Two Good ZMatter pre-migration questions

[ShawnW]

Both these questions were asked by @johnnyt in the baby steps post but they didn't get answered and the post was closed. These are great questions that I would LOVE to know the answer to as I'm in the exact same situation (still using 994 but Polisy with ZMatter is waiting to go and I'm just stalling on the migration). 

If anyone can answer these would be a great help:

[ after setting up ZMatter on Polisy and installing a few Z_wave devices to test it, then...]

" My 1st question there is related to the ISY migration instructions (for later) that said "do not install zmatter board until told to do so". Just to confirm - does that mean when I'm ready to migrate 994i to IoP I'll have to uninstall the zmatter board then reinstall it when told to do so, or was that step (or should I say delayed step) just to get through the addition of some core 5.5.x new stuff and not applicable anymore?

And second, would the devices I had linked to IoP/Zmatter show up after the migration, or will everything on the zmatter board get overwritten (or the board get factory reset) by the ISY migration process? It would be nice if they remained connected as it would offer the possibility of setting up a bunch of things before I migrate that I could actually use after I migrate without having to uninstall (exclude) and reinstall (re-include) those devices and lose the device IDs I had used in programs. I know (or at least think) any programs would be overwritten so I would just export those then import them after the migration. "

THX

[Geddy]

1 hour ago, ShawnW said:

Both these questions were asked by @johnnyt in the baby steps post but they didn't get answered and the post was closed.

Not sure what questions didn't get answered in the post you mention. All questions were answered then the thread had additional posts about unrelated items; yes, it was locked.

1 hour ago, ShawnW said:

My 1st question

What's your question? It's hidden and more of a statement. 

As answered in the @johnnyt post - you can run Polisy (or eisy) and still control your ISY994 with node servers.

Your issue seems to be uncertainty around ZMatter/Z-wave - You can run Z-wave through ZMatter on the Polisy/eisy, but note that you would need to control that with IoX running on the Polisy/eisy. Your ISY99 would NOT control Z-wave because it would not be controlled by the ISY994 device. You have 2 different hubs controlling 2 different systems. 

Do you currently have Z-Wave board on your ISY994 and controlling Z-Wave items? Do you want to "migrate" them to Polisy/ZMatter? I don't know what your real question is there as it's hidden in a bunch of strange statements. Maybe link to the statements that you're quoting (or attempting to quote). It would help anybody reading your post.

1 hour ago, ShawnW said:

And second, would the devices I had linked to IoP/Zmatter show up after the migration, or will everything on the zmatter board get overwritten (or the board get factory reset) by the ISY migration process?

I guess the answer to this is what are you migrating? Do you have Z-Wave devices on the ISY994 that you're migrating? You never clearly identify what you're migrating. 

 

The migration process is fairly simple on the surface consideration. Sure, the process has some flaws, but they're being worked out.

• ISY994 Insteon Migration - moves ONLY Insteon devices to IoX
   
• Z-Wave Migration - moves ONLY Z-Wave devices to ZMatter

If you're trying to run a partial system in the new Polisy+ZMatter then I would not suggest that you later try to migrate Z-Wave from something else to ZMatter because you would have an existing setup that would be overwritten. That's fairly simple when you think of migrating. If you migrate an existing system into another existing system the later is overwritten by the new migration process. 

If you are NOT running any Z-Wave on the ISY994 and only Insteon then you would just migrate the Insteon devices to Polisy/IoX. That would not overwrite anything you have setup on ZMatter. In that process you are only restoring the Insteon backup made from the ISY994.

From my own experience: I am currently running the eisy. I started using ZWave with the eisy and installed ZMatter and added two (2) Z-Wave outlets. I then migrated my ISY994 to IoX. I only had Insteon devices on my ISY994. I moved the Serial PLM over with the USB to Serial Connector cord (similar to the kit offered by UDI) restored my backup and checked everything out. It was very simple at the time I attempted the process. I believe the whole process took about 30 minutes because I took my time (and needed to relocate the eisy to where the ISY994 was previously). I think my migration was around IoX 5.5.3 just for version information.

