What does the crystal ball say

[ryarber]

I know Michel is bound by an NDA and can’t discuss. 

I am assuming that there is no new PLM in the foreseeable future. And there likely won’t be unless someone buys the license for the patents. 

Are these patents being bound up by Nokia? Are there other bidders out there that want to run with the technology? Are we only relegated to used equipment from eBay if we want to continue to use Insteon?

I have no plans to move to z wave in my home. Other than my old Insteon icon switches, my switches have been very reliable and I can see me staying with Insteon for many years to come. I have mostly switchlinc, outdoor outlets, and appliance modules now. But I probably will need to replace a PLM from time to time. 

Will polisy continue to support Insteon?

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, ryarber said:

I know Michel is bound by an NDA and can’t discuss. 

I am assuming that there is no new PLM in the foreseeable future. And there likely won’t be unless someone buys the license for the patents. 

Are these patents being bound up by Nokia? Are there other bidders out there that want to run with the technology? Are we only relegated to used equipment from eBay if we want to continue to use Insteon?

I have no plans to move to z wave in my home. Other than my old Insteon icon switches, my switches have been very reliable and I can see me staying with Insteon for many years to come. I have mostly switchlinc, outdoor outlets, and appliance modules now. But I probably will need to replace a PLM from time to time. 

Will polisy continue to support Insteon?

Nokia does not own insteon patents. Smartlabs owns the patents. The Nokia name was only licensed for their new product line. 

Michel has already stated he's bound by a NDA so he wouldn't be able to name any other companies and none has spoken up so anything in the future would be up to them and unknown to anyone outside the winnimg bidder. 

Yes, insteon will continue to be supported by polisy. It already supports it so i highly doubt UDI would make an about face and remove it after investing so much time and effort to add it. 5-10 years from now as the landscape changes, who's to say

[ryarber]

Very true. With the advent of Matter, who knows what even z wave will look like in 5 years. Good to hear that UD is incorporating Matter into future devices. 

Has anyone heard if Ubiquity is incorporating Matter into their line of access points and controllers?

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, ryarber said:

Very true. With the advent of Matter, who knows what even z wave will look like in 5 years. Good to hear that UD is incorporating Matter into future devices. 

Has anyone heard if Ubiquity is incorporating Matter into their line of access points and controllers?

You can check on their forum. They haven't announced anything to my knowledge but matter isn't on my roadmap right now

[Brian H]

I would not count on any PLM in the near future. Even is someone gets the patents and manufacturing rights.

With the world wide parts shortages. I have seen some common parts on the US vendor sites. With a 3/4 to one year lead time.

[upstatemike]

26 minutes ago, ryarber said:

Very true. With the advent of Matter, who knows what even z wave will look like in 5 years. Good to hear that UD is incorporating Matter into future devices. 

Has anyone heard if Ubiquity is incorporating Matter into their line of access points and controllers?

If you are concerned about how Matter will impact the future of Home Automation you might want to try this exercise:

Make a list of the primary problems in automation today; Popcorn effect, 2.4GHz overcrowding, lack of enforcement to standardize implementation of advanced features, etc. Then go through all the announcements related to Matter to see how many of those problems will get resolved when Matter becomes available (spoiler alert, it is a very low number). Then decide if Matter is worth worrying about or not.

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If you are concerned about how Matter will impact the future of Home Automation you might want to try this exercise:

Make a list of the primary problems in automation today; Popcorn effect, 2.4GHz overcrowding, lack of enforcement to standardize implementation of advanced features, etc. Then go through all the announcements related to Matter to see how many of those problems will get resolved when Matter becomes available (spoiler alert, it is a very low number). Then decide if Matter is worth worrying about or not.

If anything, I can see it stifle innovation. Why work to build a unique ecosystem when someone can just let Google, Amazon, and Crapple do the work

Edited June 6, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[ryarber]

30 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If you are concerned about how Matter will impact the future of Home Automation you might want to try this exercise:

Make a list of the primary problems in automation today; Popcorn effect, 2.4GHz overcrowding, lack of enforcement to standardize implementation of advanced features, etc. Then go through all the announcements related to Matter to see how many of those problems will get resolved when Matter becomes available (spoiler alert, it is a very low number). Then decide if Matter is worth worrying about or not.

But the gravitational force pulling developers to an “all inclusive” standard will be a lot to overcome.

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, ryarber said:

But the gravitational force pulling developers to an “all inclusive” standard will be a lot to overcome.

