech]

7 minutes ago, dbwarner5 said:

Question: my understanding from previous posts is that RA2 can be run on the new RA3 controller from Lutron. If i am running RA2 on the new controller, will the PG2 Nodeserver work with that setup? Or only with the RA2 controller? 

 

RA2 devices (most of them) are supported on the RA3 main repeater.  The PG2 Nodeserver only works with the RA2 Main repeater. 

At this point in time if someone is on the fence I would buy Radio Ra 2 having the option to upgrade the main repeater to RA3 in the future.  That is unless you really must have the Sunnata devices which only work with RA3.

Yet if you really must have RA3 and this is a completely new setup and you have the budget then I'm going to say go with RTI Control but that's just me and likely frowned upon here.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, dbwarner5 said:

Thanks. That’s a bummer as i really see this as a high end future for IoP. UDI’s native tie to Insteon / zwave, based on current and past Smartlabs incompetence is a threat to new installations / use. 

Question: my understanding from previous posts is that RA2 can be run on the new RA3 controller from Lutron. If i am running RA2 on the new controller, will the PG2 Nodeserver work with that setup? Or only with the RA2 controller? 

I am asking as i am trying to advise a friend who is ready to make his home automated as to what to do. I really want to encourage him to get IoP, but if there isnt a whole house switch system that works, then it isnt a realistic option. 

Any thoughts are welcome. (Possibly the wrong thread for this conversation)

Thanks.

The question goes Ina circle every few days. No one can answer what to use. I don't see things with IOP as being insteon vs zwave, vs wifi, vs hue. etc. I see it as using the best devices for any given situation at that moment. 

 If he uses the RA3  processor, he'll need to use the new API period. If he wants ra2 integrated with IOP then he needs to use the Ra2 processor. 

If IOP did support Ra3, I'd still use zwave outlets and sensors with the system along with my hue bulbs. I may switch my master bathroom sensor out to their 360 version but for the most part, I don't need everything to come from them.

The best system for your friend still comes down to his needs. While i love supporting udi and they'll always be my first choice, my recommendation is still based on a person's needs. 

Even with my company, now that ra3 is out, I'll probably use them more than i do C4. The reason being, most clients only need what Ra3 offers. The fact that i can add it to a C4 system is bonus should their needs ever change. Reality is, most do not want to pay for whole house automation not desire complicated programming. They want app and voice control mixed with a few timers.

Ra3 allows me to give them what they desire. If IOP supports it then there's a low cost application for clients as well to add more smarts to the system vs overpaying for C4 just for a little extra logic

 

[jec6613]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I know you are mainly talking about Z-Wave here but the link also includes some interesting information about Levition Gen2 Wi-Fi. The thing that caught my eye is that Levition has Wi-Fi scene controllers/keypads (that can be engraved) as well as companion switches that do not need traveller wires... both uncommon in Wi-Fi based products. It looks like they have a cloud service to make this work (sort of a US based Tuya?) but I wonder how well it works?

Do local associations between companions or keypads and their linked switches stop working if your Internet connection is down? How reliable is the cloud service?

Is there an API to link into ISY or Hue to control other things from the keypads?

The "Decora Smart" label is used as an umbrella for Wi-Fi, Z-Wave, and Zigbee based automation products, does that mean their app is providing a bridge across the technologies so you can mix them?

Decora Smart is their umbrella brand for all devices they sell with any integration, .  In truth, it's just smart bits bolted on to their, "Digital Dimmer" product for the most part, and uses many of the same accessories - and of note is the same dimmer circuitry used in the Insteon dimmers.  This is definitely a premium product.

Their app is for Wi-Fi only, and they've committed to relatively long term support of these devices (10+ years) - advantage of having a big company behind such things.  It does permit integration via a LAN API, to at least some extent, as that's how the Schlage integration works so a Schlage WiFi door lock can push commands to lights to turn them on or off, as well as the HomeKit integration.  To date, however, their integrations are rather limited as this is a newer product stack than most, and they are holding a very high quality bar.  As for their cloud service - so far it's been quite reliable.

The ZigBee and Z-Wave are for bring your own controller (e.g. ISY and Smartthings).  They're sold as companion products to stand-alone automation systems.

One other important note: Insteon white is Leviton white, at least for the last 10-ish years.  Legrand and Lutron's whites are not the same color, so this permits mixing and matching of Insteon and Leviton equipment as appropriate.  This lets you replace for Z-Wave as time goes on without a huge shock of changing interface - the main difference is that there are dedicated dimmer controls on the side, in leiu of the press and hold.

