ZMatter Basic Scene/Associations how to use in v5.5.0

[brians]

I recently upgraded to V5.5.0 and running all my ZWave off ZMatter.

The feature I have been waiting for is here and I show how I got it to work.

In the screenshots, ZY 022 and ZY 023 are Zooz Zen71 switches.

If just add the on-off power switches, it only has the following Command, Default, Ignore and the zwave switches will not control each other at all like before eg. Zooz or ISY994i where the controller made a virtual scene through the ISY.

Looking at show native links for ZY 022 see that it is ZY022_242N002, in my case is the node ZY 022 Basic Assoc Only 2 node

 

Adding those two nodes into the scene enables the Z-Wave Basic MC option and z-wave switches now control each other directly using basic association

You need to have the power switch nodes controlled from the basic assoc 2 nodes, otherwise you will not see the Z-Wave Basic MC option. What is happening is the basic assoc 2 nodes are actually controlling the power switch nodes using basic set commands.

IMPORTANT: don't set the switch controlling to use Z-Wave Basic MC on itself, just the other switch otherwise it ends up switching very slow and reason probably because turning each other on/off multiple times.. NOTE: how I have ZY 022 set to itself in screenshot and  DO NOT DO THIS LIKE I HAVE IN SCREENSHOT ABOVE - default or ignore is desired setting. I do the same for ZY 023 ignoring itself but set for Z-Wave Basic MC for ZY 022.

(To control Insteon devices, must add the scene button nodes and set accordingly - explained in a further post in this thread.)

Some switches may be different and not have these Basic Assoc nodes. Looking at a couple GE and Jasco switches they have these nodes but I have not tested yet. Older Leviton don't have these nodes therefore don't support basic associations. You should be safe with anything newer, and in fact I am going to probably replace my three Leviton switches now, because they also don't even do instant status - time to retire them.

FYI, Basic Set 2 is for on/off and Basic Set 3 is for multilevel eg. dimmers so if have dimmers (I don't) you would add the  Basic Assoc Only 3 to the scene in addition. https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/3858/assoc?noFilename=True

What good it this? In my case now I can have ISY make ZWave devices linked up to turn on/off in a virtual 3-way. The switching is near instantaneous and similar to Insteon scene performance. Not implying it is as good as Insteon scenes (it is not) but it is much better than having the ISY simulating the scene instead by sending all the commands through the controller.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by brians

[Bumbershoot]

@brians, thanks for writing this up.  I've got five Zooz Zen77 dimmers in our primary bathroom, and I am able to use one of them to control the on/off, dim level on the other four.  It works, not quite as neatly as Insteon as you say, but it works. 

Again, thanks!

[brians]

Interested if anyone can test a Zen32 since I returned mine.

[asbril]

Should this work with a motion sensor and a ON/OFF switch ?

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

Should this work with a motion sensor and a ON/OFF switch ?

Yes

[asbril]

My Motion Sensor is Zwave + and has Association, but I do not find a Basic Association Only Node. Same for several switches that I checked. Any guidance ?

ISY-Events-Log.v5.5.0__Fri 2022.12.23 10.27.42 AM.rtf

[brians]

19 minutes ago, asbril said:

My Motion Sensor is Zwave + and has Association, but I do not find a Basic Association Only Node. Same for several switches that I checked. Any guidance ?

ISY-Events-Log.v5.5.0__Fri 2022.12.23 10.27.42 AM.rtf 8.16 kB · 0 downloads

The screenshot shows device with ZW and zmatter uses ZY naming so this tells me you are not moved over to zmatter. When you convert to zmatter you will be able to do those associations. Until then you will not.

[asbril]

3 minutes ago, brians said:

The screenshot shows device with ZW and zmatter uses ZY naming so this tells me you are not moved over to zmatter. When you convert to zmatter you will be able to do those associations. Until then you will not.

Many thanks @briansI had understood that this a capability of 5.5, but now I understand that it is part of ZMatter. As previously commented, I am waiting to use the ZMatter board until the migration procedure has been tested. With my approx 80 ZWave devices, I am not taking risks 😃.  But great to see that you got the ZWave Scene figured out and thanks for sharing.

[Bumbershoot]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

But great to see that you got the ZWave Scene figured out and thanks for sharing.

Back in the day when I first installed my Zooz stick, I got associations working with an Aeotec Multisensor 6 and a Zooz Zen76 switch.  You might have another look at this thread:

 

[asbril]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:36 AM, brians said:

I recently upgraded to V5.5.0 and running all my ZWave off ZMatter.

The feature I have been waiting for is here and I show how I got it to work.

In the screenshots, ZY 022 and ZY 023 are Zooz Zen71 switches.