 

Matter really doesn't matter at this point.  Wait to see how consumers vote with their checkbooks.  The jury is still out.

[ryarber]

All true, but the combined weight of Apple, Google, Samsung, Amazon give it a very good head start. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, ryarber said:

All true, but the combined weight of Apple, Google, Samsung, Amazon give it a very good head start. 

Not necessarily. You can end up being stuck with what they want you to have vs whats actually possible

[danncas]

So with out a PLM we are dead in the water.  Polisy or Issy

[Techman]

For now, both the Polisy and the ISY support Z-wave. It's possible, but not certain, that someone, hopefully UDI, will be able to resurrect the PLM, we probably won't know until later this year.

[ryarber]

53 minutes ago, danncas said:

So with out a PLM we are dead in the water.  Polisy or Issy

They’re also talking about the old Insteon Hub being a possible replacement. I’m assuming a way to hack the old device to turn it into a New hub type device. No specifics have been given that I’ve seen.

[Michel Kohanim]

Here are some things that are not under NDA:

1. We cannot get parts to build our own version of PLM

2. Thanks to a couple of very bright engineers at SmartHome, we can make Nokia Hubs into PLMs. So, if we can buy Nokia Hubs from the person who buys SmartHome, then we should be set

3. If anyone can figure out how to make Hub II (smaller boxes) into PLMs, that would be a good solution too

4. We are still pursuing PLM Pro 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Brian H]

25 minutes ago, ryarber said:

They’re also talking about the old Insteon Hub being a possible replacement. I’m assuming a way to hack the old device to turn it into a New hub type device. No specifics have been given that I’ve seen.

The original 2242-222 HUB and the presently sold before the collapse 2245-222 HUB II. Are completely different animals. The 2242-222 has two boards in it  and I have seen a photo where the Ethernet board was replaced with a serial port board. No added data posted here.

The later 2245-222 HUB II is one board with all the functions. I have seen someone here. With an external serial board with wires connected to the inside board. I have seen no connection diagrams but the original poster may have more data for you.

I have seen no information on  the 2243-222 Apple Enabled HUB. Other than it looks the same as a 2245-222 internally.

[Techman]

I think Michel was referring to the Nokia hub which was supposed to be released with the Smarthome Nokia line. Info is attached.

Nokia bridge.pdf Bridge Photo.pdf

[upstatemike]

3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

3. If anyone can figure out how to make Hub II (smaller boxes) into PLMs, that would be a good solution too

With kind regards,
Michel

Both Homeseer and Home Assistant are using old hubs as interfaces (virtual PLMs) but I don't know any details. Is their method not compatible with Polisy?

[vbPhil]

3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Here are some things that are not under NDA:

.........

4. We are still pursuing PLM Pro 

With kind regards,
Michel

My hope is that my serial PLM holds out until the PLM Pro comes out.

[PatPend]

19 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If anything, I can see it stifle innovation. Why work to build a unique ecosystem when someone can just let Google, Amazon, and Crapple do the work

Surely they have our best interests at heart.

[Michel Kohanim]

12 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Both Homeseer and Home Assistant are using old hubs as interfaces (virtual PLMs) but I don't know any details. Is their method not compatible with Polisy?

We could do the same. But, there are multiple issues:

The http socket is not persistent. This means that we either have to basically do away with change of state (i.e. Control) or we have to have another thread that keeps polling the buffer (change of state goes into the buffer). Buffer has to be cleared otherwise we will lose data. So, it becomes an exercise in trial and error in timing especially for larger installations. When exactly do you query/clear? Do you query every second? Wait for some event? 

So, it's just way too much development for something that we have absolutely no control over.

With kind regards,
Michel

[smileyw]

5 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

We could do the same. But, there are multiple issues:

The http socket is not persistent. This means that we either have to basically do away with change of state (i.e. Control) or we have to have another thread that keeps polling the buffer (change of state goes into the buffer). Buffer has to be cleared otherwise we will lose data. So, it becomes an exercise in trial and error in timing especially for larger installations. When exactly do you query/clear? Do you query every second? Wait for some event? 

So, it's just way too much development for something that we have absolutely no control over.

With kind regards,
Michel

This explains so much.  My father in law has a house full of Insteon and a hub (I didn't want to have to support an ISY so I never got him one), and all he uses it for is Echo commands to control the lights.  I got him a Hoobs, it works fine for him, but something seemed off about how it works, and now I see the fundamental difference.  It could never work for my setup.  But I guess if my PLM (and my backup) stopped working, I would probably have no choice.