I later took my Polisy to my father-in-law's house and performed an ISY994 to IoX (on Polisy) migration for a simple install in less than 20 minutes. His IoX version was 5.5.4 during the migration process. 

Based on my recent experience it's quite simple. Sure, there might be some issues now with IoX 5.5.5 so don't press the "upgrade packages" button at the moment. At least not until we hear more from UDI about a release (this issue is being discussed elsewhere so let's keep that discussion in the support thread). 

If this doesn't answer your "questions" please rephrase your questions without the useless statements. Or at least link to the quotes you're inserting so we can read the context that you're pulling them from.

 

[ShawnW]

1 hour ago, Geddy said:

Not sure what questions didn't get answered in the post you mention. All questions were answered then the thread had additional posts about unrelated items; yes, it was locked.

What's your question? It's hidden and more of a statement. 

As answered in the @johnnyt post - you can run Polisy (or eisy) and still control your ISY994 with node servers.

Your issue seems to be uncertainty around ZMatter/Z-wave - You can run Z-wave through ZMatter on the Polisy/eisy, but note that you would need to control that with IoX running on the Polisy/eisy. Your ISY99 would NOT control Z-wave because it would not be controlled by the ISY994 device. You have 2 different hubs controlling 2 different systems. 

Do you currently have Z-Wave board on your ISY994 and controlling Z-Wave items? Do you want to "migrate" them to Polisy/ZMatter? I don't know what your real question is there as it's hidden in a bunch of strange statements. Maybe link to the statements that you're quoting (or attempting to quote). It would help anybody reading your post.

I guess the answer to this is what are you migrating? Do you have Z-Wave devices on the ISY994 that you're migrating? You never clearly identify what you're migrating. 

 

The migration process is fairly simple on the surface consideration. Sure, the process has some flaws, but they're being worked out.

• ISY994 Insteon Migration - moves ONLY Insteon devices to IoX
   
• Z-Wave Migration - moves ONLY Z-Wave devices to ZMatter

If you're trying to run a partial system in the new Polisy+ZMatter then I would not suggest that you later try to migrate Z-Wave from something else to ZMatter because you would have an existing setup that would be overwritten. That's fairly simple when you think of migrating. If you migrate an existing system into another existing system the later is overwritten by the new migration process. 

If you are NOT running any Z-Wave on the ISY994 and only Insteon then you would just migrate the Insteon devices to Polisy/IoX. That would not overwrite anything you have setup on ZMatter. In that process you are only restoring the Insteon backup made from the ISY994.

From my own experience: I am currently running the eisy. I started using ZWave with the eisy and installed ZMatter and added two (2) Z-Wave outlets. I then migrated my ISY994 to IoX. I only had Insteon devices on my ISY994. I moved the Serial PLM over with the USB to Serial Connector cord (similar to the kit offered by UDI) restored my backup and checked everything out. It was very simple at the time I attempted the process. I believe the whole process took about 30 minutes because I took my time (and needed to relocate the eisy to where the ISY994 was previously). I think my migration was around IoX 5.5.3 just for version information.

I later took my Polisy to my father-in-law's house and performed an ISY994 to IoX (on Polisy) migration for a simple install in less than 20 minutes. His IoX version was 5.5.4 during the migration process. 

Based on my recent experience it's quite simple. Sure, there might be some issues now with IoX 5.5.5 so don't press the "upgrade packages" button at the moment. At least not until we hear more from UDI about a release (this issue is being discussed elsewhere so let's keep that discussion in the support thread). 

If this doesn't answer your "questions" please rephrase your questions without the useless statements. Or at least link to the quotes you're inserting so we can read the context that you're pulling them from.