If just add the on-off power switches, it only has the following Command, Default, Ignore and the zwave switches will not control each other at all like before eg. Zooz or ISY994i where the controller made a virtual scene through the ISY.

Looking at show native links for ZY 022 see that it is ZY022_242N002, in my case is the node ZY 022 Basic Assoc Only 2 node

Adding those two nodes into the scene enables the Z-Wave Basic MC option and z-wave switches now control each other directly using basic association

 

It is IMPORTANT that you have all four nodes in scene, otherwise you will not see the Z-Wave Basic MC option.

Also don't set the switch controlling to use Z-Wave Basic MC on itself, just the other switch otherwise it ends up switching very slow and reason probably because turning each other on/off multiple times.. note how I have ZY 022 set to ignore in screenshot but default also seems to work. I do the same for ZY 023 ignoring itself but Z-Wave Basic MC for ZY 022.

When adding the ZY 022 Basic Assoc Only 2 nodes to the scene, they automatically are selected as controllers. You can leave the On-Off Power Switch as responders. However, if want to do some other type of scene controlling Insteon maybe need to set them as controller also. I haven't tested a zwave switch acting as a controller in a scene for insteon... but have done the other way around with  insteon acting as a controller to turn on/off a zwave device where ISY fakes the scene by going through the controller (I use keypadlinc buttons to turn on/off zwave outlets for things like lamps, xmas tree etc.).

Some switches may be different and not have these Basic Assoc nodes. Looking at a couple GE and Jasco switches they have these nodes but I have not tested yet. Older Leviton don't have these nodes therefore don't support basic associations. You should be safe with anything newer, and in fact I am going to probably replace my three Leviton switches now, because they also don't even do instant status - time to retire them.

FYI, Basic Set 2 is for on/off and Basic Set 3 is for multilevel eg. dimmers so if have dimmers (I don't) you would add the  Basic Assoc Only 3 to the scene in addition. https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/3858/assoc?noFilename=True

What good it this? In my case now I can have ISY make ZWave devices linked up to turn on/off in a virtual 3-way. The switching is near instantaneous and similar to Insteon scene performance. Not implying it is as good as Insteon scenes (it is not) but it is much better than having the ISY simulating the scene instead by sending all the commands through the controller.

 

I can't seem to delete this screenshot so ignore it... it is an incorrect example of setting Z-Wave Basic MC on itself which I mention not to do above.

 

Hi @brians

I must admit that I don't fully understand your instructions.

In my eisy with ZMatter board and 5.5.2 I added a motion sensor and a lamp switch to a scene, but I don't see the Basic Association node.

Not having Insteon I am not fully familiar with how scenes work. A lot of what you mention in your instructions, I do not recognize/find in my Administrative Console.

Can you give me some hints ?

[brians]

4 hours ago, asbril said:

Hi @brians

I must admit that I don't fully understand your instructions.

In my eisy with ZMatter board and 5.5.2 I added a motion sensor and a lamp switch to a scene, but I don't see the Basic Association node.

Not having Insteon I am not fully familiar with how scenes work. A lot of what you mention in your instructions, I do not recognize/find in my Administrative Console.

Can you give me some hints ?

I found one of my sensors has basic set so I added to test scene and took screenshot for you.

Select the Basic Control on Left eg. ZY016 Basic Control
Select the device you want to control (Responder) on right side eg. ZY023 On-Off Power Switch
Click on the pulldown that is Default and select Z-Wave Basic
Then click update.

 

[brians]

@asbril please let us know if that works turning the lamp on with Motion. I am wondering that it may turn the lamp off when motion is off however - be interesting to see. Maybe there is a parameter that sets this behaviour.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by brians

[asbril]

11 minutes ago, brians said:

@asbril please let us know if that works turning the lamp on with Motion. I am wondering that it may turn the lamp off when motion is off however - be interesting to see. Maybe there is a parameter that sets this behaviour.

 

 

I tried with a spare sensor that I had and it did indeed switch the lamp ON, but whatever reason the sensor remained on ON and I was not able to fully test. I will have to wait till the migration when I will have more sensors on eisy and ZMatter.

I removed and re-added the sensor aeveral times (which puts it in factory default) but same ON all the time.

[brians]

6 minutes ago, asbril said:

I tried with a spare sensor that I had and it did indeed switch the lamp ON, but whatever reason the sensor remained on ON and I was not able to fully test. I will have to wait till the migration when I will have more sensors on eisy and ZMatter.

I removed and re-added the sensor aeveral times (which puts it in factory default) but same ON all the time.

What is the brand and model of the sensor? It may have a timeout which keeps it on for several minutes especially if it is a battery sensor.

