Replace device feature

[Guy Lavoie]

Many of the handy features in IoX are those for maintaining and upgrading an installation. I'm talking about things like restore device, PLM replacement process, replace switch with... etc. I've just had the pleasure of using the replace feature to upgrade several switches to dual band models. One constraint is that it only allows replacing a switch with one of the same type (dimmer with dimmer, on/off with on/off). It would be handy if this feature also allowed replacing one with the other type. It could list the differing type switches at the bottom of the list, and selecting one could pop up a message warning that this is a different type, and that adjustments might be needed in programs and scenes. Sometimes you only want to replace a switch that is used as a 3 way slave, so it doesn't matter what type it is. Or simply don't need the dimming feature anymore in a location and want to reuse it elsewhere. Economics and availibility.

Food for UDI thought.

[Geddy]

@Guy Lavoie I think if that were possible it would have been achieved a long time ago. I'm sure this has to have been a request (or many) somewhere along the way. It might be an issue within the Insteon technology and rather than risk breaking something keeping it simple in the ISY/IoX world of things to only be able to replace like devices. Certainly something you could pose directly to UDI using their contact us from the web: https://www.universal-devices.com/contact-us/

It might be something those that have been around a lot longer (like @Brian H or @IndyMike) would have knowhow of if this is an Insteon limitation or indeed just a limited ISY/IoX situation. Maybe even @lilyoyo1 might have some insight. Just a few names that I know have the history and certainly more insight to the underlying technology (in a non-official way anyway).

[Guy Lavoie]

2 minutes ago, Geddy said:

@Guy Lavoie I think if that were possible it would have been achieved a long time ago. I'm sure this has to have been a request (or many) somewhere along the way. 

 

It might be something those that have been around a lot longer (like @Brian H or @IndyMike) would have knowhow of if this is an Insteon limitation or indeed just a limited ISY/IoX situation. Maybe even @lilyoyo1 might have some insight.

Well, let's just see if these guys chime in, or if they have a workaround process, or a systematic procedure.

Thanks.

[Brian H]

I have not seen one but it maybe possible.

I know by trying. Replacement of a 2456S3 Appliancelinc with a 2635-222 Dual Band On/Off module did not work. On my ISY994i. My thoughts are since the new module is Dual Band. Has extra features that just exchange it would not work correctly. The 2456S3 is a responder only while the 2635-222 can also be a controller. While an Icon 2856S3 or the X10AM466 ( was made during the X10 bankruptcy  by the old Smarthome and was really a 2856S3 labelled )can be used in place of a 2456S3.

Edited Thursday at 11:40 PM by Brian H
Add things.

[IndyMike]

I'm going to echo @Brian H's comments.  I do not have a workaround.  This has been requested in years past, and it's likely on a "to do" list somewhere.  Unfortunately, it's a long list...

As a test, I did try manually linking a 2456S3 Appliancelinc as a 2457D2 LampLinc.  This would have allowed me to replace the existing LampLinc with the ApplianceLinc.  In short - I lied to the ISY.

The ISY994 correctly identified the ApplianceLinc and linked correctly for the device.  In other words, the ISY outsmarted me.

When the UDI team first came out with the Replace feature, it was a boon to the community.  SmartLabs devices were having some teething issues with power supply and paddle switch failures that mandated early replacements.  KPL power supply issues were particularly painful.  Replacing an 8 button KPL could easily wind up being an all day affair depending on the number of scenes and programs involved.  The ISY (ISY26 or ISY99??) paid for itself the 1st time I used the replace feature.    

While I'll admit that there have been times where an "unrestricted" replace might have been useful, these were few and far between.  The UDI team has done many amazing things given their resources but, in the end, they are a small shop.  Since the early Insteon days they have branched out to Z-wave, Zigbee, and now Matter.  Focusing on new device definitions for the expanded protocols (likely) has much higher ROI.  

 

[Brian H]

The modules have a Category and Subcategory ID assigned to each model Insteon module. Some may have more than one Subcategory. For revisions. Like software versions and features. Like original I1,I2 or I2CS.

My thoughts are they check the ID of the module you are trying to install and found it was an ApplianceLinc not a LampLinc.

[Guy Lavoie]

Ok, thanks for confirming that I'm not missing out on a trick or workaround. I guess the manual procedure would be to:

1- Start by going over every scene that involves the device to replace, and noting if it's a controller or responder, and remove the device from the scene(s).

2- Then going over the programs using the search feature for any programs using the device. What happens if you delete a device that is still referenced in a program? Possible corruption? If so, then delete the lines and note where they were in each program. Otherwise correct the programs once the replacement device is added.

3- Delete the old device and add the new one

4 - Add the device to the scenes and programs that were found in steps 1 and 2

Would that make sense? Anything else, or done differently?

[lilyoyo1]

Given enough time, money, and effort, I think its possible for this to be done. The issue is with those three things. Is the ROI worth it for something with limited use....Probably not. Since the insteon API doesn't have that built into it, UDI will need to do all of the programming to make it happen. Given the route that they've taken in regards to multiple protocols, this is exponentially much greater since you could replace an insteon relay switch with a Zwave relay, and then turn around and use a zigbee dimmer.

Reality is, if a device requires a relay switch from the start, it will probably require a relay switch should it go out. If the frequency/quantity/need of items that needs to be replaced is high then I could see it being worth it from a business standpoint. For a controller that costs app. $300 bucks, its probably not. Consumer yes. Business, no. 

I've never had to replace devices on a large scale. If I did, I would've simply rebuilt the scenes by adding all of the responders first, configuring the scene, then add the controllers (after removing those from the original scene). Unfortunately, there isn't a quick way for single devices or programs with individually listed devices (which is part of why I used to use scenes for everything). This way, If I ever have to replace a device, when I update the scene,the program is automatically updated.