And you're correct, they offer compatible companion switches both with and without traveler wires.  Especially useful given the current lack of any availability of 3-way Decora switches in the US outside of electric supply houses.

Edited February 21, 2022 by jec6613

[upstatemike]

Sounds like Leviton is going to push Wi-Fi as their premium smart home strategy. I wonder how they address scalability? Do they have a an upper limit to Decora Smart Wi-Fi devices in the app? How much support are they going to provide when an integrator fills a house with 70+ switches and a couple of dozen Amazon Echos, and a whole house Sonos system, and motion sensors, thermostats, leak detctors, and door sensors? They can easily bump up against default 253 address limits and consumer router CPU capacity constraints. Will they get deep into helping to manage huge blocks of DHCP reserved addresses and deploying multiple Wireless Access Points to make it all work reliably?

[jec6613]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Sounds like Leviton is going to push Wi-Fi as their premium smart home strategy. I wonder how they address scalability? Do they have a an upper limit to Decora Smart Wi-Fi devices in the app? How much support are they going to provide when an integrator fills a house with 70+ switches and a couple of dozen Amazon Echos, and a whole house Sonos system, and motion sensors, thermostats, leak detctors, and door sensors? They can easily bump up against default 253 address limits and consumer router CPU capacity constraints. Will they get deep into helping to manage huge blocks of DHCP reserved addresses and deploying multiple Wireless Access Points to make it all work reliably?

Wi-Fi is their smart home strategy for individual end-users.  ZigBee and Z-Wave are for larger installs and less marketed, by and large - though Z-Wave also hits a similar device limit as a standard /24 CIDR block.

[lilyoyo1]

16 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Sounds like Leviton is going to push Wi-Fi as their premium smart home strategy. I wonder how they address scalability? Do they have a an upper limit to Decora Smart Wi-Fi devices in the app? How much support are they going to provide when an integrator fills a house with 70+ switches and a couple of dozen Amazon Echos, and a whole house Sonos system, and motion sensors, thermostats, leak detctors, and door sensors? They can easily bump up against default 253 address limits and consumer router CPU capacity constraints. Will they get deep into helping to manage huge blocks of DHCP reserved addresses and deploying multiple Wireless Access Points to make it all work reliably?

I don't foresee any installer worth something installing a whole home setup with wifi based switches/dimmers. There may be specific use cases for a couple of switches but not an investment level installation.

Wifi will be relegated to those looking for cheap devices for specific needs or unsuspecting consumers

[dbwarner5]

4 hours ago, simplextech said:

RA2 devices (most of them) are supported on the RA3 main repeater.  The PG2 Nodeserver only works with the RA2 Main repeater.

That is where I am at, with the assumption that the RA2 Nodeserver on PG2 will be ported to PG3. Thanks

[simplextech]

2 hours ago, dbwarner5 said:

with the assumption that the RA2 Nodeserver on PG2 will be ported to PG3. Thanks

As with anything assumptions are bad.  I've looked at porting it directly to PG3 however the Nodejs interface is lagging behind in development.  Not unexpected as the current PG3 development and all interfaces is a one-man show who has way to much on his plate.  I've started investigating going back to the Python interface and working on porting one of my simpler nodeservers back to Python on PG3.  As this work continues I'll have a better idea of how much time it will take to move the larger more complex nodeservers like the Lutron.

[brians]

I am not impressed with Leviton Z-Wave switches... .first of all they do not support instant status and in ISY you must write a custom query on hail for each switch. Fortunately I only have three of these installed.

The Jasco are much better, smaller depth for boxes, and easier to wire because can interchange the hot and load wires.

Unfortunately, none of these have the "feel" of an Insteon paddle switch... the Leviton feel very hollow and the paddle is a bit narrower than I am used to. The Jasco are more solid but you have to push harder on them - there is no good spongy feeling like Insteon has... well except Insteon keypads.

I like just walking in a room and tapping the paddle, and Insteon allows me to do this... with Jasco and others you have to hit them pretty hard. I would like to find a  Z-Wave switch built similar to Insteon.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bumbershoot]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:42 PM, brians said:

I would like to find a  Z-Wave switch built similar to Insteon.

The tactile feedback of these switches isn't exactly like Insteon switches, but it isn't bad.  I like the feel of these better than either Homeseer or Jasco.

https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-700-series-z-wave-plus-s2-dimmer-switch-zen77