For example, here is what my ancient Insteon wireless sensor does:

WHEN MOTION IS SENSED
1.When motion is sensed the Motion Sensor will send an “On” command to up to 32 linked INSTEON responders and flash it’s LED (unless it is daytime and unit is in night-only mode)
2.Sensor will begin a 1 minute countdown
3. Whenever motion is sensed during countdown, the countdown will be reset to 1 minute to easily allow you to create “occupied” versus unoccupied modes for your home.
4. When countdown expires the Sensor will send an “Off” command to all linked responders (unless it is in on-only mode)

Edited January 6, 2023 by brians

[asbril]

4 minutes ago, brians said:

What is the brand and model of the sensor? It may have a timeout which keeps it on for several minutes especially if it is a battery sensor.

For example, here is what my ancient Insteon wireless sensor does:

WHEN MOTION IS SENSED
1.When motion is sensed the Motion Sensor will send an “On” command to up to 32 linked INSTEON responders and flash it’s LED (unless it is daytime and unit is in night-only mode)
2.Sensor will begin a 1 minute countdown
3. Whenever motion is sensed during countdown, the countdown will be reset to 1 minute to easily allow you to create “occupied” versus unoccupied modes for your home.
4. When countdown expires the Sensor will send an “Off” command to all linked responders (unless it is in on-only mode)

ZWAve Plus Ecoline. I changed the setting to test which supposedly makes it stay ON  for a few seconds only.  I will try again when I have some time.

[jaydrosy]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:36 AM, brians said:

When adding the ZY 022 Basic Assoc Only 2 nodes to the scene, they automatically are selected as controllers. You can leave the On-Off Power Switch as responders. However, if want to do some other type of scene controlling Insteon maybe need to set them as controller also. I haven't tested a zwave switch acting as a controller in a scene for insteon... but have done the other way around with  insteon acting as a controller to turn on/off a zwave device where ISY fakes the scene by going through the controller (I use keypadlinc buttons to turn on/off zwave outlets for things like lamps, xmas tree etc.).

Your tutorial was exceptionally helpful to me in figuring out how to configure my existing virtual 3- and 4-way switches, some of which have the load controlled by the Z-Wave and with older Insteon switches as remotes, and some of which are the other way around.  It took some tinkering but I finally figured it out.  The "Scene Button 1" zwave sub reads the top paddle push, "Scene Button 2" the bottom.  Setting those as controllers for the insteon switches did the trick.  Just fyi Scene Button 1 can be set to default.  Scene Button 2 needs to send an "off" command to the insteon.  Set the zwave switch to ignore both Scene Button 1 and Scene Button 2 so it can do it's own thing locally.

 

(Recognizing this might not be 100% clear.  I can add to it later with images if it would be helpful to people.  I'd also be interested in hearing if others have better ways of doing this as it is a bit clunky.  I kind of liked the "old" way where ISY would handle everything at the controller to virtualize a scene)

Edited January 10, 2023 by jaydrosy

[brians]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:56 AM, jaydrosy said:

Your tutorial was exceptionally helpful to me in figuring out how to configure my existing virtual 3- and 4-way switches, some of which have the load controlled by the Z-Wave and with older Insteon switches as remotes, and some of which are the other way around.  It took some tinkering but I finally figured it out.  The "Scene Button 1" zwave sub reads the top paddle push, "Scene Button 2" the bottom.  Setting those as controllers for the insteon switches did the trick.  Just fyi Scene Button 1 can be set to default.  Scene Button 2 needs to send an "off" command to the insteon.  Set the zwave switch to ignore both Scene Button 1 and Scene Button 2 so it can do it's own thing locally.

 

(Recognizing this might not be 100% clear.  I can add to it later with images if it would be helpful to people.  I'd also be interested in hearing if others have better ways of doing this as it is a bit clunky.  I kind of liked the "old" way where ISY would handle everything at the controller to virtualize a scene)

I tried this and works good. On my Zen71 I had to set parameter 9 to 1 which enables scene buttons then it started working. I set button 1 command to on and button 2 command to off for an Insteon switchlinc. I found most other nodes have to be set to ignore the scene buttons otherwise the scene buttons may turn on devices you don't want on.

One can even make old style pre-zmatter slower zwave scenes this way which go through the IoX controller (ie. central scene) instead of using basic associations (which are direct switch-to-switch) if need to for whatever reason - maybe an older zwave device want to turn on/off from another that doesn't support direct accociations.