 

Wow. Not sure what you mean by 'useless statements' and 'hidden questions', or why you say it like that, but let me see if I can start over (I had copied @johnnyt 's (followup) questions exactly as he wrote them, but will I will rewrite them here in my words and with more background info). 

Background - currently have a 994i with 500 Z-W board, a couple dozen Z-Wave devices installed on it, and probably 80 Insteon devices as well. I also have a Polisy and have already physically installed the ZMatter board, currently running 5.5.5 but have ONLY installed a few Z-Wave devices onto that Polisy/ZMatter. I did this originally just to test everything to make sure IoX and ZMatter were working (all seemed to work well), but now bring up these 2 new questions about finally migrating all remaining Insteon & ZW devices from the 994i to the Polisy/ZMatter:  

#1 - the ISY migration instructions say "do not install zmatter board until told to do so". Since I’ve already installed & tested it, does this mean that when I start my “main” migration of 994i with 500ZW to IoP that I'll have to uninstall the zmatter board, then reinstall it when told to do so in the migration instructions? (or possibly something else like factory reset the ZMatter board?)

#2 - to put it as simply as possible, does the migration from an ISY994i w 500ZW overwrite any Zwave devices that are already installed on the Polisy/ZMatter, OR, does the migration ADD all the ZWave devices from the ISY994i w 500ZW to the ZWave devices already installed on the Polisy/ZMatter? 

I too would have assumed that any migration would overwrite anything existing on the Polisy/ZM, but I can also see it possible (speaking generally and theoretically) that it would simply add the ISY/ZW devices rather than overwrite them, so felt it was a worthwhile question. 

Thank you all in helping me replace my assumptions with confirmed answers.

Cheers!

[DennisC]

13 minutes ago, ShawnW said:

Wow. Not sure what you mean by 'useless statements' and 'hidden questions', or why you say it like that, but let me see if I can start over (I had copied @johnnyt 's (followup) questions exactly as he wrote them, but will I will rewrite them here in my words and with more background info). 

Background - currently have a 994i with 500 Z-W board, a couple dozen Z-Wave devices installed on it, and probably 80 Insteon devices as well. I also have a Polisy and have already physically installed the ZMatter board, currently running 5.5.5 but have ONLY installed a few Z-Wave devices onto that Polisy/ZMatter. I did this originally just to test everything to make sure IoX and ZMatter were working (all seemed to work well), but now bring up these 2 new questions about finally migrating all remaining Insteon & ZW devices from the 994i to the Polisy/ZMatter:  

#1 - the ISY migration instructions say "do not install zmatter board until told to do so". Since I’ve already installed & tested it, does this mean that when I start my “main” migration of 994i with 500ZW to IoP that I'll have to uninstall the zmatter board, then reinstall it when told to do so in the migration instructions? (or possibly something else like factory reset the ZMatter board?)

#2 - to put it as simply as possible, does the migration from an ISY994i w 500ZW overwrite any Zwave devices that are already installed on the Polisy/ZMatter, OR, does the migration ADD all the ZWave devices from the ISY994i w 500ZW to the ZWave devices already installed on the Polisy/ZMatter? 

I too would have assumed that any migration would overwrite anything existing on the Polisy/ZM, but I can also see it possible (speaking generally and theoretically) that it would simply add the ISY/ZW devices rather than overwrite them, so felt it was a worthwhile question. 

Thank you all in helping me replace my assumptions with confirmed answers.

Cheers!

All of your questions are answered in the wiki Migration document located here:

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Eisy:User_Guide#Migration

This document is upgraded regularly, so make sure you are looking at the latest.

1. Since you are going from ISY to Polisy, if you read the specific instructions for that upgrade, you are not doing anything until you are ready to install the migration backup from your ISY, other than upgrading and backing up Polisy. Just leave the Zwave support box unchecked unt you are told to make sure it is checked.

You can certainly factory reset your current ZMatter board on the Polisy to be safe.

2. According to the instructions, yes, you will loose what was already added to Polisy when you restore your ISY migration backup to Polisy.