I recommend using basic association between Z-Wave devices wherever possible since it is much faster - in a virtual 3-way test, is as fast as Insteon on my Zen71s (other ZWave brands/models may vary). When controlling Insteon from Zen71, as describe previously using scene buttons, it is slower than insteon-to-insteon or zwave-to-zwave, but not that bad since IoX receives a command on ZWave, it is able to send it out Insteon right away. In comparison, when controlling ZWave form ZWave the same way using central scene (through IoX) only, it is significantly slower because of ZWave network overhead ACK, having to wait for ZWave network to be available  before it sends to command to other switch.

I added screenshot how the scene buttons on Zen71 switch ZY 022 work to control Insteon device named "Stairs", and also control  another Zen71 switch ZY 023 using Basic Set. The other ZY 023 is set similarly in scene except its Basic Set is controlling ZY 022 of course. There is not one Node to control all, must use multiple nodes now with ZMatter.

Remember that ZWave scene commands send an On command.
On Zen71 switch:

Scene Button 1 = top paddle
Scene Button 2 = bottom paddle

Program the scene so:

The top paddle Scene Button 1 sends an Insteon On to Stairs
The bottom paddle Scene Button 2 sends and Insteon OFF to Stairs.

There is no equivalent of a default where it will turn on/off automatically when controlling this way, must handle both cases for pressing top or bottom paddle.

NOTE: Both on-off power switches are set to ignore scene commands, otherwise the scene will turn on these switches by default from a scene command. Although, you can set these to same way as the Insteon Stairs with a Command On or Off to use old method of central scene I mention above, this is not desirable because I have the ZWave setup together using basic association and having both methods could cause confusion of the switches.

Therefore, in this scene, I have two Zen71 setup using basic set to turn each other directly on/off and also each one turns the Insteon Stairs switch on/off using separate scene button nodes.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by brians

[trevorst]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:57 AM, brians said:

The screenshot shows device with ZW and zmatter uses ZY naming so this tells me you are not moved over to zmatter. When you convert to zmatter you will be able to do those associations. Until then you will not.

This may be my problem as all but two of my devices are ZW, how do I convert them?

[brians]

12 minutes ago, trevorst said:

This may be my problem as all but two of my devices are ZW, how do I convert them?

Oh, I never did the migration but as I understand, devices that do not migrate correctly stay around as ZW xxx. I would ask for help in the appropriate migration forum.

[GJ Software Products]

@briansHere's what the ZEN32 looks like in my eisy on the Z-Wave Matter module:

I'm just trapping the button press events in a program & using them to turn stuff on and off.  I've never really understood/figured out how to use Associations.  

[brians]

52 minutes ago, GJ Software Products said:

@briansHere's what the ZEN32 looks like in my eisy on the Z-Wave Matter module:

I'm just trapping the button press events in a program & using them to turn stuff on and off.  I've never really understood/figured out how to use Associations.  

Thanks. Does it still change the on off status of the main switch (without actually turning it on ir off) if you press the smaller buttons? Or are they discrete now. This is what I didn’t like before because couldn’t accurately use main button in a scene then by itself. 
 

Basic associations are a new thing but I tbink with zmatter api for zwave now you should be able to use the four buttons in scenes properly now in addition to programs.

[trevorst]

Not sure what you are talking about as my GE switches only have a paddle on/off.

[asbril]

When I have more time, I am going to delve in the new ZMatter Zwave Scene possibilities. In the meantime I have (re) added my Zooz Zen 34 switches.

Before the migration, these has Scene nodes, but now only 3 nodes :

How would I use these to control in a Scene or in a Program ?

What I had before migration, was, in a Program,  when the Up click was activated than light X went ON, and when Down click was activated than light X went OFF. No idea how to do that without Scene nodes.

[GJ Software Products]

12 hours ago, brians said:

Thanks. Does it still change the on off status of the main switch (without actually turning it on ir off) if you press the smaller buttons? Or are they discrete now. This is what I didn’t like before because couldn’t accurately use main button in a scene then by itself. 
 

Basic associations are a new thing but I tbink with zmatter api for zwave now you should be able to use the four buttons in scenes properly now in addition to programs.

@brians I disabled control of the main switch using parameter 19 (&20).  I've got 5 discrete buttons that I can trap a button press event on and I have programs to maintain the value of a state variable on or off and turn the LEDs on and off:

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by GJ Software Products

[asbril]

On 1/5/2023 at 7:06 PM, brians said:

@asbril please let us know if that works turning the lamp on with Motion. I am wondering that it may turn the lamp off when motion is off however - be interesting to see. Maybe there is a parameter that sets this behaviour.

 

 

I now fully migrated to ZMatter on eisy and created  a test scene with a motion sensor and a light.

These are the available nodes for the sensor :

and these are the nodes for the light:

 

 

 

I don't see the nodes that you mentioned above.