You are migrating one system to another, not "adding to".

As an aside, I would wait until the current upgrade packages issue is resolved before migrating. You want to make sure you are on the current version for both systems when you migrate and right now there is an issue with upgrade packages.

[ShawnW]

17 hours ago, DennisC said:

All of your questions are answered in the wiki Migration document located here:

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Eisy:User_Guide#Migration

This document is upgraded regularly, so make sure you are looking at the latest.

1. Since you are going from ISY to Polisy, if you read the specific instructions for that upgrade, you are not doing anything until you are ready to install the migration backup from your ISY, other than upgrading and backing up Polisy. Just leave the Zwave support box unchecked unt you are told to make sure it is checked.

You can certainly factory reset your current ZMatter board on the Polisy to be safe.

2. According to the instructions, yes, you will loose what was already added to Polisy when you restore your ISY migration backup to Polisy.

You are migrating one system to another, not "adding to".

As an aside, I would wait until the current upgrade packages issue is resolved before migrating. You want to make sure you are on the current version for both systems when you migrate and right now there is an issue with upgrade packages.

Thank you @DennisC .

[johnnyt]

Thank you @ShawnW for re-asking the questions that got buried in my "Baby Steps" thread, which was closed before they could be answered. In fairness I should have started a "Baby Steps 2" post for them because I was looking ahead beyond the plain OS-only upgrade I was asking about in my original post.

I know people are quick to say "RTFM - it's all there" but the manual, which I did read, 
    1) covers 3 variations of hardware
    2) covers do-it-all-at-once migration, which is not what I want to do
    3) has so many extra steps not typically not seen in s/w upgrades that vary by hardware variation (different number of button pushes, long waits, reboots, then power cycles, then install board, then reboot again, then possibly uninstall board (still not clear on that), then load this or that, then reinstall board, etc.)

Now add to the above a still alpha release upgrade process that has significant bugs and inevitably one wonders 'is there a bug or is it a missed step?' I don't think anyone should tell anyone to RTFM for asking that some things be confirmed for their particular combination by others who have more experience with the migration. Just confirm or deny them. If you want to add the reference go ahead, but consider skipping the lecture for all the reasons mentioned here.

So the answer is clear that the zmatter board gets overwritten as opposed to the very valid concept of adding or appending. Note that the instructions do say "A migration backup is different than a regular backup". So not crazy to think (hope, actually) that maybe an append was being done. At any rate it really helps knowing this with certainty.

I'm still not quite clear on what has been confirmed to work for the situation where the zmatter board has already been been installed for pre-migration testing. Maybe I just ended up cross-eyed reading the various do-it-all-at-once instructions, but, sorry, I'm not seeing where this particular scenario is covered. 

An interesting possibly was mentioned by @DennisC that would certainly make things easier. He says "Just leave the Zwave support box unchecked until you are told to make sure it is checked." Does that work? DennisC, have you done it this way yourself? Has anyone? 

"Add board" (found in the instructions) has different implications than "check box". The former has low level OS impact while the latter is an IoP logical concept. Given the complexity/fragility of the upgrade process, I would really like some confirmation that I can have the board in for my testing and all I will need to do is uncheck "Zwave support" box before I start the migration process. Then , when the instructions say "add board", I just need to check the box and reboot, as implied by what would happen if I was to add the board at that point.

Any info that confirms or corrects this would be appreciated.

[DennisC]

10 minutes ago, johnnyt said:

Thank you @ShawnW for re-asking the questions that got buried in my "Baby Steps" thread, which was closed before they could be answered. In fairness I should have started a "Baby Steps 2" post for them because I was looking ahead beyond the plain OS-only upgrade I was asking about in my original post.

I know people are quick to say "RTFM - it's all there" but the manual, which I did read, 
    1) covers 3 variations of hardware
    2) covers do-it-all-at-once migration, which is not what I want to do
    3) has so many extra steps not typically not seen in s/w upgrades that vary by hardware variation (different number of button pushes, long waits, reboots, then power cycles, then install board, then reboot again, then possibly uninstall board (still not clear on that), then load this or that, then reinstall board, etc.)

Now add to the above a still alpha release upgrade process that has significant bugs and inevitably one wonders 'is there a bug or is it a missed step?' I don't think anyone should tell anyone to RTFM for asking that some things be confirmed for their particular combination by others who have more experience with the migration. Just confirm or deny them. If you want to add the reference go ahead, but consider skipping the lecture for all the reasons mentioned here.

So the answer is clear that the zmatter board gets overwritten as opposed to the very valid concept of adding or appending. Note that the instructions do say "A migration backup is different than a regular backup". So not crazy to think (hope, actually) that maybe an append was being done. At any rate it really helps knowing this with certainty.

I'm still not quite clear on what has been confirmed to work for the situation where the zmatter board has already been been installed for pre-migration testing. Maybe I just ended up cross-eyed reading the various do-it-all-at-once instructions, but, sorry, I'm not seeing where this particular scenario is covered. 

An interesting possibly was mentioned by @DennisC that would certainly make things easier. He says "Just leave the Zwave support box unchecked until you are told to make sure it is checked." Does that work? DennisC, have you done it this way yourself? Has anyone? 

"Add board" (found in the instructions) has different implications than "check box". The former has low level OS impact while the latter is an IoP logical concept. Given the complexity/fragility of the upgrade process, I would really like some confirmation that I can have the board in for my testing and all I will need to do is uncheck "Zwave support" box before I start the migration process. Then , when the instructions say "add board", I just need to check the box and reboot, as implied by what would happen if I was to add the board at that point.

Any info that confirms or corrects this would be appreciated.

Having the board installed was the initial issue with the migration in early January. The latter upgrades corrected the problem of the board already being installed. If it makes you feel better, take it out and then reinstall it when told. Just make sure you use the latest directions, as they are constantly being updated.

If you are still unsure about how to proceed, why not send the same question to UD support and ask if you can leave the board in with the check box unchecked?

[johnnyt]

What makes me feel better is confirmation that I don't have to pull the board once I've put it in. 

If all else fails I would ask UD support but I don't want to bug them with questions I figure could be answered in the forum. They have their hands full right now. Add to this the fact that others with the same question will also avoid bugging UD support and it just seemed like the better thing to do.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, johnnyt said:

What makes me feel better is confirmation that I don't have to pull the board once I've put it in. 

If all else fails I would ask UD support but I don't want to bug them with questions I figure could be answered in the forum. They have their hands full right now. Add to this the fact that others with the same question will also avoid bugging UD support and it just seemed like the better thing to do.

That's part of the problem which adds to the confusion. You have multiple people asking the same questions in different ways which receives the same information in different ways. 

This isn't the isy which has been around for 10+ years. Every single person using zmatter and eisy are using it for the first time together. The main ones that tend to help are also the ones who jump feet first into the fire so they're limited in regards to helping those who are hesitant and wanting to take baby steps (I'm sure that applies to udi as well) as they're building things for those who are trying to jump into things wholely or do a completely new install vs piecemeal. 

Reality is, the system isn't ready for prime time unless you're starting from scratch. You're not getting a plug and play type of system at this moment. Anyone hesitant to break their system or spend time rebuilding things should probably sit this round (or the next few) out. 

Taking baby steps or needing hand holding will probably cause more headaches and problems than it solves. Especially when you consider the time wasted. 

For example, look at this question that was asked. We're still on it 5 days later. Even with being busy, udi couldve answered a support call much faster. Hell, depending on skills, the op could've rebuilt his entire system in this time (especially if he took time to take note of his programs and previous setups). 

I get the hesitation. I completely understand the reasonings behind it. However, if you're not ready to commit, you're probably better off waiting for things to be stable and then proceeding.